Brazilian jiu jitsu and judo

My daughter did BJJ for a few years and then got out of it because of illness. I have always wanted to do it but my shoulders just won't allow it. Ed O'Neil is probably the best story of why it's a good skill to have. If it's good enough for Al Bundy it's good enough for me.
 
Cowboy said:
My daughter did BJJ for a few years and then got out of it because of illness. I have always wanted to do it but my shoulders just won't allow it. Ed O'Neil is probably the best story of why it's a good skill to have. If it's good enough for Al Bundy it's good enough for me.
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When I was asking around about these as self defense skills, I asked a high school classmate who is a Gracie instructor and huge into the BJJ thing (https://graciemartialarts.com/Instructors/Harlan-Taylor); point of trivia, he also trains Dan Bongino from Fox.

Basically, if we wanted to compete, do one, or the other. If we want self defense, judo > BJJ because you're not down on the ground, yet, and fights start standing up. If you get to the ground, BJJ > judo. Most people who do one also do the other because it's a natural progression.

The more expensive option gives us access to all the classes. They do have judo only for half price. I will do whichever my son wants to do.
 
I do muay thai because I wanted striking/standing grappling so I can try to keep it from going to the ground, if it stays up I can run. I also think most people don't throw kicks/knees/elbows which might catch them off guard
 
I would personally find a smaller place they basically blend the two. My daughter's instructor always told them I'm going to teach you both styles so you can defend yourself. He is a 2 degree(?) black belt under Joe Hurst who trained under the Gracie's in Brazil.
 
Desron23 said:
I do muay thai because I wanted striking/standing grappling so I can try to keep it from going to the ground, if it stays up I can run. I also think most people don't throw kicks/knees/elbows which might catch them off guard
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Must Thai is definitely the most violent of all the martial arts. We have two very good studios here in Iredell. Both kru's have trained in Thailand.
 
Cowboy said:
Must Thai is definitely the most violent of all the martial arts. We have two very good studios here in Iredell. Both kru's have trained in Thailand.
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I've come back covered in bruises more times than I can count, and I haven't truly sparred or fought yet. It's a great workout, fun and I know I am much more prepared for an incident than I was beforehand. But Ideally I'm running, maybe a swift kick to someone's ribs first
 
Chuckman said:
Basically, if we wanted to compete, do one, or the other. If we want self defense, judo > BJJ because you're not down on the ground, yet, and fights start standing up. If you get to the ground, BJJ > judo. Most people who do one also do the other because it's a natural progression.
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My journey started with Judo and evolved into both disciplines. I trained strictly Judo for about a year, then started incorporating jiu jitsu into the regimen, and later added some Eskrima and MMA.
My regimen was Judo three days a week with jiu jitsu one day a week over several years.
Personally, I think this is the way to go. Everybody has at least some rudimentary idea of what to do standing up with their fists, but much of the groundwork is counter intuitive. It requires a lot of practice to break habits/bad instincts and develop the correct muscle memory.
However, interest level will dictate how much time and effort someone puts into training, so whichever one he's more interested in, concentrate on that and then add the other stuff in as time goes by.
One additional note...you guys will reach a plateau of sorts relatively soon in your training. For the first little while, everything is new. You learn something new every day or two and that keeps it fresh. A couple months in, that will kind of plateau into repetition of things already learned with a slow trickle of new stuff. It is at this point I have watched many, many promising students lose interest and quit. Beware that moment.

Good luck and enjoy the journey.

Mabuhay ang Eskrima!
 
Most real fights between two fairly evenly matched people almost always end up on the ground. I had a younger, smaller and lighter cousin who wrestled in high school. He was a little faster than I, and being trained as he was I couldn't keep him from taking me down. I used to box, and that lesson taught me to avoid the ground as much as possible.

25 years ago I was into Tai Kwon Do in a place that was heavy on sparring. With the equipment on, it was rare to see a clean punch or kick.

This is my opinion only - for sport, Judo. For competition like MMA, BJJ. For self-defense, Muay Tai or various Kung Fu disciplines with strikes to sensitive areas.
 
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I've been doing BJJ since 2017. The gym I go to offers Gi, no Gi, some Muay Thai classes, and we mix in some Judo with an occasional visit from the Judo school. In my experience, BJJ is the most practical and well-rounded of them all.

Judo seems to have a more narrow focus on take-downs but lacks a good game from that point. So you put them on the ground and run? Why not put them on the ground and control them with BJJ? There are takedowns in BJJ, but Judo is more specialized in that department. It's good to include Judo.

Muay Thai is great for developing striking skills and keeping a distance. However, you're a fish out of water WHEN the fight goes to the ground. It's good to include MT in your training.

