CEB Raptors

[StdVel]

I have been refinishing a Remington Model Seven (308 Win) and tinkering with it to make it an ideal small deer rifle. I’ve used it off and on for many years and want to make the most of it’s short barrel.

150 grain Partitions can get reasonable velocity out of a short barrel, but I’ve become interested in the CEB Raptors (130 grain) as a way to gain more velocity without giving up any penetration or terminal performance.

From what I’ve read about the Raptors it looks like they are capable of a high level of performance disproportionate to their weight (even relative to other mono-metal designs). It looks like these bullets could even boost the performance of older cartridges that are often hampered by COL and twist rate since much lighter weight projectiles are being used.

This being said, I’m wary of the effusively positive claims. There is no free lunch, but the design looks sound.

Has anyone used these bullets enough to know if my impression of their capabilities is correct or not? @Michael458 has posted some very detailed information about the design and engineering that went into the CEB products. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this?

Thank you all for any assistance you can lend.

 

[Michael458]

@Michael458 has posted some very detailed information about the design and engineering that went into the CEB products. Maybe he can chime in if he sees this?

For 308 Winchester and your objective is deer/pigs/black bear, you do not need anything more than 100 gr FB Raptors............... These take care of all .308 caliber requirements unless you move up to something like elk, then the 130-150 comes to play........ but if I were doing that, it would be 338-358 caliber anyway.......... This 100 Raptor has literally taken 100s of deer +++ over the last few years with my friends that hunt local SC/NC............

 

[Michael458]

Someone sent this to me a few years ago and it was 308 Winchester and 100 Raptors.......... typical deer behavior once taking the bullet........



Not a 100 Raptor, but typical Raptor results.......... some years ago I had asked Dan for a light 250 gr .458 Raptor for my .458s...... very shortly, nearly the same time, Dan had developed the 250 Socom Raptor which I actually tested in 2011 along with the 250 Lever Raptor in 458 B&M in South Africa and Zimbabwe. I also had loaded some for our friends Beau and Mike Long that both had 458 B&M rifles. They used the 250 Raptors in Africa as well, and captured this zebra on video. Now Zebra are extremely tough animals, they can take tremendous punishment from lesser calibers, but this 250 Raptor in 458 B&M at 2950 fps tells another story........................

 

[rodell]

The raptors plain work. They can be finicky to get dialed in - if your ranges are under 100 yards it doesn't matter at all on deer sized game. I have had a lot better results with the flat-base than anything else and I never could get acceptable (to me) results for the maximus in larger calibers, in spite of trying very hard.

 

[Jimbob78]

They should work especially at that cost. I just got 200 of the 400gn lazers to try. One of my ELR friends shoots the raptors exclusively for deer hunting and loves them. Make sure you get enough to figure out the seating depth.

 

[StdVel]

For 308 Winchester and your objective is deer/pigs/black bear, you do not need anything more than 100 gr FB Raptors............... These take care of all .308 caliber requirements unless you move up to something like elk, then the 130-150 comes to play........ but if I were doing that, it would be 338-358 caliber anyway.......... This 100 Raptor has literally taken 100s of deer +++ over the last few years with my friends that hunt local SC/NC............

Thank you for the thorough reply.

I know that monometal bullets perform well with lighter bullets, and the reports of the 100 grain are good, I’m just having difficulty wrapping my head around such an incredibly light weight bullet performing so well. Are they going to penetrate on the shoulder of a 200 lb deer? Is there a reason to choose the 100 grain over the 130 grain?

The reason I ask is that my preferred bullet in .308 Win is a 165 grain Partition. I’ve found it to be adequate at all reasonable ranges and will penetrate regardless of angle. The 165 is adequate from a short barrel but the 150 gets better performance with the shorter barrels.

Will the 100 grain Raptor do the same or better than the 150 grain Partition? Are there any caveats to ideal performance (velocity, size of animal, etc.)?

Thank you for the input. These look to be really good bullets, I just don’t know much about them.

 

[StdVel]

The raptors plain work. They can be finicky to get dialed in - if your ranges are under 100 yards it doesn't matter at all on deer sized game. I have had a lot better results with the flat-base than anything else and I never could get acceptable (to me) results for the maximus in larger calibers, in spite of trying very hard.

I like flat base bullets but I really want to try the boat tails so that I can turn them around. I have zero need for a solid, but I’m curious how far they would penetrate.

