Charlotte Officers Shot

Chuckman said:
Edited to add @JBoyette , staying static was a head-scratcher. They forgot the "move" part of "shoot, move, communicate."
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Can't move AND contain. Let's be honest, LE does containment. Which by definition makes them static. Until they cut SWAT loose to enter the house. It works for your typical baricaded suspect. Not so much if that barricaded suspect is intent on takes LE with him. An by then LE kind of has no where to go.
 
Chuckman said:
Of course the DA will look at mitigating circumstances, what they knew or didn't know, etc. Same concept if you are the driver of a getaway car of a bank robbery where the other guy shot and killed a teller. If you knew, you are charged as an accessory and with the same crime. If you had no idea, then likely not. But don't get mad at me because you don't like it. I didn't write the law, and they didn't ask me my opinion.
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Not a lawyer, but do have a relative that robbed a bank (and got caught because the license plate fell off his car in the parking lot).

I believe that if someone is an active participant in a crime, for example being a get away driver, then they can be charge for all related crimes, so even the driver gets a murder charge if someone kills a teller. The house situation is different because the sandwich maker isn’t involved in any underlying criminal activity, they just happen to be in geographic proximity to a crime.

There have been cases where one friend gives another a lift to say a liquor store, the friend goes in and robs the place. The driver knew nothing about the planned robbery and isn’t convicted.
 
chiefjason said:
Can't move AND contain. Let's be honest, LE does containment. Which by definition makes them static. Until they cut SWAT loose to enter the house. It works for your typical baricaded suspect. Not so much if that barricaded suspect is intent on takes LE with him. An by then LE kind of has no where to go.
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Correct,

That's the question of the day, sop's etc
 
GymB said:
Not a lawyer, but do have a relative that robbed a bank (and got caught because the license plate fell off his car in the parking lot).

I believe that if someone is an active participant in a crime, for example being a get away driver, then they can be charge for all related crimes, so even the driver gets a murder charge if someone kills a teller. The house situation is different because the sandwich maker isn’t involved in any underlying criminal activity, they just happen to be in geographic proximity to a crime.

There have been cases where one friend gives another a lift to say a liquor store, the friend goes in and robs the place. The driver knew nothing about the planned robbery and isn’t convicted.
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Sure, which is why I prefaced with mitigating factors, what they knew/didn't know.
 
chiefjason said:
Can't move AND contain. Let's be honest, LE does containment. Which by definition makes them static. Until they cut SWAT loose to enter the house. It works for your typical baricaded suspect. Not so much if that barricaded suspect is intent on takes LE with him. An by then LE kind of has no where to go.
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Yeah, fair point.
 
Alden was a probation officer that I knew from a few interactions. He was a good man.

William Alden Elliott
June 2, 1977 - April 29, 2024
My daddy is a hero
He died getting the bad guys, that’s what he was good at.
He is a Marine.
He is a Police Officer.
He is kind and patient.
He keeps my mom and I safe.
He is my daddy; the best daddy.
We love playing video games together. He really likes Mario, Zelda, and Metroid Return of Samus.
We collect Pokemon cards. I have a Charizard that he helped me get graded.
He and I have watched every Star Wars movie and series.
My daddy loves playing and watching baseball. His favorite team is the Dodgers.
He is an expert marksman, perfect score every time.
For my 12th birthday he bought me a dirt bike. He bought himself one too, so that we could ride together.
I will learn how to ride it and we will ride together one day, Daddy.
He was the best man I will ever know.
And I hope to be just like him.
-Theo
A memorial service with military honors to celebrate Alden’s life will be held on Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 6:00 p.m. at the Tarlton Complex on the campus of Catawba Valley Community College, 2540 Hwy 70 SE, Hickory, NC 28602. Rev. Josh Sherfey will officiate.
Alden deeply loved his family and took great pride in watching Theo’s path to becoming a young man. His family requests that in lieu of flowers, donations to an account set up for Theo’s benefit be made. Checks may be payable to Edward Jones for the benefit of Theo James Elliott.
Condolences may be sent to the Elliott family at www.bennettfuneralservice.com
The Elliott family is in the care of Bennett Funeral Service of Newton, 828-465-2111
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
With the proliferation of the AR-15 why don't LEO's wear armor capable of stopping it?
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Because it is heavy, bulky, and expensive. Also, agencies operate (at least in theory) on a cost-benefit analysis. Cops don't get killed by rifles that often, so the rifle plates won't make a difference in most cases.