No Gi allows me to use BJJ in more of a summertime street fight scenario. No Gi means I can't use the GI to control my opponent. I have to use techniques similar to wrestling and adapt. Most BJJ schools offer No Gi classes and it's a good skillset to have.

So train in all of them to have the broadest skillset, but for me BJJ is best overall. We start standing, we train for self-defense and sport and we train to deal with punches. So find a good school and take your time learning multiple martial arts. BJJ is a journey and a life-long endeavor if you're serious about it. Most won't last 6 months.
 
dmarbell said:
Most real fights between two fairly evenly matched people almost always end up on the ground. I had a younger, smaller and lighter cousin who wrestled in high school. He was a little faster than I, and being trained as he was I couldn't keep him from taking me down. I used to box, and that lesson taught me to avoid the ground as much as possible.

25 years ago I was into Tai Kwon Do in a place that was heavy on sparring. With the equipment on, it was rare to see a clean punch or kick.

This is my opinion only - for sport, Judo. For competition like MMA, BJJ. For self-defense, Muay Tai or various Kung Fu disciplines with strikes to sensitive areas.
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See post #3.

Since I have done precisely zilch, I have no personal bias; I am open to anything (and at this particular studio, it's BJJ and judo). When I was asking about each in context of self defense, here's how it was explained: most fights end up on the ground, but all of them start standing up. In many fights a single act is all that is needed to stop the fight: a blow, a take-down, etc. This is why people who 'do' BJJ or judo invariably do some of the other.

As someone who DID box I appreciate the value of striking; I am curious to see how I can ingratiate that into what I learn.

Here's interesting videos of a MMA fighter and multi-disciplinary fighter on the different forms as effective self defense/street fighting styles:



 
Cowboy said:
Must Thai is definitely the most violent of all the martial arts. We have two very good studios here in Iredell. Both kru's have trained in Thailand.
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You should check out real Krav Maga Training.


You will find it to be different and very effective most lethal against single or multiple attackers
 
muskrat said:
I've been doing BJJ since 2017. The gym I go to offers Gi, no Gi, some Muay Thai classes, and we mix in some Judo with an occasional visit from the Judo school. In my experience, BJJ is the most practical and well-rounded of them all.

Judo seems to have a more narrow focus on take-downs but lacks a good game from that point. So you put them on the ground and run? Why not put them on the ground and control them with BJJ? There are takedowns in BJJ, but Judo is more specialized in that department. It's good to include Judo.

Muay Thai is great for developing striking skills and keeping a distance. However, you're a fish out of water WHEN the fight goes to the ground. It's good to include MT in your training.

No Gi allows me to use BJJ in more of a summertime street fight scenario. No Gi means I can't use the GI to control my opponent. I have to use techniques similar to wrestling and adapt. Most BJJ schools offer No Gi classes and it's a good skillset to have.

So train in all of them to have the broadest skillset, but for me BJJ is best overall. We start standing, we train for self-defense and sport and we train to deal with punches. So find a good school and take your time learning multiple martial arts. BJJ is a journey and a life-long endeavor if you're serious about it. Most won't last 6 months.
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The vids I just posted do a good job of explaining that each style can be broken down into 2 sub-styles: competition, and self-defense, and that there's a big difference between the two. I don't know if the place we're going is more focused on one or the other or teaches to both.

Edited to add, also interesting to hear what they consider good and not good martial arts in terms of self defense. Also not big on krav maga.
 
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I've watched the videos above and I see references about BJJ practitioners sitting down for a fight. That's ridiculous, I've never seen anybody do this or recommend sitting down for a fight or competition. This is a BJJ sport mindset and almost all schools these days are clear on the difference between defense and sport. If I'm not on the ground controlling my opponent then it's back to standing and controlling distance. It's called a technical stand-up. The only exception for me is when there is a large gap in skill and we're just training, I let the lower belts practice their technique because I'm not worried about them hurting or submitting me.
 
muskrat said:
I've watched the videos above and I see references about BJJ practitioners sitting down for a fight. That's ridiculous, I've never seen anybody do this or recommend sitting down for a fight or competition. This is a BJJ sport mindset and almost all schools these days are clear on the difference between defense and sport. If I'm not on the ground controlling my opponent then it's back to standing and controlling distance. It's called a technical stand-up. The only exception for me is when there is a large gap in skill and we're just training, I let the lower belts practice their technique because I'm not worried about them hurting or submitting me.
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That's not the context I think they are using; or, how I interpreted it. I think the context is fighting in the domain in which you are most comfortable.