Have you, by chance, used both the 100 and 130 grain 30 cal?

 

[Michael458]

’m just having difficulty wrapping my head around such an incredibly light weight bullet performing so well.

Think outside the box of conventional wisdom. Raptors and copper CNC Generation I bullets do not transmit trauma or penetrate as conventional expanding bullets.

Are they going to penetrate on the shoulder of a 200 lb deer?

Yes, and exit far side...........

Will the 100 grain Raptor do the same or better than the 150 grain Partition?

Will out perform 100% of the time with Trauma inflicted and penetration.............

The ESP (Enhanced System Projectile) is not a boat tail, it is a #13 Solid on one end, and a Raptor on the other. I do not like the 100 ESP Raptor Solid, the nose projection is not enough to make it a decent Solid, the Raptor portion is fine, and performs like all other Raptors. The 130 ESP Raptor/Solid is a very good solid, it has a long enough Nose Projection to perform very well for a .308 caliber solid. And the Raptor end is a Raptor. The problem you will have with the 130 ESP Raptor is the length when a Tip is added, it will not be stable in 1:12 twist rates with the Tip added. ESP bullets do not follow standard twist rate rules.

I asked for a Flat Base Raptor at 100 gr to work in everything from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester and it does that very well, is very easy to load and not an issue. For anything up to and including Black bear a 100 FB Raptor is all that is needed, and will penetrate completely in all broadside cases. This is not a conventional expanding bullet.

Raptors once inside any aqueous material 1.5 to 2 inches shear the blades all at the same time. These are Blades, they are not petals, they slice and dice tissue to gain penetration, they do not push and bull their way through. Once you have shear these blades travel close to the center remaining bullet and as tissue expands they slice it to pieces for 4-6 inches of penetration, and at that point they have radiated away from center and become secondary projectiles at that point. The remaining bullet has turned into a full caliber broken beer bottle solid and continues to penetrate straight. In small animals like deer and such, full broadside penetration and exit will occur. What you will see from the outside is a caliber hole in, and a caliber hole out. Everything in between is destroyed. The larger the caliber, the larger the blades and the deeper they will penetrate and radiate away from center. Larger caliber, from .366 caliber up, those blades will actually exit a broadside deer. Of course small calibers like 308 the blades will remain inside the chest cavity. This is Raptor behavior from .224 caliber all the way to .620 caliber, and they do the same thing every single time and time again.............

I don't hunt deer. But have loaded the 100 ESP and the 100 FB Raptors for friends and locals for years. Well over 100-150 deer have been taken with the bullets, and the furthest any deer went was 5 steps from taking the shot, this reported to me. I have yet to have anyone tell me they would hunt deer with anything else. We have also used the bullet extensively in 300 BLK and 7.62X40 which is fantastic for kids. I had a friend in Oklahoma load these for his grandson last year in 300 BLK.......... The young hunter was successful in the extreme.........

My Son Matthew used his Winchester M70 20 inch gun on his deer this year. Of course the 100 FB Raptor...................

For anything that I would ever do in any .308 caliber rifle, 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 30-30, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester the 100 FB Raptor takes care of everything. If I had thoughts of larger animals, then I move to another larger caliber........ fact is, most of my hunting was done with 458 caliber +........... I load most of my 308 caliber guns for the Zombie Apocalypse ..................... You never know.........

 

[Amps 13]

Whatever @Michael458 says about this topic take as gospel. There is no one around here that knows more than him about this subject.
TRUST HIM!

 

[Michael458]

 

[rodell]

I like flat base bullets but I really want to try the boat tails so that I can turn them around. I have zero need for a solid, but I’m curious how far they would penetrate.

Have you, by chance, used both the 100 and 130 grain 30 cal?

I've not used the 100 FB since the bulk of my .30 cal hunting is 300 Weatherby. Most of my shots were >200 yards and a little heavier bullet was preferred for the ever present wind in Montana. The velocity of the 100 in that caliber is extreme. The 130's were more reasonable and very deadly. Now that I've moved (back) East I may have to tone it down.

For my wife's .30-06 I never switched to them as she was hell on Zebra, Stag and others with an Accubond with her own list of one-shot kills. I probably have a lifetime supply of loads for her.

For my 9.3x62 and 375 H&H I played with all the CEB bullets facing every way and was able to get satisfactory performance, but have never had the chance to use them on game.

