Derek Chavin case - help me understand the charges

I have not personally seen or read either autopsy report in this case. However, based on what I have read from others who have seen or read each report, my understanding is that both reports concluded the ultimate cause of death was homicide.

If true, then that hurdle for the defense becomes a mountain in my opinion.
 
NKD said:
"There WAS a man being killed". That was the statement.
She knew this to be true, because the man was, in fact, killed. Her statement takes place after the event. Not sure if you are serious about this? But at the time of the event, there are people standing around saying "you are killing him" including this lady. They, and her, where 100% correct. Just trying to stick to facts. These are facts.
I am sorry you don't like that and would have preferred a stethoscope was involved.

But I get it: you wouldn't have got involved because of your extensive medical training and you would have done better on the stand because of your extensive court experience. Unfortunately you were not there to not save the day.
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You're placing facts after the case. If only we had a crystal ball. If he was not declared dead until after he was transported, how could they have known at the time that he was in fact come being killed? Perhaps he could have been resuscitated bills. perhaps he was merely unresponsive because he was hypoxic or had drugs on board. they had no way of knowing that he was in fact being killed, because that information did not come out until much later.

But yes, I would have done a much better job than that..person.

I'm not saying she should or should not have intervened off duty, but I am saying that it involves significant liability. I would not have intervened off duty, and in fact EMS had been called.

Been there, done that, and I welcome anyone else here who has been called to testify in LE related fatalities to give their insight.
 
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Button Pusher said:
LEO denied medical attention to Floyd, other LEO says 'I got no pulse, lets sit him up.' "HE STAYS WHERE HE IS". They will convict on manslaughter.
The eight plus minutes having his knee on the neck could have made a difference if medical care was not withheld.
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Yeah, that's a problem. As soon as they determined there was no pulse they should have started CPR immediately.
 
Chuckman said:
Yeah, that's a problem. As soon as they determined there was no pulse they should have started CPR immediately.
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Yes, since he was in handcuffs and not a threat to EMS or LEO, he needed medical attention. Not sure if they could have given him any meds to get him stable en route to the ER. He may have died no matter what but we will never know.
 
Button Pusher said:
LEO denied medical attention to Floyd, other LEO says 'I got no pulse, lets sit him up.' "HE STAYS WHERE HE IS". They will convict on manslaughter.
The eight plus minutes having his knee on the neck could have made a difference if medical care was not withheld.
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I agree. I heard from a podcast the defense was granted a prior body cam video of George Floyd resisting arrest that was within a few months of the incident.
 
Obviously few of you have seen all of the videos. There is ZERO malice here so nothing with intent will stick. If he was following procedure the again nothing will stick.

Those officers went way far above and beyond with this guy. They were amazingly nice.
 
Goofyfoot2001 said:
Obviously few of you have seen all of the videos. There is ZERO malice here so nothing with intent will stick. If he was following procedure the again nothing will stick.

Those officers went way far above and beyond with this guy. They were amazingly nice.
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I can disagree to a point, the officer and Floyd were known to eachother, they worked security at a local bar/club. Owner terminated the LEO for being too aggressive with customers. LEO should have let one of the others take over Floyd but he did not. They prosecution could say in closing that LEO wanted to teach Floyd a lesson that is why he stayed on his neck for so long, the man cried out for his mother, that is a fact. Is declining medical attention in the LEO training if the subject in custody is no longer armed or a threat to others? The riots, arson and other deaths in our cities would never have happened if the LEO backed off and let EMS and other LEO take control. edit: I have not seen all of the videos.
 
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Button Pusher said:
I can disagree to a point, the officer and Floyd were known to eachother, they worked security at a local bar/club. Owner terminated the LEO for being too aggressive with customers. LEO should have let one of the others take over Floyd but he did not. They prosecution could say in closing that LEO wanted to teach Floyd a lesson that is why he stayed on his neck for so long, the man cried out for his mother, that is a fact. Is declining medical attention in the LEO training if the subject in custody is no longer armed or a threat to others? The riots, arson and other deaths in our cities would never have happened if the LEO backed off and let EMS and other LEO take control. edit: I have not seen all of the videos.
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I believe the reason he couldn't just let the others handle it is there was two rookies one of like a few hours if IRCC. So in that video from the start you see a couple officers dealing with a combative subject and two that looked like monkeys humping a football. It's also probably the reason when the one said let's sit him up the answer was no. I think manslaughter fits and will ultimately be the verdict. The prosecution did a good job with the mma trained fighter explaining the shimming of his knee. So if it is more than manslaughter it's based on that testimony IMO.
 
