Failure to extract, rim ripped off case

As a side note. I have seen where "softer" primers (federal in my case) would flatten some with the same higher power loads used with other primers. But gave the same data.across a Chrono.

But seeing that funky unfired crimp makes me wary. Either Norma put out an out of spec batch (even though they claim consistent performance is their goal and I do like their brass for the same) or there is something is out of spec with your chamber and after 70 rounds it finally caught up to it with that malfunction.

Inspect the heck out of your rifle. Clean, inspect again. Shoot and analyze other factory loads. Then contact Norma. Bet they'd like to know if they sent out something bad. The one time I called CS was gtg.
 
I suspect a combination of it being slightly over-gassed and an under-sized chamber. As you said, with brass at 2:30, shouldn’t be over-gassed enough to be ripping case rims off. As I mentioned before, definitely not an extractor problem as it is clearly doing its job holding onto those rims. Unless you are getting those same high-pressure signs out of another 5.56 chamber with that same batch of ammo, I wouldn’t chalk it up as an ammo problem yet. If you can’t verify the headspace yourself I would recommend returning to Brownells or sending it in to the manufacturer for a check up.
 
I just emailed Norma using the contact form on their site. There's no provision to send a photo so I just described the issue. I offered to use my inertia puller to dissect one and measure the powder charge for them. We'll see what they say.

As I'm just getting back into .223/5.56 all I have is Norma ammo at this point. I have some .223 from them that should be a little less energetic. I do also have a doppler chronograph. I could get some data, but I've got reservations about it being smart to continue shooting this stuff. This is the only .223/5.56 rifle I have.
 
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After reading this thread, @Mr. Robot thread in Handguns regarding Sig ammunition and threads on other places, it confirms what I thought would happen…

A lot of QC issues are starting to rear their ugly head. Personally, I believe it’s a combination of issues:

- Production ramped up to levels we’ve likely never seen before.

- Manufacturers may be having difficulties sourcing components or even raw materials and possibly using “whatever they can find”.

- New manufacturers, jumping into the market “while it’s hot”, who are likely more concerned with quantity over quality and are willing to use the absolute cheapest materials/equipment available.

- Demand is high, economy is bad, folks may be willing to take a chance on cheaper/questionable ammo, just so they can “get a lot more of it”.

Throw all this together and it is a recipe for disaster…it is ammunition, not ink pens. If/when it fails, it may not be isolated to just the range; and even if it is just at the range, the consequences of poor QC may result in not only damaged/destroyed firearms, but also damaged/destroyed people.
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
Is this stuff European or American?
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I'm assuming American as it doesn't say. I searched the boxes with a magnifer to see where it was made as I was hoping it was Swiss or German when I got it. All the euro ammo states on the box where it came from.
 
First, that's a non-traditional gas system, so that should be the first place to suspect, as a matter of principle. But, all of your cases are also showing signs of over pressure. All the cases look like they've had a rough time in the chamber, including the tell-tale ring forward of the case head. Over gassing maybe, exacerbated by the over pressure? The case rim issue is the case being extracted while the case is still expanded against the chamber walls. So, the brass hasn't had time to rebound and it's being violently ripped out of the chamber. And sometimes, the rim fails.

You need to fire some other loads in the gun so see if the problem follows the ammo. Academy is heavy in Winchester right now. Rock Hill had plenty. I suspect the gas system isn't right, as the core issue and the Norma ammo not right as a secondary.
 
@Timfoilhat

Attached is my $0.01 on this subject.

IF I was going to test this, I would use the same bolt, different firearm, same ammunition and see if it's the chamber or ammunition.
 

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georgel said:
First, that's a non-traditional gas system, so that should be the first place to suspect, as a matter of principle. But, all of your cases are also showing signs of over pressure. All the cases look like they've had a rough time in the chamber, including the tell-tale ring forward of the case head. Over gassing maybe, exacerbated by the over pressure? The case rim issue is the case being extracted while the case is still expanded against the chamber walls. So, the brass hasn't had time to rebound and it's being violently ripped out of the chamber. And sometimes, the rim fails.