 

[StdVel]

Think outside the box of conventional wisdom. Raptors and copper CNC Generation I bullets do not transmit trauma or penetrate as conventional expanding bullets.


Yes, and exit far side...........


Will out perform 100% of the time with Trauma inflicted and penetration.............

The ESP (Enhanced System Projectile) is not a boat tail, it is a #13 Solid on one end, and a Raptor on the other. I do not like the 100 ESP Raptor Solid, the nose projection is not enough to make it a decent Solid, the Raptor portion is fine, and performs like all other Raptors. The 130 ESP Raptor/Solid is a very good solid, it has a long enough Nose Projection to perform very well for a .308 caliber solid. And the Raptor end is a Raptor. The problem you will have with the 130 ESP Raptor is the length when a Tip is added, it will not be stable in 1:12 twist rates with the Tip added. ESP bullets do not follow standard twist rate rules.

I asked for a Flat Base Raptor at 100 gr to work in everything from 300 BLK to 300 Winchester and it does that very well, is very easy to load and not an issue. For anything up to and including Black bear a 100 FB Raptor is all that is needed, and will penetrate completely in all broadside cases. This is not a conventional expanding bullet.

Raptors once inside any aqueous material 1.5 to 2 inches shear the blades all at the same time. These are Blades, they are not petals, they slice and dice tissue to gain penetration, they do not push and bull their way through. Once you have shear these blades travel close to the center remaining bullet and as tissue expands they slice it to pieces for 4-6 inches of penetration, and at that point they have radiated away from center and become secondary projectiles at that point. The remaining bullet has turned into a full caliber broken beer bottle solid and continues to penetrate straight. In small animals like deer and such, full broadside penetration and exit will occur. What you will see from the outside is a caliber hole in, and a caliber hole out. Everything in between is destroyed. The larger the caliber, the larger the blades and the deeper they will penetrate and radiate away from center. Larger caliber, from .366 caliber up, those blades will actually exit a broadside deer. Of course small calibers like 308 the blades will remain inside the chest cavity. This is Raptor behavior from .224 caliber all the way to .620 caliber, and they do the same thing every single time and time again.............

I don't hunt deer. But have loaded the 100 ESP and the 100 FB Raptors for friends and locals for years. Well over 100-150 deer have been taken with the bullets, and the furthest any deer went was 5 steps from taking the shot, this reported to me. I have yet to have anyone tell me they would hunt deer with anything else. We have also used the bullet extensively in 300 BLK and 7.62X40 which is fantastic for kids. I had a friend in Oklahoma load these for his grandson last year in 300 BLK.......... The young hunter was successful in the extreme.........

My Son Matthew used his Winchester M70 20 inch gun on his deer this year. Of course the 100 FB Raptor...................

For anything that I would ever do in any .308 caliber rifle, 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 30-30, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester the 100 FB Raptor takes care of everything. If I had thoughts of larger animals, then I move to another larger caliber........ fact is, most of my hunting was done with 458 caliber +........... I load most of my 308 caliber guns for the Zombie Apocalypse ..................... You never know.........

Thank you again for the detailed response.

Looks like the 100 grain is the way to go. I’ll ask CEB about specific loads, but what would a reasonable velocity be from an 18” barrel? Have you found any specific powder to perform better with the lightweight but still normal length projectiles?

This has been a very helpful conversation. Thank you for being so forthcoming with your extensive testing.

 

[StdVel]

I've not used the 100 FB since the bulk of my .30 cal hunting is 300 Weatherby. Most of my shots were >200 yards and a little heavier bullet was preferred for the ever present wind in Montana. The velocity of the 100 in that caliber is extreme. The 130's were more reasonable and very deadly. Now that I've moved (back) East I may have to tone it down.

For my wife's .30-06 I never switched to them as she was hell on Zebra, Stag and others with an Accubond with her own list of one-shot kills. I probably have a lifetime supply of loads for her.

For my 9.3x62 and 375 H&H I played with all the CEB bullets facing every way and was able to get satisfactory performance, but have never had the chance to use them on game.

Out of a 300 Weatherby you might be able to reach Ludicrous speed with a 100 grain bullet.



I make every effort to take shots at 100 yards or less, but would like the flexibility to take shots at 300 yards or less. I’ve not calculated the wind drift. Are the 100’s easily pushed around by the wind? It would be logical that they would be, but everything else about these appears to defy common knowledge about ballistics. Maybe the tip increases BC in a meaningful way?