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Chuckman said:
You're placing facts after the case. If only we had a crystal ball. If he was not declared dead until after he was transported, how could they have known at the time that he was in fact come being killed? Perhaps he could have been resuscitated bills. perhaps he was merely unresponsive because he was hypoxic or had drugs on board. they had no way of knowing that he was in fact being killed, because that information did not come out until much later.

But yes, I would have done a much better job than that..person.

I'm not saying she should or should not have intervened off duty, but I am saying that it involves significant liability. I would not have intervened off duty, and in fact EMS had been called.

Been there, done that, and I welcome anyone else here who has been called to testify in LE related fatalities to give their insight.
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What she said is exactly what happened. Period. Full stop.

But the bright side: you win the internet today. I can’t stand to read another sentence of you talking about yourself. Your ego is gigantic. 😂
 
NKD said:
What she said is exactly what happened. Period. Full stop.

But the bright side: you win the internet today. I can’t stand to read another sentence of you talking about yourself. Your ego is gigantic. 😂
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There are many things I don't do or can't do, at all or well. I can't build a birdhouse out of wood. I have a lot of tools, I use about three of them.

I have a hard time changing a tire. Change my oil, forget about it.

I can cook eggs and I can make cereal. Occasionally my toast does not burn and I feel pretty good about it.

When it comes to medical things, I am one of the best people I know. It's taken me 31 years to get here. I do not have a big ego, ask my coworkers. I'm constantly reading, studying, doing things to become better. I'm surrounded people who are better than I am and I work everyday to become better.

Performing on the stand in court? It took me being torn down a couple times and prepped by a competent attorney before I started to get it right. Notice I haven't talked about much of anything else regarding this case, that's out of my wheelhouse and all I have are wild guesses. But her? Oh yeah, she's an idiot.
 
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Catfish said:
The argument against Murder hinges onthe idea that Floyd had sealed his fate prior to the officer doing what he did. What if it wasnt drugs. Replace fentanyl with heart attack, allergic reaction, any number of things that can kill a man quietly... doesn't change a thing for me.

I do not want to live in a society where its ok for a LEO to kneel on a man's neck while he dies. That needs to be fixed and now. I don't care so much about charging this one man with a crime, I want the institution that trained him to do that to change.
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Never fought a overdosed drug addict that's determined to beat your azz have ya. I have. Do I agree with everything that happened, nope...have I had to fight for a long period with someone who, when narc'd up is multiple times their normal strength, yep.

From my understanding, and this is working off a long ago memory as I quit following it, but it seemed they had him in the car and he was going crazy. He was probably removed to wait for EMS and then became combatant again. Still, there were enough of them there that an alternative manner could have been used. And.....as we all know....the "street cinemaphotographer" video NEVER tells everything that happened.....just what it caught and after it was edited for content.

Do I speak from experience? Yep. Sitting on month 13 due to an injury from a narc'd up individual that was completely out of control.
 
premise said:
They need to ensure some type of guilty verdict can be reached so the reasonable folks of that dump of a state don't set more stuff on fire.
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If they wanted to ensure that they should have tried the guy in January.
 
Two things that I am taking away from this thread:

First, many here seem far more sympathetic to a white police officer who obviously abused his power and, at a minimum, contributed to the death of United States citizen, than they are to a restrained and obviously dying black man with drugs in his system.

Second, it’s clear that many here, thank God, have no experience with what it feels like to potentially lose your life at the hands of another person. If you did, you might be a bit more empathetic to a man who died scared, out-numbered and suffocated by multiple armed men.