Per one of the vids above (second one, I believe), they talk about the differences between the competitive/sport 'style' and the SD 'style' and the lack of training for SD in most martial arts as they have trended toward competition.
 
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muskrat said:
Judo seems to have a more narrow focus on take-downs but lacks a good game from that point. So you put them on the ground and run? Why not put them on the ground and control them with BJJ? There are takedowns in BJJ, but Judo is more specialized in that department. It's good to include Judo.
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Judo used to be different. Used to be if you were thrown, and able to pull down the thrower, you then remain on the ground (not being allowed to go beyond knees) and engage from there with a 10 second control pin to win, or a sub. So you could win by throws, pins, and submissions. We were taught chokes and arm locks, etc.

It was because if Judo that I was able to do pretty well as a wrestler in my first year. I was used to grinding. Somewhere along the line sport judo changed and eliminated the ground part. Can't remember when or why, been 30 years, but it is different now and it seems to be just throws now. Meh.
 
NKD said:
Judo used to be different. Used to be if you were thrown, and able to pull down the thrower, you then remain on the ground (not being allowed to go beyond knees) and engage from there with a 10 second control pin to win, or a sub. So you could win by throws, pins, and submissions. We were taught chokes and arm locks, etc.

It was because if Judo that I was able to do pretty well as a wrestler in my first year. I was used to grinding. Somewhere along the line sport judo changed and eliminated the ground part. Can't remember when or why, been 30 years, but it is different now and it seems to be just throws now. Meh.
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My son and I had our first session tonight. We both enjoyed it. I did not appreciate the similarities to wrestling, which I also did in high school.

It was much more cardio intensive than I thought it would be, not a bad thing, a good workout.

The instructor did a good job of differentiating techniques that were good for competition versus techniques that were good for self-defense.

I am sensing the limitations, but I think with judo and striking, and with BJJ I will touch all the foundations of the fight continuum from standing to ground.

I'm not at all interested in competition, but my son might be. The instructor was trying to explain to me the belt progression and the colors, I told him I couldn't care less but my son would be interested.
 
As some of you know, I've been training since 1999. I've trained extensively in Muay Thai (Kru 3), and I'm a instructor in Bruce's Jeet Kune Do. I've also trained in the Filipino Martial arts of Balintawak/Kali/Modern Arnis/Pencak Silat. You want to know some deadly arts, the FMA is where it's at. It's very hard to find really good instructors in FMA. I was very fortunate that my instructor was a instructor under Grandmaster Bobby Taboada and Guro Dan Inasanto. I also got to Blue Belt in BJJ, then abandoned BJJ for Submission Wrestling, in the style of Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling. I damn near despised BJJ, as I had already trained for a decent amount of time in Muay Thai and hated people holding my Gi sleeves and lapel. I wanted to punch them in the face to break that crap, lol. I also competed in Submission Wrestling and Muay Thai tournaments for a bit. The Submission stuff was mostly with NAGA, and local stuff.

I've argued a bit with Jiu Jitsu practitioners about BJJ/Jiu Jitsu being great for self defense. In a street fight, the very last thing I want to do is go to the ground. That gravel, concrete, what have you sucks grappling on. I also don't know if ole boy has friends that will be kicking me in my head while I'm busy doing work on the ground. It's great to have that tool in your tool belt, if and when you do go to the ground, but it's not the be all end all self defense art. Try Jits inbetween two cars in a parking lot, yeah, it's not that great, lol. But, saying that, to be a well rounded fighter, you need some ground game. I chose Muay Thai to learn a good stand up game. A good Thai guy will have a very good clinch game, and know how to use knees and elbows to seriously hurt someone. I made it a point to learn sprawls, and how to be very hard to take down. So learn some hands and clinch work, and have a decent ground game and understanding how it really works, and most people wouldn't stand a chance. I taught a little class at @BatteryOaksBilly place last year. If enough people would like a more in depth class, or to just get their feet wet, I'd be more than happy to do another one.
OP, congrats on doing something with your son that will teach both some good stuff. Keep us posted on the progress.
 
I did wrestling and Judo at 11 years old to ~22.
It served me very well for self defense. Back in the 70’s through 90’s almost no one knew how to stop submission holds, chokes, or being taken to the ground and tied in a knot until exhausted or choked out. I never lost a fight, or took a direct hit.
With the popularity of MMA, a much higher percentage of the population has a clue.
I want to get my grandkids into BJJ/wrestling to give them discipline, confidence, and the ability to stop a bully.
 