You need to fire some other loads in the gun so see if the problem follows the ammo. Academy is heavy in Winchester right now. Rock Hill had plenty. I suspect the gas system isn't right, as the core issue and the Norma ammo not right as a secondary.
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This is exactly my though process, put much more succinctly and intelligently
 
Funny norma Puts German made on their .223 and made with German input on their 5.56. I have a fairly large German norma order coming in and am way less worried about that
 
recreationalhandgrenade said:
Funny norma Puts German made on their .223 and made with German input on their 5.56. I have a fairly large German norma order coming in and am way less worried about that
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I have some German .223 here. I'll get to it next time I take out the rifle. Probably going to find myself a little M855 to in order to do some comparison testing.
 
Foxtrot Mike just responded and believes this to be the result of an over-pressure round. They suggested a through cleaning followed by continued break-in. Asked me to follow up should this happen a second time.
 
Timfoilhat said:
Foxtrot Mike just responded and believes this to be the result of an over-pressure round. They suggested a through cleaning followed by continued break-in. Asked me to follow up should this happen a second time.
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Yeah, keep shooting it and let us know if it blows your face off.
 
Timfoilhat said:
Foxtrot Mike just responded and believes this to be the result of an over-pressure round. They suggested a through cleaning followed by continued break-in. Asked me to follow up should this happen a second time.
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So they are saying continue to “abuse” your firearm to see if it happens a second time?
 
NCFubar said:
So they are saying continue to “abuse” your firearm to see if it happens a second time?
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I didn't get that impression. They offered that they have good results with Federal M193. I'm able to read between the lines and see they're recommending I shoot different 5.56 without criticizing Norma by name.
 
Timfoilhat said:
I didn't get that impression. They offered that they have good results with Federal M193. I'm able to read between the lines and see they're recommending I shoot different 5.56 without criticizing Norma by name.
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Doh! … My mistake … I just remembered they are the carbine manufacturer and they aren’t connected to the Norma ammo.
 
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I opened up 10 of the Norma 5.56 selected at random to measure the powder charges.
They range from 26.2 to 26.6 grains of powder. I'm not qualified to assert an opinion on that level of apparent inconsistency. Perhaps it's within preset manufacturing tolerances, but based upon my experience hand loading it appears to be worth questioning.
Another observation is the crimp seems inconsistent based upon the effort required to remove the projectiles. I used an inertia hammer type puller. Most took about 4 sets of 10 whacks. One took 7 sets of 10 whacks. That seemed 🤔. A too tight crimp could cause undue pressure to build up.
As a novice I'm not sure if it's normal, but you can see an impression from the cannelure on the inner rim of the mouth of the brass.

I went and shot a few rounds of Norma .233 made in Germany. Brass came out clean and no chunks missing under the rim from the extractor.
 
If you're saying you tried a different batch of ammo and it runs fine then that original batch is bad and you need to contact Norma. Keep those boxes for the lot number.
 
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Timfoilhat said:
I opened up 10 of the Norma 5.56 selected at random to measure the powder charges.
They range from 26.2 to 26.6 grains of powder. I'm not qualified to assert an opinion on that level of apparent inconsistency. Perhaps it's within preset manufacturing tolerances, but based upon my experience hand loading it appears to be worth questioning.
Another observation is the crimp seems inconsistent based upon the effort required to remove the projectiles. I used an inertia hammer type puller. Most took about 4 sets of 10 whacks. One took 7 sets of 10 whacks. That seemed 🤔. A too tight crimp could cause undue pressure to build up.
As a novice I'm not sure if it's normal, but you can see an impression from the cannelure on the inner rim of the mouth of the brass.

I went and shot a few rounds of Norma .233 made in Germany. Brass came out clean and no chunks missing under the rim from the extractor.
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The range sort of depends what their target charge was. If it’s 26.4, then +/- .2 isn’t huge. If their charge weight is supposed to be 26.0, then that’s pretty rough.