When I started working the street in the 90's I had a pistol rated level 2 vest, a Beretta 92, and a Remington 870 issued to me (I also had a personally owned backup gun). No patrol rifles, no lights on pistols, halogen Maglites that were "super bright" at about 60 lumens, no weapon mounted lights on the shotguns. I worked in a county where everyone had a deer rifle. There were not as many AR type rifles around (just because not every company on the planet made one), but everyone's deer gun could shoot through a level 2 vest like it wasn't there. Rifle plates were available to the military, but we had basically no option to obtain them even if we had known about them and wanted them.

I say that because guys that started when I did are now in charge at most of these agencies (where did I go wrong?). They didn't have the stuff, so I expect it doesn't even occur to a lot of them. Especially not to the ones that are not "gun guys."
 
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AR10ShooterinNC said:
With the proliferation of the AR-15 why don't LEO's wear armor capable of stopping it?
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Bulky and hot … odds everyday patrol LEO’s run it a shooter like this is low. Also the plate coverage is basically center mass unless they really kit out. Now putting a little spin on your question if this team was going to serve a warrant on a felon known to have been (and like still is) in possession of a firearm why not treat it as a High Risk Service/Raid action and kit up?
 
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Landric said:
Also, agencies operate (at least in theory) on a cost-benefit analysis.
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When I was an MP, we couldn't get body armor even though it was in the supply system.

The battalion commander said it was cheaper to replace one MP in the unlikely event we were shot than to get vests for everyone
 
Cowboy said:
Alden was a probation officer that I knew from a few interactions. He was a good man.

William Alden Elliott
June 2, 1977 - April 29, 2024
My daddy is a hero
He died getting the bad guys, that’s what he was good at.
He is a Marine.
He is a Police Officer.
He is kind and patient.
He keeps my mom and I safe.
He is my daddy; the best daddy.
We love playing video games together. He really likes Mario, Zelda, and Metroid Return of Samus.
We collect Pokemon cards. I have a Charizard that he helped me get graded.
He and I have watched every Star Wars movie and series.
My daddy loves playing and watching baseball. His favorite team is the Dodgers.
He is an expert marksman, perfect score every time.
For my 12th birthday he bought me a dirt bike. He bought himself one too, so that we could ride together.
I will learn how to ride it and we will ride together one day, Daddy.
He was the best man I will ever know.
And I hope to be just like him.
-Theo
A memorial service with military honors to celebrate Alden’s life will be held on Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 6:00 p.m. at the Tarlton Complex on the campus of Catawba Valley Community College, 2540 Hwy 70 SE, Hickory, NC 28602. Rev. Josh Sherfey will officiate.
Alden deeply loved his family and took great pride in watching Theo’s path to becoming a young man. His family requests that in lieu of flowers, donations to an account set up for Theo’s benefit be made. Checks may be payable to Edward Jones for the benefit of Theo James Elliott.
Condolences may be sent to the Elliott family at www.bennettfuneralservice.com
The Elliott family is in the care of Bennett Funeral Service of Newton, 828-465-2111
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My sister-in-law's husband grew up with him, their families are close. His family is devastated, but he said Alden's family are strong Christians, with a good foundation, so while is pain is tragic and awful, they will endure.
 
Chuckman said:
My sister-in-law's husband grew up with him, their families are close. His family is devastated, but he said Alden's family are strong Christians, with a good foundation, so while is pain is tragic and awful, they will endure.
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He started at probation a few years after I left. Iirc he had been a police officer in Kansas City very nice guy pretty quiet in my interactions with him.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
With the proliferation of the AR-15 why don't LEO's wear armor capable of stopping it?
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My son is on the SWAT team. He and his team wear rifle plates on every call out they are on. He also kept his heavy vest within arms reach as a detective before he was selected for SWAT.
 
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SPST said:
My son is on the SWAT team. He and his team wear rifle plates on every call out they are on. He also kept his heavy vest within arms reach as a detective before he was selected for SWAT.
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I'm sure they do. However, that is a SWAT call out, serving a warrant for Firearm by Felon is a Tuesday.

Maybe that attitude in law enforcement should change, but as we sit today, that is the attitude.
 
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Cowboy said:
Alden was a probation officer that I knew from a few interactions. He was a good man.