Stick Man said:
As some of you know, I've been training since 1999. I've trained extensively in Muay Thai (Kru 3), and I'm a instructor in Bruce's Jeet Kune Do. I've also trained in the Filipino Martial arts of Balintawak/Kali/Modern Arnis/Pencak Silat. You want to know some deadly arts, the FMA is where it's at. It's very hard to find really good instructors in FMA. I was very fortunate that my instructor was a instructor under Grandmaster Bobby Taboada and Guro Dan Inasanto. I also got to Blue Belt in BJJ, then abandoned BJJ for Submission Wrestling, in the style of Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling. I damn near despised BJJ, as I had already trained for a decent amount of time in Muay Thai and hated people holding my Gi sleeves and lapel. I wanted to punch them in the face to break that crap, lol. I also competed in Submission Wrestling and Muay Thai tournaments for a bit. The Submission stuff was mostly with NAGA, and local stuff.

I've argued a bit with Jiu Jitsu practitioners about BJJ/Jiu Jitsu being great for self defense. In a street fight, the very last thing I want to do is go to the ground. That gravel, concrete, what have you sucks grappling on. I also don't know if ole boy has friends that will be kicking me in my head while I'm busy doing work on the ground. It's great to have that tool in your tool belt, if and when you do go to the ground, but it's not the be all end all self defense art. Try Jits inbetween two cars in a parking lot, yeah, it's not that great, lol. But, saying that, to be a well rounded fighter, you need some ground game. I chose Muay Thai to learn a good stand up game. A good Thai guy will have a very good clinch game, and know how to use knees and elbows to seriously hurt someone. I made it a point to learn sprawls, and how to be very hard to take down. So learn some hands and clinch work, and have a decent ground game and understanding how it really works, and most people wouldn't stand a chance. I taught a little class at @BatteryOaksBilly place last year. If enough people would like a more in depth class, or to just get their feet wet, I'd be more than happy to do another one.
OP, congrats on doing something with your son that will teach both some good stuff. Keep us posted on the progress.
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Thanks, and thanks for your perspective. I boxed some, years ago, and got back into it a year and a half ago or so (time off with the cancer treatment). I don't have the opportunity to spar, but stay intense on bag work, shadow boxing, and technique. I bring that up only to say, I agree regarding clinching, handwork, and striking.

Funny comment about the holding onto the gi; the class after mine was a BJJ with gi, the instructor told the class how much he disliked it because it was geared toward the sport and not self defense. He said he'd rather use that holding hand to be offensive.
 
Stick Man said:
As some of you know, I've been training since 1999. I've trained extensively in Muay Thai (Kru 3), and I'm a instructor in Bruce's Jeet Kune Do. I've also trained in the Filipino Martial arts of Balintawak/Kali/Modern Arnis/Pencak Silat. You want to know some deadly arts, the FMA is where it's at. It's very hard to find really good instructors in FMA. I was very fortunate that my instructor was a instructor under Grandmaster Bobby Taboada and Guro Dan Inasanto. I also got to Blue Belt in BJJ, then abandoned BJJ for Submission Wrestling, in the style of Erik Paulson's Combat Submission Wrestling. I damn near despised BJJ, as I had already trained for a decent amount of time in Muay Thai and hated people holding my Gi sleeves and lapel. I wanted to punch them in the face to break that crap, lol. I also competed in Submission Wrestling and Muay Thai tournaments for a bit. The Submission stuff was mostly with NAGA, and local stuff.

I've argued a bit with Jiu Jitsu practitioners about BJJ/Jiu Jitsu being great for self defense. In a street fight, the very last thing I want to do is go to the ground. That gravel, concrete, what have you sucks grappling on. I also don't know if ole boy has friends that will be kicking me in my head while I'm busy doing work on the ground. It's great to have that tool in your tool belt, if and when you do go to the ground, but it's not the be all end all self defense art. Try Jits inbetween two cars in a parking lot, yeah, it's not that great, lol. But, saying that, to be a well rounded fighter, you need some ground game. I chose Muay Thai to learn a good stand up game. A good Thai guy will have a very good clinch game, and know how to use knees and elbows to seriously hurt someone. I made it a point to learn sprawls, and how to be very hard to take down. So learn some hands and clinch work, and have a decent ground game and understanding how it really works, and most people wouldn't stand a chance. I taught a little class at @BatteryOaksBilly place last year. If enough people would like a more in depth class, or to just get their feet wet, I'd be more than happy to do another one.
OP, congrats on doing something with your son that will teach both some good stuff. Keep us posted on the progress.
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BJJ between two cars in a parking lot doesn't bother me at all, it makes no difference. Control is control, leverage is leverage and it doesn't matter where you're at or what your opponent is wearing. I've rolled with big strong guys, collegiate wrestlers, troopers, deputies, guys from every branch of the military, black belts in many other martial arts and they're all dumbfounded by the amount of control that BJJ has. This is exactly what got me hooked on BJJ when I took my first class.