Assuming it’s ball powder of some kind?

That odd crimp on the one piece of brass is…odd. Are they all crimped or just sporadically?

I’d ask norma to swap it out and scrub that chamber really well
 
11B CIB said:
The range sort of depends what their target charge was. If it’s 26.4, then +/- .2 isn’t huge. If their charge weight is supposed to be 26.0, then that’s pretty rough.

Assuming it’s ball powder of some kind?

That odd crimp on the one piece of brass is…odd. Are they all crimped or just sporadically?

I’d ask norma to swap it out and scrub that chamber really well
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Their crimp isn't a taper. It looks like it is some kind of mechanical pinch crimp with maybe 10-12 points of contact that just squash it down tight. You can't really see it, but your fingernail can catch the raised edges the method creates. I tried to draw blue lines to the spots I'm talking about.

20220625_201514.jpg
 
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Glad that you have found the issue. Looking at those crimp impressions and the offset primer crimp impressions, I’d check lot numbers with all your other Norma ammo.
 
Norma got back to me today. I sent them a bunch of pictures they requested. Among them was this one and something I hadn't considered previously...seating depth is not uniform. That could absolutely cause a pressure spike. This photo was not cherry picked, it was three random rounds off the top of the open box I had.
I believe they're currently initiating a return for me.

20220628_092136.jpg
 
Timfoilhat said:
Norma got back to me today. I sent them a bunch of pictures they requested. Among them was this one and something I hadn't considered previously...seating depth is not uniform. That could absolutely cause a pressure spike. This photo was not cherry picked, it was three random rounds off the top of the open box I had.
I believe they're currently initiating a return for me.

View attachment 491037
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Just a guess but with the primer problems and seating depth … there’s gonna be a run (lot number) where their machine(s) we’re not functioning correctly due to setup, calibration, etc. The bigger question is how much made it thru QC and out to the consumer?
 
Timfoilhat said:
Norma got back to me today. I sent them a bunch of pictures they requested. Among them was this one and something I hadn't considered previously...seating depth is not uniform. That could absolutely cause a pressure spike. This photo was not cherry picked, it was three random rounds off the top of the open box I had.
I believe they're currently initiating a return for me.

View attachment 491037
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Maybe, 223wylde has less freebore than 5.56, but I doubt that the difference shown here is enough to push the bullet into the rifling. You can figure it out by plunking a long round and seeing if it spins.
 
I've seen this happen quite a few times. In every case it was an ammo problem, nothing to do with the firearm. I have one rifle in particular that has over 10k rounds through it without a single malfunction, except for all the malfunctions I had with one particular lot of ammo where this exact thing would happen once or twice every magazine. Only way to get the round out was to drop a rod down the barrel.
 
As follow up I just received my refund. I was paid in full for 8 boxes returned, while I only actually sent them 7 and a partial. I had to wait two weeks and received the refund today after I emailed to check on the progress. No comment was made regarding any findings relative to their inspection of what I sent back.
I'll still gladly buy the Norma built overseas, but I'm going to take a break buying centerfire from the USA contracted plant for a while.
They have German made .223 in stock right now, so my next stop is to replace the stuff I sent back.

I've continued to shoot the rifle and it's doing well and not beating up brass or having reliability issues of any kind.
 
Timfoilhat said:
As follow up I just received my refund. I was paid in full for 8 boxes returned, while I only actually sent them 7 and a partial. I had to wait two weeks and received the refund today after I emailed to check on the progress. No comment was made regarding any findings relative to their inspection of what I sent back.
I'll still gladly buy the Norma built overseas, but I'm going to take a break buying centerfire from the USA contracted plant for a while.
They have German made .223 in stock right now, so my next stop is to replace the stuff I sent back.

I've continued to shoot the rifle and it's doing well and not beating up brass or having reliability issues of any kind.
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It ain't like they're just an importer selling other peoples stuff. This American plant has scared me off the German ammo. My logic being if they're willing to stamp their name on that stuff I'm not about to get a warning about future German gernades.
 
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