William Alden Elliott
June 2, 1977 - April 29, 2024
My daddy is a hero
He died getting the bad guys, that’s what he was good at.
He is a Marine.
He is a Police Officer.
He is kind and patient.
He keeps my mom and I safe.
He is my daddy; the best daddy.
We love playing video games together. He really likes Mario, Zelda, and Metroid Return of Samus.
We collect Pokemon cards. I have a Charizard that he helped me get graded.
He and I have watched every Star Wars movie and series.
My daddy loves playing and watching baseball. His favorite team is the Dodgers.
He is an expert marksman, perfect score every time.
For my 12th birthday he bought me a dirt bike. He bought himself one too, so that we could ride together.
I will learn how to ride it and we will ride together one day, Daddy.
He was the best man I will ever know.
And I hope to be just like him.
-Theo
A memorial service with military honors to celebrate Alden’s life will be held on Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 6:00 p.m. at the Tarlton Complex on the campus of Catawba Valley Community College, 2540 Hwy 70 SE, Hickory, NC 28602. Rev. Josh Sherfey will officiate.
Alden deeply loved his family and took great pride in watching Theo’s path to becoming a young man. His family requests that in lieu of flowers, donations to an account set up for Theo’s benefit be made. Checks may be payable to Edward Jones for the benefit of Theo James Elliott.
Condolences may be sent to the Elliott family at www.bennettfuneralservice.com
The Elliott family is in the care of Bennett Funeral Service of Newton, 828-465-2111
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We were heading south on highway 16 today as his procession was headed north. We stopped at the St James Church Rd intersection. It was a moving experience for myself and my wife.

.
 
Landric said:
Maybe that attitude in law enforcement should change, but as we sit today, that is the attitude.
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in the very likely scenario that they start to come for average dudes like us when we irritate the wrong party in power, i seriously hope they stick with soft 3A armor. If they step up to harder stronger plates, i hope everybody finds a garand and some M2AP
 
GymB said:
Not a lawyer, but do have a relative that robbed a bank (and got caught because the license plate fell off his car in the parking lot)
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Jesus…not sure if I could bring myself to share that, if it were my relative. 😂
 
GymB said:
Not a lawyer, but do have a relative that robbed a bank (and got caught because the license plate fell off his car in the parking lot).

I believe that if someone is an active participant in a crime, for example being a get away driver, then they can be charge for all related crimes, so even the driver gets a murder charge if someone kills a teller. The house situation is different because the sandwich maker isn’t involved in any underlying criminal activity, they just happen to be in geographic proximity to a crime.

There have been cases where one friend gives another a lift to say a liquor store, the friend goes in and robs the place. The driver knew nothing about the planned robbery and isn’t convicted.
Click to expand...
Unless it has been repealed or changed, this is called the Felony Murder Rule. If you are involved in a felony of any kind that leads to a death you can be charged for murder.

Drop a friend off at the gas station and he shoots the attendent? Even if you don’t know about it and help him get away you can be charged. (Convicted perhaps not).

Famous example I know of was Janet Danahey back about 20 years ago set fire to a boyfriends couch in and vindictive act. The fire spread and killed 4 people. She was found guilty of felony murder and has been in jail since.
 
B00ger said:
Unless it has been repealed or changed, this is called the Felony Murder Rule. If you are involved in a felony of any kind that leads to a death you can be charged for murder.

Drop a friend off at the gas station and he shoots the attendent? Even if you don’t know about it and help him get away you can be charged. (Convicted perhaps not).

Famous example I know of was Janet Danahey back about 20 years ago set fire to a boyfriends couch in and vindictive act. The fire spread and killed 4 people. She was found guilty of felony murder and has been in jail since.
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Agreed, except that when a party is unaware that a crime is being committed it’s not possible to show that they were a participant in the crime or had intent to commit the crime. These folks likely become witnesses for the prosecution, rightfully pissed that they were dragged into someone else's mess.
 
Landric said:
Because it is heavy, bulky, and expensive. Also, agencies operate (at least in theory) on a cost-benefit analysis. Cops don't get killed by rifles that often, so the rifle plates won't make a difference in most cases.

When I started working the street in the 90's I had a pistol rated level 2 vest, a Beretta 92, and a Remington 870 issued to me (I also had a personally owned backup gun). No patrol rifles, no lights on pistols, halogen Maglites that were "super bright" at about 60 lumens, no weapon mounted lights on the shotguns. I worked in a county where everyone had a deer rifle. There were not as many AR type rifles around (just because not every company on the planet made one), but everyone's deer gun could shoot through a level 2 vest like it wasn't there. Rifle plates were available to the military, but we had basically no option to obtain them even if we had known about them and wanted them.