If my opponent is close enough to strike, then I'm close enough to close the distance and get grips. Now they're playing my game whether they like it or not. I'll choke them from standing or the ground.

Saying you're above going to ground in a fight with a solid BJJ practitioner is like standing on the river bank telling the hungry alligator you're not getting wet. Joe Rogan says it well in this video starting around 8:40. Video

I respect other martial arts, especially Judo. But in my personal experience in rolling with Judo black belts the jig is up after the initial takedown when compared to BJJ. A judo takedown and some follow-up control will probably be enough for the average untrained adversary. But it's not enough for BJJ.
 
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muskrat said:
I've been doing BJJ since 2017. The gym I go to offers Gi, no Gi, some Muay Thai classes, and we mix in some Judo with an occasional visit from the Judo school. In my experience, BJJ is the most practical and well-rounded of them all.

Judo seems to have a more narrow focus on take-downs but lacks a good game from that point.
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I often forget the modern connotation with the word Judo. Like @NKD, my school was more traditional and ne waza was heavily weighted in the curriculum.
Like him, I have a very strong 'meh' sentiment towards the current one dimensional approach.

muskrat said:
So you put them on the ground and run? Why not put them on the ground and control them with BJJ?
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Yes, disengage and create distance at any oppurtunity.
The longer I am engaged, the bigger the risk of sustaining injury. The bigger the risk of another person joining his side. The bigger the risk of not getting my children to safety.
I have no need to prove anything, simple survival with minimal injury will suffice.
 
Mitch Rapp said:
Yes, disengage and create distance at any oppurtunity.
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You have a point. Though I still prefer the option of ripping someone's shoulder out of socket and pinning them to ground with so much pressure they can barely breathe.
 
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Mitch Rapp said:
Yes, disengage and create distance at any oppurtunity.
The longer I am engaged, the bigger the risk of sustaining injury. The bigger the risk of another person joining his side. The bigger the risk of not getting my children to safety.
I have no need to prove anything, simple survival with minimal injury will suffice.
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muskrat said:
You have a point. Though I still prefer the option of ripping someone's shoulder out of socket and pinning them to ground with so much pressure they can barely breathe.
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I look at the progression through a similar view of using a gun: minimal effort for maximal gain, disengage. A lawyer can justify a couple shots. It'll be harder for them to justify emptying a magazine, especially if the booger-eater is already on the ground and bleeding.

If between judo and striking I can put them on the ground and dissuade further engagement and get away, then that's my plan. If they want to take me to the ground, then that's where BJJ comes into play. But if you have to go to ground, fight survive, and then fight to win.

I think this is why so many gyms (or whatever they are called) that teach one, also teach the other. It's a natural progression that gives a bigger range of tools.

There is judo that teaches strikes and specific self defense katas, but the schools that teach those are few and far between; it seems that the vast majority are sport/competition focused, which is OK, if that's your goal.
 
NKD said:
Judo used to be different. Used to be if you were thrown, and able to pull down the thrower, you then remain on the ground (not being allowed to go beyond knees) and engage from there with a 10 second control pin to win, or a sub. So you could win by throws, pins, and submissions. We were taught chokes and arm locks, etc.

It was because if Judo that I was able to do pretty well as a wrestler in my first year. I was used to grinding. Somewhere along the line sport judo changed and eliminated the ground part. Can't remember when or why, been 30 years, but it is different now and it seems to be just throws now. Meh.
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This is kind of my point about Judo. It's limited. There is no 10-second pin to win in BJJ. There are far less rules. In BJJ you fight until your opponent submits, if they don't submit something is going to break or they're going to take a nap.

That being said, please don't think I'm a jerk at the gym. I've never intentionally and rarely accidentally injured a training partner. Joint locks are always applied with control. If you don't tap to a choke that's your own fault.
 
muskrat said:
This is kind of my point about Judo. It's limited. There is no 10-second pin to win in BJJ. There are far less rules. In BJJ you fight until your opponent submits, if they don't submit something is going to break or they're going to take a nap.

That being said, please don't think I'm a jerk at the gym. I've never intentionally and rarely accidentally injured a training partner. Joint locks are always applied with control. If you don't tap to a choke that's your own fault.
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BJJ is limited, too.

Not sure if you are talking to me in second sentence, but have never seen you at a gym or even in person so don't think you are a jerk? Kinda confused by this post to be honest.

Edit: just reread this. I get what you are saying. I agree BJJ is way more valuable as a real world self defense and fighting style.
 