I don’t know what the evidence will eventually show or what that jury will decide, but I do know this: Neither passing a counterfeit bill nor resisting arrest is a crime that carries a death sentence.
 
i watched the full video from several body cams and bystanders from the trial more than i cared to over the past several days

to me this trial has nothing to do with anything leading up to his restraint or even the first several minutes of the restraint. all of that looked justifiable.

this trial has everything to do with the final 4 minutes or so when chauvin continues to kneel on a guy who at best is passed out and at worst dead. the man is cuffed and under their care. Chauvin abused his authority and to me the evidence is clear that his actions contributed to george floyd’s death... and he either ignored or failed to recognize Floyd’s distress and did not render aid.

the report from the ambulance said they never felt a pulse so obviously in retrospect he was already dead...

personally i think that the off duty firefighter genevieve hansen owned chauvin’s lawyer who seems like he is out of his league

i don’t understand the MN law to address the multiple charges but expect some guilty verdict.

i certainly don’t believe chauvin woke up and said i think i’ll kill a black guy today but the videos showed him acteing like someone who treated a suspect like this before who felt justified with no remorse or concern
 
Steve Sellers said:
Two things that I am taking away from this thread:

First, many here seem far more sympathetic to a white police officer who obviously abused his power and, at a minimum, contributed to the death of United States citizen, than they are to a restrained and obviously dying black man with drugs in his system.

Second, it’s clear that many here, thank God, have no experience with what it feels like to potentially lose your life at the hands of another person. If you did, you might be a bit more empathetic to a man who died scared, out-numbered and suffocated by multiple armed men.

I don’t know what the evidence will eventually show or what that jury will decide, but I do know this: Neither passing a counterfeit bill nor resisting arrest is a crime that carries a death sentence.
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Has nothing to fkin do with race. You are the only one that has brought up race. Stop being racist. If floyd had obeyed the police officers the first and second times he would be alive. As it stands manslaughter is all there is here.
 
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Steve Sellers said:
Two things that I am taking away from this thread:

First, many here seem far more sympathetic to a white police officer who obviously abused his power and, at a minimum, contributed to the death of United States citizen, than they are to a restrained and obviously dying black man with drugs in his system.

Second, it’s clear that many here, thank God, have no experience with what it feels like to potentially lose your life at the hands of another person. If you did, you might be a bit more empathetic to a man who died scared, out-numbered and suffocated by multiple armed men.

I don’t know what the evidence will eventually show or what that jury will decide, but I do know this: Neither passing a counterfeit bill nor resisting arrest is a crime that carries a death sentence.
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Maybe some of us know what it's like to lose a loved one to a doped up criminal. You know, the kind that would have no issue holding a gun a pregnant woman so as to break into her house.

Maybe some of us see the blatant media bias when there are numerous instances of a white man being unfairly gunned down by police. An old white man from my town was shot by a black policeman for simply reaching into the truck for his cane. Be real damn honest when you tell me why you don't know either of their names.

Maybe some of us believe burning entire cities across this country in the name of justice is complete, unadulterated BS.

Maybe some of us who were told we couldn't attend a loved ones funeral due to covid regulations while they paraded this worthless criminal POSs body from state to state for straight-up mass gatherings masquerading as funerals.

And maybe some of us know that the world being short one criminal asshole with a 3" thick rap sheet really isn't the biggest loss folks would make it out to be.

I couldn't care less what they do to the cop, truly. I do know what many shop owners in major cities will doing if the moronic, glued to their screen masses don't get their pound of flesh from the verdict.
 
Qball said:
Here's how I see it. To me, it doesn't matter if George Floyd was overdosing on 4 times the lethal dose of anything. He was alive and handcuffed at the start of the last 9-1/2 minutes of his life. Whether he was a habitual criminal or the most respected law abiding citizen of the land doesn't matter one bit in my book. If he put up major resistance including punching, kicking, or trying to flee, makes no difference in my opinion. He was ultimately subdued with his hands cuffed behind his back.

Let's forget about the drugs in his system for a moment. What if he had ran a red traffic light and got t-boned by a semi while running from the cops? He's laying there with his hands cuffed behind his back while dying from his injuries while a law enforcement officer kneels on his neck for almost 10 minutes and does absolutely nothing to render any aid and prohibits others nearby from doing the same.