I say that because guys that started when I did are now in charge at most of these agencies (where did I go wrong?). They didn't have the stuff, so I expect it doesn't even occur to a lot of them. Especially not to the ones that are not "gun guys."
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The fact that very few people overall get shot with rifles is worth remembering, that is part of why the original AWB never made much of a difference.
 
Stogies said:
The fact that very few people overall get shot with rifles is worth remembering, that is part of why the original AWB never made much of a difference.
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Oh, the irony. They became popular following the silly “ban”, and very likely at least in part because of it. Now they’re clearly in common use, and hence protected against such acts, however being more prevalent(*) will undoubtedly mean more folks get shot with them, which will cause the communists to scream for a “ban” they can no longer have.

* Like when that crazy guy shot that politician in AZ with a Glock, which is also in very common use. There was a lot of outrage against Glocks.
 
Cowboy said:
Alden was a probation officer that I knew from a few interactions. He was a good man.

William Alden Elliott
June 2, 1977 - April 29, 2024
My daddy is a hero
He died getting the bad guys, that’s what he was good at.
He is a Marine.
He is a Police Officer.
He is kind and patient.
He keeps my mom and I safe.
He is my daddy; the best daddy.
We love playing video games together. He really likes Mario, Zelda, and Metroid Return of Samus.
We collect Pokemon cards. I have a Charizard that he helped me get graded.
He and I have watched every Star Wars movie and series.
My daddy loves playing and watching baseball. His favorite team is the Dodgers.
He is an expert marksman, perfect score every time.
For my 12th birthday he bought me a dirt bike. He bought himself one too, so that we could ride together.
I will learn how to ride it and we will ride together one day, Daddy.
He was the best man I will ever know.
And I hope to be just like him.
-Theo
A memorial service with military honors to celebrate Alden’s life will be held on Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 6:00 p.m. at the Tarlton Complex on the campus of Catawba Valley Community College, 2540 Hwy 70 SE, Hickory, NC 28602. Rev. Josh Sherfey will officiate.
Alden deeply loved his family and took great pride in watching Theo’s path to becoming a young man. His family requests that in lieu of flowers, donations to an account set up for Theo’s benefit be made. Checks may be payable to Edward Jones for the benefit of Theo James Elliott.
Condolences may be sent to the Elliott family at www.bennettfuneralservice.com
The Elliott family is in the care of Bennett Funeral Service of Newton, 828-465-2111
Click to expand...
He grew up 10 minutes from me and attended the high school 5 minutes away.
 
1075tech said:
When I was an MP, we couldn't get body armor even though it was in the supply system.

The battalion commander said it was cheaper to replace one MP in the unlikely event we were shot than to get vests for everyone
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He said the quiet part out loud.
 
BlackGun said:
He grew up 10 minutes from me and attended the high school 5 minutes away.
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My sis-in-law's husband and his family are very close to him and his family, grew up with him. My BIL said that they are strong Christian family, just very good people.
 
B00ger said:
Famous example I know of was Janet Danahey back about 20 years ago set fire to a boyfriends couch in and vindictive act. The fire spread and killed 4 people. She was found guilty of felony murder and has been in jail since.
Click to expand...

I was in nursing school at UNC-G when that happened, the fire killed one of my classmates, who was also in my clinical group. We were in clinical at Moses Cone that day and she didn't show up. The prof tried calling and of course couldn't get in touch. She finally got the news and was so bereft asked me to break the news to the clinical group (about a dozen of us). That was tough.
 
noway2 said:
* Like when that crazy guy shot that politician in AZ with a Glock, which is also in very common use. There was a lot of outrage against Glocks.
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don't forget that glocks were made popular by a famous movie claiming that some models couldn't be found with metal detectors... and that set congress into action trying to ban more things, which made people want to check them out, which made them very very VERY common.
 
Chuckman said:
I was in nursing school at UNC-G when that happened, the fire killed one of my classmates, who was also in my clinical group. We were in clinical at Moses Cone that day and she didn't show up. The prof tried calling and of course couldn't get in touch. She finally got the news and was so bereft asked me to break the news to the clinical group (about a dozen of us). That was tough.
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I went to high school with Janet. Drove her to school for a while, was in drama club with her. Terrible all around.
 