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muskrat said:
This is kind of my point about Judo. It's limited. There is no 10-second pin to win in BJJ. There are far less rules. In BJJ you fight until your opponent submits, if they don't submit something is going to break or they're going to take a nap.

That being said, please don't think I'm a jerk at the gym. I've never intentionally and rarely accidentally injured a training partner. Joint locks are always applied with control. If you don't tap to a choke that's your own fault.
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But there's limits to all the styles in context of self defense, which is why MMA has become so popular. If I can close in and punch the hell out of you and make you think twice, I don't need BJJ (or anything else). If that doesn't work and you grab me, if I can choke you or slam you to the ground, that might make you think twice. If you get on the ground, then BJJ rules.

This was my trepidation going into this: rules. While I am certainly vested in wanting to learn something correctly and by the rules, I am not interested in 'points' or 'how many seconds', etc. I am interested in getting in someone's OODA loop.
 
I'd like to know the rules of BJJ, please.

As far as I know, here's the list.
1. No striking. However, if your gym trains for self-defense then distance management to defeat a striker is part of it. We use light gloves to train.
2. Certain techniques should not be used by lower belts to prevent serious injuries.
3. Don't intentionally injure your training partner.

Notice there's nothing about time limits, points and external factors that place limits on the match. Different BJJ sport organizations hold competitions and they have different rule sets for their own competitions. But, outside of those competitions generally follow the three rules above and go until your opponent taps out from pain, chokes, claustrophobia or exhaustion. You can use technique from anywhere, any other martial art (except striking, eye gouging, etc..).

Again, I think it's great to train in Judo and striking sports, too. BJJ is the most well-rounded.
 
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Chuckman said:
But there's limits to all the styles in context of self defense, which is why MMA has become so popular. If I can close in and punch the hell out of you and make you think twice, I don't need BJJ (or anything else). If that doesn't work and you grab me, if I can choke you or slam you to the ground, that might make you think twice. If you get on the ground, then BJJ rules.

This was my trepidation going into this: rules. While I am certainly vested in wanting to learn something correctly and by the rules, I am not interested in 'points' or 'how many seconds', etc. I am interested in getting in someone's OODA loop.
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What if your opponent understands distance management? A striker doesn't concern me too much unless they're a very skilled striker. I'll either be too far away to land a strike or too close to land effective punches. I'm not going to stand there and take it, I'm not going to play by their rules. Set up the moment, close the distance and take them down. I'm not saying a striker won't make contact on the way in, I know they will, I've trained this way, but it probably won't be effective. By the time I close the distance, they are already in the realm of BJJ.

If you haven't experienced BJJ, it's like fighting with a monkey. They have four arms. They will take away your balance, your ability to fight back while simultaneously setting up a choke and a joint lock. My first class in BJJ was eye-opening because of this. As a guy off the street, you think you'll fight back but the reality is that you're struggling to get any balance or footing, trying your hardest get the BJJ practitioner off of you but unfortunately you gas out after 30-60 seconds of maximum intensity. I see it every week with the new guys coming and going. Their ego usually can't handle it and they make up some excuse to quit.
 
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muskrat said:
BJJ between two cars in a parking lot doesn't bother me at all, it makes no difference. Control is control, leverage is leverage and it doesn't matter where you're at or what your opponent is wearing. I've rolled with big strong guys, collegiate wrestlers, troopers, deputies, guys from every branch of the military, black belts in many other martial arts and they're all dumbfounded by the amount of control that BJJ has. This is exactly what got me hooked on BJJ when I took my first class.

If my opponent is close enough to strike, then I'm close enough to close the distance and get grips. Now they're playing my game whether they like it or not. I'll choke them from standing or the ground.

Saying you're above going to ground in a fight with a solid BJJ practitioner is like standing on the river bank telling the hungry alligator you're not getting wet. Joe Rogan says it well in this video starting around 8:40. Video

I respect other martial arts, especially Judo. But in my personal experience in rolling with Judo black belts the jig is up after the initial takedown when compared to BJJ. A judo takedown and some follow-up control will probably be enough for the average untrained adversary. But it's not enough for BJJ.
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Yes, BJJ has great control, I would never deny that. As I said before, BJJ is not new to me, and I trained far past what I did belt wise, then chose CSW to further my knowledge of ground work, mixed with striking and control. If you don't know who Erik Paulson is, I highly recommend you check him out. I've trained with him since 2000 when he would come to our academy about twice a year. My instructor was a BJJ Black Belt, and a 7th degree Black in Shin Ryu Japanese Jiu Jitsu, so I had a good grasp on what was what on the grappling front. I'm not here to change anyone's mind on what your preferred art is. I've trained with enough Jiu Jitsu guys to know, unless they are really high level, or against someone that doesn't know much, a good stand up dude will wear his ass out before he gets ahold for control, as that's what most are focused on. Then, we have to take in consideration, this is a street fight with no rules. Blades, biting, etc. come into play. But yes, a Black Belt BJJ practitioner is a awful guy/gal to deal with. Also, the very reason I even mentioned the car in a parking lot deal, was we use to go outside and train in between my instructor and his wife's car. We would also go out in the field beside our academy and train in dirt and the gravel. It's an eye opener to just being in a controlled environment on a mat.