Now let's insert the drugs back into the story. To me nothing changes. There was a suspect, in medical distress, with his hands cuffed behind his back while a law enforcement officer kneeled on his neck and back for 10 minutes while others nearby, including an off-duty EMS technician, pleaded with the officer to get off of Floyd so some sort of medical intervention could be implemented. Chauvin refused to get up and after 9-1/2 minutes or so, Floyd was dead or close to death. No first aid or resuscitation efforts were ever performed, or allowed to be performed.

What's interesting to me is the fact that Chauvin's fellow officers stood there and told Floyd to get up or asked him why he wasn't getting up while Chauvin sat there with his knee on his neck and back. This guy was murdered in my opinion over something as trivial as a counterfeit $20 bill.
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If I understand correctly there were enough drugs in his system such that he would have died anyway. Likely if those drugs weren't there, at the end of those 9 1/2 minutes a pissed off George Floyd would have been simply put into a police car and carted off to jail just fine.

If that's the case, there's no murder.

Don't get me wrong. That cop is a jerk. And what he did to another human was terrible.

But murder has a definition. My emotions don't change the definition. He either killed the guy or he didn't. Unless that off duty EMT had a miracle in her pocket, George was a dead man anyway.

Just like you said about an injury rather than drugs, if he's dying anyway, the cop didn't kill him.

The cop should be charged with SOMETHING....but not Floyd's death. He didn't kill the man. The man killed himself. The cop just insured that his death was as miserable as possible.
 
Steve Sellers said:
Two things that I am taking away from this thread:

First, many here seem far more sympathetic to a white police officer who obviously abused his power and, at a minimum, contributed to the death of United States citizen, than they are to a restrained and obviously dying black man with drugs in his system.

Second, it’s clear that many here, thank God, have no experience with what it feels like to potentially lose your life at the hands of another person. If you did, you might be a bit more empathetic to a man who died scared, out-numbered and suffocated by multiple armed men.

I don’t know what the evidence will eventually show or what that jury will decide, but I do know this: Neither passing a counterfeit bill nor resisting arrest is a crime that carries a death sentence.
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I do know what it's like to potentially loose my life at the hands of another....thank God the man who shot at me from less than 30 ft was a crappy shot. Empathy? I showed empathy when I didn't kill that mf'er for attempting to take my life.

What about the recent MURDER of the 80 yo woman in SC......did her killer show empathy towards her? Or is that different in your eyes?
 
HMP said:
I was just wondering how they could charge three different murder/homicide charges for one death, wasnt trying to bring up all this stuff. Geez Louise.
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Simply put, a person can be charged with multiple counts for one murder. POS that killed my dad is away on two murder charges for having done so.
 
I can safely say jurors in that deliberation room will be influenced by fear of rioting and the public turning on them and family. Guilty or not that will be on their minds. One thing for sure, the police will not protect them which has been proven.
 
Goofyfoot2001 said:
Has nothing to fkin do with race. You are the only one that has brought up race. Stop being racist. If floyd had obeyed the police officers the first and second times he would be alive. As it stands manslaughter is all there is here.
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I included the reference to race as one of several facts relevant to each man. George Floyd was many things: among them, apparently drugged, restrained, obviously dying, a citizen and black. Chauvin was a police officer, in a position of power (which he abused) and white. Perhaps race had absolutely nothing to do with what happened here. I think that’s unlikely, but it could be true. Regardless, assume that all this was, was a police officer abusing his position of power in a way that contributed to the death of a restrained citizen. My anger remains. As does my surprise at some of the reactions here, many of which suggest that George Floyd’s death wasn’t really all that tragic or undeserved. Makes me wonder why that is. His criminality? His failure to obey law enforcement in precisely the way they wanted to be obeyed? His race? Something else entirely?

The post was not racist, although I’m not surprised that was your reaction. It’s a convenient response under the circumstances. I’m just trying to figure out how the reactions I’m seeing to an obvious abuse of government authority square with the Don’t Tread On Me ethos that seems to otherwise pervade the forum. Something about this particular abuse of power makes it a little easier for many of us to swallow, for some reason. Much easier than if the government tried to, say, criminalize and take some of your precious property. The disconnect there is obvious to me, and also very confusing.