 

[Michael458]

Looks like the 100 grain is the way to go. I’ll ask CEB about specific loads, but what would a reasonable velocity be from an 18” barrel? Have you found any specific powder to perform better with the lightweight but still normal length projectiles?

Well, there is some issue with my loads, I load for several different platforms in 308. One of those platforms is HK/PTR with fluted chambers. One of the only powders I have found that does not rip the cases is RL 7. And RL 7 is a hateful powder to use, because of its inconsistency from one batch, one can to the other, regardless of Lot#. I mix all my RL 7 together in batches, then test that blend of RL 7 and use it until the next is needed. Some years ago I ignored doing this, and loaded the same load of RL 7 I had been working with earlier...... this resulted in a 10000 PSI Jump in pressures and bullets had to be pulled and start over, I ended up having to reduce the load by 1.5 gr to equal prior loads pressure and velocity....... waste of time........... so everything gets mixed up in a 5 gallon bucket, and gets a new Label for that batch......

I use the RL 7 to work in several platforms and different rifles instead of having to have several different loads for different rifles, which is way too confusing...... There are many other powders out there if you have one or two guns that you are loading for that are better to be honest, lower pressures........ but those loads react ugly in some of my rifles.

My current Blends I use 40.5/RL 7 in most all brass for 3318 fps in 26 inch test rifle for 52100 PSI........ this runs around 3100-3150 fps in 18 inch guns. But, My RL 7 will not be Your RL 7.......... and I use RL 7 because of the different platforms I have.

Other powders that would be excellent, and probably superior to RL 7 is TAC, IMR 8208 and AA 2520, all giving higher velocity and less pressures.........

 

[StdVel]

Well, there is some issue with my loads, I load for several different platforms in 308. One of those platforms is HK/PTR with fluted chambers. One of the only powders I have found that does not rip the cases is RL 7. And RL 7 is a hateful powder to use, because of its inconsistency from one batch, one can to the other, regardless of Lot#. I mix all my RL 7 together in batches, then test that blend of RL 7 and use it until the next is needed. Some years ago I ignored doing this, and loaded the same load of RL 7 I had been working with earlier...... this resulted in a 10000 PSI Jump in pressures and bullets had to be pulled and start over, I ended up having to reduce the load by 1.5 gr to equal prior loads pressure and velocity....... waste of time........... so everything gets mixed up in a 5 gallon bucket, and gets a new Label for that batch......

I use the RL 7 to work in several platforms and different rifles instead of having to have several different loads for different rifles, which is way too confusing...... There are many other powders out there if you have one or two guns that you are loading for that are better to be honest, lower pressures........ but those loads react ugly in some of my rifles.

My current Blends I use 40.5/RL 7 in most all brass for 3318 fps in 26 inch test rifle for 52100 PSI........ this runs around 3100-3150 fps in 18 inch guns. But, My RL 7 will not be Your RL 7.......... and I use RL 7 because of the different platforms I have.

Other powders that would be excellent, and probably superior to RL 7 is TAC, IMR 8208 and AA 2520, all giving higher velocity and less pressures.........

Right now I have TAC, A2495, and Varget. No more than I would be shooting this particular bullet I could deal with lot-to-lot variation. Keeping pressure low is preferable, but not a dealbreaker. Low flash and temperature stability are the goals after good short barrel performance. Not having to deal with a gas system does make load development much easier.

 

[Michael458]

TAC is a powder I use a lot in some of the bigger cartridges, 458 B&M and 458 B&M EX ....... I have the same issue with 223 as with 308 and multiple platforms to work with, and use RL 10X for multi-purpose 223 loads..... but have some superior loads with TAC........

I tried TAC with one load in the 308 in 2018 I did not work with it further, very low pressures and great velocity, remember my test gun is a 26 inch Remington. I tested 50/TAC and hit 3355 fps at 47500 PSI. I never checked for accuracy or any other factors, was just interested in velocity/pressures.

Other loads; with 100 FB Raptors

50/AA 2520 3263 fps at 47300 PSI

47/IMR 8208 3267 fps at 49800 PSI

With TAC and IMR 8208 I never experienced any variance in Lot to Lot or Blend to blend........

I like my 308 Winchester to be no more than 52000-53000 PSI......... yes, some rifles will take more, but some do not like 53000 or more........ I have one that really does not like to go above 53000 PSI at all, so I make that the limit for all............