On to the 2nd part. Yes, if we're close enough, we can both get to each other. Who says for sure they will be able to close the distance and get grips and play the game, if you get knocked out first. Maybe it's that easy against again, someone who knows no different, but when you have stand up AND clinch and ground knowledge, well, it may not be that easy.

Next, I never said I'm above going to the ground, I just do not want to. Yes, a solid BJJ guy is a handful when he gets ahold of you, but I'm not a fish out of water when it comes to that. Again, choices. I'm not saying I'm the cat's meow, but I've fought and trained fighters that were very good Jits guys, and they struggled like hell to take me down, even when I started with them having me against the cage. And then/if they got me down, again, I'm ok with that, as I have that knowledge, and I'm not worried about homies kicking me in the head while I'm down.

And I totally agree, Judo is a great art, but it's limited (just like Jiu Jitsu only is to me), but a Judo only guy will not fare well with a Jiu Jitsu guy on the ground.

Just an opinion from someone who has been there, done that, for a long time.
 
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Stick Man said:
Yes, BJJ has great control, I would never deny that. As I said before, BJJ is not new to me, and I trained far past what I did belt wise, then chose CSW to further my knowledge of ground work, mixed with striking and control. If you don't know who Erik Paulson is, I highly recommend you check him out. I've trained with him since 2000 when he would come to our academy about twice a year. My instructor was a BJJ Black Belt, and a 7th degree Black in Shin Ryu Japanese Jiu Jitsu, so I had a good grasp on what was what on the grappling front. I'm not here to change anyone's mind on what your preferred art is. I've trained with enough Jiu Jitsu guys to know, unless they are really high level, or against someone that doesn't know much, a good stand up dude will wear his ass out before he gets ahold for control, as that's what most are focused on. Then, we have to take in consideration, this is a street fight with no rules. Blades, bighting, etc. come into play. But yes, a Black Belt BJJ practitioner is a awful guy/gal to deal with. Also, the very reason I even mentioned the car in a parking lot deal, was we use to go outside and train in between my instructor and his wife's car. We would also go out in the field beside our academy and train in dirt and the gravel. It's an eye opener to just being in a controlled environment on a mat.

On to the 2nd part. Yes, if were close enough, we can both get to each other. Who says for sure they will be able to close the distance and get grips and play the game, if you get knocked out first. Maybe it's that easy against again, someone who knows no different, but when you have stand up AND clinch and ground knowledge, well, it may not be that easy.

Next, I never said I'm above going to the ground, I just do not want to. Yes, a solid BJJ guy is a handful when he gets ahold of you, but I'm not a fish out of water when it comes to that. Again, choices. I'm not saying I'm the cat's meow, but I've fought and trained fighters that were very good Jits guys, and they struggled like hell to take me down, even when I started with them having me against the cage. And then/if they got me down, again, I'm ok with that, as I have that knowledge, and I'm not worried about homies kicking me in the head while I'm down.

And I totally agree, Judo is a great art, but it's limited (just like Jiu Jitsu only is to me), but a Judo only guy will not fare well with a Jiu Jitsu guy on the ground.

Just an opinion from someone who has been there, done that, for a long time.
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I'll look into Erik Paulson. I love to learn. Defense is best when layered. Mindset, awareness, fitness, firearms training and competitive combat sports are all part of it. If it falls into any of these categories then I'm all in.
 
muskrat said:
What if your opponent understands distance management? A striker doesn't concern me too much unless they're a very skilled striker. I'll either be too far away to land a strike or too close to land effective punches. I'm not going to stand there and take it, I'm not going to play by their rules. Set up the moment, close the distance and take them down. I'm not saying a striker won't make contact on the way in, I know they will, I've trained this way, but it probably won't be effective. By the time I close the distance, they are already in the realm of BJJ.