Landric said:
Because it is heavy, bulky, and expensive. Also, agencies operate (at least in theory) on a cost-benefit analysis. Cops don't get killed by rifles that often, so the rifle plates won't make a difference in most cases.

When I started working the street in the 90's I had a pistol rated level 2 vest, a Beretta 92, and a Remington 870 issued to me (I also had a personally owned backup gun). No patrol rifles, no lights on pistols, halogen Maglites that were "super bright" at about 60 lumens, no weapon mounted lights on the shotguns. I worked in a county where everyone had a deer rifle. There were not as many AR type rifles around (just because not every company on the planet made one), but everyone's deer gun could shoot through a level 2 vest like it wasn't there. Rifle plates were available to the military, but we had basically no option to obtain them even if we had known about them and wanted them.

I say that because guys that started when I did are now in charge at most of these agencies (where did I go wrong?). They didn't have the stuff, so I expect it doesn't even occur to a lot of them. Especially not to the ones that are not "gun guys."
Click to expand...
I have not really looked much at body armor yet. So is this more or less the gist of it: Soft armor is good enough for pistol rounds and commonly used by regular police, plate armor is needed for rifle rounds but usually reserved for high risk units like SWAT. That about correct?
 
Stogies said:
I have not really looked much at body armor yet. So is this more or less the gist of it: Soft armor is good enough for pistol rounds and commonly used by regular police, plate armor is needed for rifle rounds but usually reserved for high risk units like SWAT. That about correct?
Click to expand...

I would say generally yes, but the rifle plates are more of a mission driven thing, more than a unit driven thing.

I know lots of small agency officers that have bough rifle plates (me included) and there are many that have them available, but DUE TO the size, weight, bulk, etc don't wear them unless a high expectation of rifle gunfire exists. To be clear, just having them doesn't mean they go on on any danger call. And the coverage is another thing-as has been stated they are only usually 10x12 or 11x14 so side shots (unless you have side plates), pelvis and leg shots, and of course head shots are still possible. And sometimes even a high risk of rifle encounter doesn't GUARANTEE wearing them. I know "Coch" on Tactical Hyve said that most SEALs don't run them on many operations, preferring to rely on stealth, speed, and agility, and this was what I was also told by a local guy's son who is a veteran SEAL.
 
Part of the reason for some of my woes is that the hot axis and the crazy axis are sort of the same axis for me lol
 
At an early press conference CMPD Police Chump Jennings called it an “automatic AR” when asked what firearms were used. The reporter supposedly asked him using that way and he didn’t really correct or elaborate on it so the description has lingered.
 
NCFubar said:
At an early press conference CMPD Police Chump Jennings called it an “automatic AR” when asked what firearms were used. The reporter supposedly asked him using that way and he didn’t really correct or elaborate on it so the description has lingered.
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I watched the press conference. He did in fact say it was automatic as opposed to semi-automatic. The reporter tried to be clear, but I suspect the chief just didn’t understand the question.
 
My sister-in-law and her husband were here yesterday for my son's graduation party. We had a robust about this.

Alden recently got his basic EMT certification and was deemed a task force medic. When his friend was shot he ran over, and was shot through the chest, which hit his heart. There is debate on whether he had covering fire.

His wife declined to meet with Biden. She got a call from the White House secretary who said Biden wanted to meet with her in Charlotte, she said "no, thank you. I don't wish to meet with him."

There's a memorial service at the community college on Thursday, my SIL's husband's mom is speaking as she and Alden's mom are "best friend" for 40 years.
 
Big Dave said:
I would say generally yes, but the rifle plates are more of a mission driven thing, more than a unit driven thing.

I know lots of small agency officers that have bough rifle plates (me included) and there are many that have them available, but DUE TO the size, weight, bulk, etc don't wear them unless a high expectation of rifle gunfire exists. To be clear, just having them doesn't mean they go on on any danger call. And the coverage is another thing-as has been stated they are only usually 10x12 or 11x14 so side shots (unless you have side plates), pelvis and leg shots, and of course head shots are still possible. And sometimes even a high risk of rifle encounter doesn't GUARANTEE wearing them. I know "Coch" on Tactical Hyve said that most SEALs don't run them on many operations, preferring to rely on stealth, speed, and agility, and this was what I was also told by a local guy's son who is a veteran SEAL.
Click to expand...

The few times we worked with SEALs they wore BA, pretty well fully kitted out. I don't know if it was a platoon-level SOP or what. That was also 20ish years ago and things change.
 
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