To the OP: The reason you can be charged and convicted of multiple charges for a single death is that the death itself is only one element in a wide range of distinct criminal charges. The same death could be factually tied to a litany of other circumstances, actions and mindsets, all of which support a range of potentially criminal conduct. That’s why it was so significant that the third charge was reinstated in this case. It is the rough equivalent of common-law (reckless) murder, and the only murder charge of the two that seems to have any realistic chance of getting a conviction.
 
That medic bystander should be charged with contempt and her testimony scrubbed. Showing up in uniform, ferried around in official fire dept. car is so prejudicial, just like her murder outburst. I hope the truth of that miserable sob's demise comes out loud and clear. The million dollar payouts should be clawed back and awarded to the traumatized cops. How can anyone with a straight face declare Chauvin racist or abusing his power? Those cops tried their best to keep that creature calm. Another absurd injustice to promote racial discord with lies.
 
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From what the jury break down is I think he has an appeal built in because of selection a specific juror.


Juror No. 2: A woman of mixed race who appears to be in her 20s or 30s. She said she was “super excited” about getting the jury questionnaire form.
 
Relapse said:
How can anyone with a straight face declare Chauvin racist or abusing his power?
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How can anyone who loves freedom and hates tyranny think otherwise? I struck out racism because I don't know what's in his head. But even without regard to race, I suppose a LEO bootlicker might think he behaved correctly. I do not.
 
IMO, I think the DA Casey Antony'ed him.

They, IMO, charged him with things they can't convict him of, instead of going with a lower charge they can get.

To whit: The suspect was known to have a violent past by the arresting officers, was much larger than the arresting officers, the Minnesota police have a procedure for putting a knee on someone neck, so he was following procedure. However, not all the way, as he didn't put him in a recovery position. There was lethal amounts of drugs in Floyd's system. Some levels of qualified immunity as a police officer.

I think there is enough mitigating factors, mentioned above, to allow him to beat third degree murder and the manslaughter charge. I think he's definitely guilty of negligent homicide. What he did was inexcusable. They just did too high a charge, IMO, reaching for something they can't get.

Shapiro's analysis of the charges at 6:50:

 
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pinkbunny said:
IMO, I think the DA Casey Antony'ed him.

They, IMO, charged him with things they can't convict him of, instead of going with a lower charge they can get.

To whit: The suspect was known to have a violent past by the arresting officers, was much larger than the arresting officers, the Minnesota have a procedure for putting a knee on someone neck, so he was following procedure. However, not all the way, as he didn't put him in a recovery position. There was lethal amounts of drugs in Floyd's system. Some levels of qualified immunity as a police officer.

I think there is enough mitigating factors, mentioned above, to allow him to beat second degree murder and the manslaughter charge. I think he's definitely guilty of negligent homicide. What he did was inexcusable. They just did too high a charge, IMO, reaching for something they can't get.

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I do not know Minnesota law: does the jury decide on those charges, only; or can they consider lesser charges (I know some states can do this)?

I also feel he was overcharged...the prosecution is swinging for the fences because of the social politics of the case, not because of jurisprudence.
 
Steve Sellers said:
I’m just trying to figure out how the reactions I’m seeing to an obvious abuse of government authority square with the Don’t Tread On Me ethos that seems to otherwise pervade the forum. Something about this particular abuse of power makes it a little easier for many of us to swallow, for some reason. Much easier than if the government tried to, say, criminalize and take some of your precious property. The disconnect there is obvious to me, and also very confusing.
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You are raising a good point and I agree with you that there is something different about this particular case in that it is not triggering the normal abuse of power, anti cop, anti govt. outrage that other cases have. I think it’s a combination of things:

1) I think normal people are getting really tired of the anti white narratives that are being pushed into our faces that it does cause some feelings that people aren’t going to comfortable discussing, at least publicly. A lot of people who otherwise don’t or didn’t care about race have started to.

2) Disgust with the reaction from the black ‘community” of burn down the CVS, rioting in the streets, the NFAC bozos and everything else. This is heightened by race based prosecution or lack there of with the system going after whites and patriots with the full force of the surveillance / police state while if your black and antifa you get away free.