 

[rodell]

I make every effort to take shots at 100 yards or less, but would like the flexibility to take shots at 300 yards or less. I’ve not calculated the wind drift. Are the 100’s easily pushed around by the wind? It would be logical that they would be, but everything else about these appears to defy common knowledge about ballistics. Maybe the tip increases BC in a meaningful way?

The 100’s aren’t bad, especially at hyper velocity. After all, a laser isn’t affected at all!

Sectional density and muzzle velocity (time of flight) are the inputs. I haven’t calculated the difference between the two weights but I suspect the difference isn’t meaningful unless the target is waaaay out there.

 

[StdVel]

TAC is a powder I use a lot in some of the bigger cartridges, 458 B&M and 458 B&M EX ....... I have the same issue with 223 as with 308 and multiple platforms to work with, and use RL 10X for multi-purpose 223 loads..... but have some superior loads with TAC........

I tried TAC with one load in the 308 in 2018 I did not work with it further, very low pressures and great velocity, remember my test gun is a 26 inch Remington. I tested 50/TAC and hit 3355 fps at 47500 PSI. I never checked for accuracy or any other factors, was just interested in velocity/pressures.

Other loads; with 100 FB Raptors

50/AA 2520 3263 fps at 47300 PSI

47/IMR 8208 3267 fps at 49800 PSI

With TAC and IMR 8208 I never experienced any variance in Lot to Lot or Blend to blend........

I like my 308 Winchester to be no more than 52000-53000 PSI......... yes, some rifles will take more, but some do not like 53000 or more........ I have one that really does not like to go above 53000 PSI at all, so I make that the limit for all............

I agree. Chasing unrealistic velocity in cartridges and/or platforms that aren’t designed for it is asking for trouble. No need to try making a 308 into a 30-06. This is where the ultra lightweight bullets designed to perform within the limitations of my particular setup become interesting.

I’ll be limited to measuring case webs to determine pressure, but it looks like these Raptors will perform well without trying too max anything out.

 

[StdVel]

The 100’s aren’t bad, especially at hyper velocity. After all, a laser isn’t affected at all!

Sectional density and muzzle velocity (time of flight) are the inputs. I haven’t calculated the difference between the two weights but I suspect the difference isn’t meaningful unless the target is waaaay out there.

Agreed. People get very wrapped up in ballistic coefficients when there is very little difference at ranges I consider ethical for me. Wind drift, however, can definitely make a difference at 300 yards, but I’ve never been in a situation where I had to account for more than 10 mph. Even that has been exceedingly rare for me.

In this day and age of reasonably accurate cheap rangefinders there’s really no excuse for guessing distances. I’ve been surprised at how genuinely bad I am at judging distance. It’s a fun game while sitting in the stand. I tape my holdovers and wind drift to the rear flip up cap on my scope and laser anything that is further than 100 yards.

 

[Jimbob78]

Agreed. People get very wrapped up in ballistic coefficients when there is very little difference at ranges I consider ethical for me. Wind drift, however, can definitely make a difference at 300 yards, but I’ve never been in a situation where I had to account for more than 10 mph. Even that has been exceedingly rare for me.

In this day and age of reasonably accurate cheap rangefinders there’s really no excuse for guessing distances. I’ve been surprised at how genuinely bad I am at judging distance. It’s a fun game while sitting in the stand. I tape my holdovers and wind drift to the rear flip up cap on my scope and laser anything that is further than 100 yards.

BC has no bearing on wind drift? To me putting bullet exactly where I want it on target is the most important. If it’s not on target the expansion capabilities are null.

 

[StdVel]

BC has no bearing on wind drift? To me putting bullet exactly where I want it on target is the most important. If it’s not on target the expansion capabilities are null.

It does, but not in a meaningful way when considering the difference between POI of the latest, greatest, wind-slipping needle of a bullet and a traditional flat base spitzer at 300 yards and less. The 1-2” difference is not relevant for my application. Whatever my wind hold notes on my dope card dictates how far I hold in the unusual situation of needing to do so.

I practice for minute of water bottle. Our range allows for a pretty good crosswind when the wind is up. I dangle a water bottle at the 100, 200, and 300 yard marks and am able to hit them with consistency. If Bambi exceeds my comfort zone for either range or conditions, I pass on the shot and become a nature viewer.