If you haven't experienced BJJ, it's like fighting with a monkey. They have four arms. They will take away your balance, your ability to fight back while simultaneously setting up a choke and a joint lock. My first class in BJJ was eye-opening because of this. As a guy off the street, you think you'll fight back but the reality is that you're struggling to get any balance or footing, trying your hardest get the BJJ practitioner off of you but unfortunately you gas out after 30-60 seconds of maximum intensity. I see it every week with the new guys coming and going. Their ego usually can't handle it and they make up some excuse to quit.
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If I have an opponent who understands distance management then he can get into my OODA loop. For sure we can't control what training or experience the other guy has, but we plan for 'average.' If you plan for 'worst case' then you'd take a variety of MA, and not just one or two. Most people aren't trained, and I am not sure that most people with MA training will be the one to start a fight. Most are hood rats, or drunks, or a-holes. Also, ideally, once you set up the moment, close the distance, and take them down, you can create distance and get away. But yes, if they choose to go to ground or counter, then you have little choice than go to the next tier and BJJ will be the next tool in the toolbox.
 
Here's some of Sensei Erik. Watch at the very end in the garage episode. That first throw was a Victor's throw. I've actually landed this in sparring leading in with some JKD trapping. Freakin awesome throw/roll to sub.

 
Stick Man said:
If you don't know who Erik Paulson is, I highly recommend you check him out. I've trained with him since 2000 when he would come to our academy about twice a year.
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He's your sensei and you trained with him since 2000? Doesn't he live in California?

And, just curious, but who is this guy: "My instructor was a BJJ Black Belt, and a 7th degree Black in Shin Ryu Japanese Jiu Jitsu, so I had a good grasp on what was what on the grappling front."
 
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Yes, Cali. He came to our academy twice a year for seminars. While he was here, I would do two private lessons with him. He always stayed at my instructors house while here, and I would go over and hang out, which always turned into a impromptu training session. We also did his curriculum at our academy, as my instructor was a full level CSW instructor under Erik. We also had access to his online portal when he got that going.

My instructor, Scott Shields. Sadly, he passed away in March of 2018. His bio below.

MASTER SCOTT SHIELDS​

Master Scott Shields has been running a school for over 20 years. He has trained in many different martial arts styles and holds many different Black Belt or Instructor Ranks including Instructor Ranks in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and the Filipino Martial Arts under Dan Inosanto; Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do under Larry Hartsell; Modern Arnis under Grandmaster Remy Presas; Kali, Escrima and Arnis under George Mandrapilias; Balintawak Arnis under Bobby Taboada (Completion of the Art Certificate); Combat Submission Wrestling under Erik Paulson; Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and Filipino Martial Arts under Rob Kelly and Black Belts in Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo Karate, Aikido and several other styles. He has competed in numerous tournaments including BJJ, Sport Jiu-Jitsu, Filipino Martial Arts, Muay Thai Kickboxing, Sambo and many others and holds a record of 50 -3 – 0. He has trained many students to championship level in Jiu-Jitsu, Submission Wrestling, Karate, Muay Thai and
MMA. He has also trained members of local and state law enforcement, the FBI, Navy Seals, the Secret Service and other military and security personel.
 
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Had first BJJ session. Not nearly as physically taxing with cardio, it was mostly technique. As hard as judo, but a different hard.

During the parring the instructor was sparring with a fellow black belt, who is the judo instructor. That was entertaining.
 
Stick Man said:
Yes, Cali. He came to our academy twice a year for seminars. While he was here, I would do two private lessons with him. He always stayed at my instructors house while here, and I would go over and hang out, which always turned into a impromptu training session. We also did his curriculum at our academy, as my instructor was a full level CSW instructor under Erik. We also had access to his online portal when he got that going.

My instructor, Scott Shields. Sadly, he passed away in March of 2018. His bio below.

MASTER SCOTT SHIELDS​

Master Scott Shields has been running a school for over 20 years. He has trained in many different martial arts styles and holds many different Black Belt or Instructor Ranks including Instructor Ranks in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and the Filipino Martial Arts under Dan Inosanto; Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do under Larry Hartsell; Modern Arnis under Grandmaster Remy Presas; Kali, Escrima and Arnis under George Mandrapilias; Balintawak Arnis under Bobby Taboada (Completion of the Art Certificate); Combat Submission Wrestling under Erik Paulson; Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do and Filipino Martial Arts under Rob Kelly and Black Belts in Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo Karate, Aikido and several other styles. He has competed in numerous tournaments including BJJ, Sport Jiu-Jitsu, Filipino Martial Arts, Muay Thai Kickboxing, Sambo and many others and holds a record of 50 -3 – 0. He has trained many students to championship level in Jiu-Jitsu, Submission Wrestling, Karate, Muay Thai and
MMA. He has also trained members of local and state law enforcement, the FBI, Navy Seals, the Secret Service and other military and security personel.
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Interesting. Who did Scott receive his BJJ black belt from? Haven't be able to find any info on his 53 fights. Any videos?
 
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