3) there is some lack of sympathy for a piece of trash like Floyd who had a long record of violence. Again, the “system” failed like it usually does as he was both out in public and massively drugged up.

4) an overall loss of faith in the legal system, courts, government in general that really took a turn with disgust over the stolen election causing a general sensation of apathy.
 
two fingers said:
If I understand correctly there were enough drugs in his system such that he would have died anyway. Likely if those drugs weren't there, at the end of those 9 1/2 minutes a pissed off George Floyd would have been simply put into a police car and carted off to jail just fine.

If that's the case, there's no murder.

Don't get me wrong. That cop is a jerk. And what he did to another human was terrible.

But murder has a definition. My emotions don't change the definition. He either killed the guy or he didn't. Unless that off duty EMT had a miracle in her pocket, George was a dead man anyway.

Just like you said about an injury rather than drugs, if he's dying anyway, the cop didn't kill him.

The cop should be charged with SOMETHING....but not Floyd's death. He didn't kill the man. The man killed himself. The cop just insured that his death was as miserable as possible.
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I can agree with your response. In the eyes of the law, I’m sure it isn’t murder.

I’m very conservative and agree that the cities up there that have been burning as a result of this case, have been so at the hands of paid agitators just like Miami has experienced recently even though the irresponsible media referred to them as “Spring Breakers”.

I do get all of that and agree with many folks here that Floyd was a troubled individual with a lengthy criminal record.

That said, in instances such as this one involving law enforcement, I always try to ask myself how I think myself or any other non-law enforcement individual(s) would be treated by the justice system under the same circumstances. That’s what drives my interpretations of cases such as this one.

I have no sympathy at all for Chauvin, his fellow officers, or Floyd for that matter. They are all responsible for the position they found themselves in that fateful day.

Would something else have set off a lot of this insanity we have been seeing since this unfortunate event last May? Probably. But I’d hate to be the central figure to it all.
 
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Bottom line is Floyd killed himself by physically resisting arrest. Chavin used legal force and at no time showed intent to kill by force. The jury will acquit and the racists will continue to blame the system for their plight rather than conform to a civil society....burn, baby, burn.
 
Qball said:
I can agree with your response. In the eyes of the law, I’m sure it isn’t murder.

I’m very conservative and agree that the cities up there that have been burning as a result of this case, have been so at the hands of paid agitators just like Miami has experienced recently even though the irresponsible media referred to them as “Spring Breakers”.

I do get all of that and agree with many folks here that Floyd was a troubled individual with a lengthy criminal record.

That said, in instances such as this one involving law enforcement, I always try to ask myself how I think myself or any other non-law enforcement individual(s) would be treated by the justice system under the same circumstances. That’s what drives my interpretations of cases such as this one.

I have no sympathy at all for Chauvin, his fellow officers, or Floyd for that matter. They are all responsible for the position they found themselves in that fateful day.

Would something else have set off a lot of this insanity we have been seeing since this unfortunate event last May? Probably. But I’d hate to be the central figure to it all.
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With me, the law is cut and dry. Part of our damn problem in this country is "interpretations" of the law. Either the guy was murdered or he wasn't. Now, "assault" or some other charge we can haggle over. But don't go charging someone with murder if the dude was gonna die anyway. "Being a douchebag" isn't illegal. If there is some policy or law that he broke, he should pay the price. But being charged with, or convicted of, murder just so we all feel better about throwing the book at a douchebag is not right.
 
They are overcharging just like the Treyvon Martian case.
 
two fingers said:
With me, the law is cut and dry. Part of our damn problem in this country is "interpretations" of the law. Either the guy was murdered or he wasn't. Now, "assault" or some other charge we can haggle over. But don't go charging someone with murder if the dude was gonna die anyway. "Being a douchebag" isn't illegal. If there is some policy or law that he broke, he should pay the price. But being charged with, or convicted of, murder just so we all feel better about throwing the book at a douchebag is not right.
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It should be cut and dry. Chauvin needs to pay the same price myself or any other non-LEO would have to pay had we been kneeling on a restrained man that was having a life-threatening medical issue for over 9 minutes.
 
The drug dealer that was in the car with him is going to plead the 5th and not answer questions. That could possibly go a long way in persuading the jury of doubt.
 
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