Firearm Accident at a Competition

Tim

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This could have gone in any of several sub-forums. And, I wasn’t going to talk about it all except the match director has - to his credit - been very open and forthright in making the issue public so we can all learn.

At a match, there was a stage that required re-holstering a hot pistol between positions. A competitor shot himself through the calf while attempting to re-holster. First such incident in 20+ events run by this match director.

The RO had a pressure bandage applied in seconds, he was transported off the stage (not close to a road) and in the care of EMS in 25 minutes. Patched up and back at the venue by the end of the day. He’s doing fine.

Lessons:

1. I’ve RO’d hundreds of shooters and have always thought that holstering is the most dangerous thing anyone does at an event. Especially tired, amped up and wearing/carrying gear you may not be accustomed to. PRACTICE holsterimg intentionally. SLOW down. Keep your holster area free of clutter (clothing, straps, gear, etc).

2. KNOW how to use your IFAK. We all carry one (right?), but do you know how to use it? Get some training. A “Stop the Bleed” course is worth your time. And 1 class isn’t sufficient. Take several, take the same one again. Just do some actual training on a regular basis to stay up to speed.

3. Have a plan before it happens. Having RO’d with this group (though not at this match), I know that it’s typical to talk through ahead of time who is going to attend to the victim, who is handling comms (and what those comms are…phone, radio, who to call, where you are, etc), who is handling transport and who is dealing with everything else (keeping others out of the way, securing weapons, taking notes…)

4. Be vigilant. If you see an unsafe act, or notice someone struggling, it’s not the time to be polite or passive. Step in, speak up and take care of business.

I am really impressed with how the MD is handling this. Good lessons all around.
 
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Sorry that some was hurt. Your takeaways are solid lessons for everyone. Thanks for posting.
 
So what was it. Finger on the trigger or a piece of gear cause the ND?
 
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Glad everyone is OK. Good exercise for the match team.

I agree, when you make holstering part of the timed event, it's asking for trouble. Speed holstering shouldn't be part of the exercise.
 
good that it came out so well in the end

bad that it had to happen. how was his holster pointed at is calf? doesn't everybody contort their body into awkward positions when holstering a gun? 3o'clock - lean far to the left. 4-6o'clock, lean forward. in both cases, grip is right against my body and the inside of the holster guides the muzzle into place. It's very uncomfortable, but i hope to never have this kind of experience.
 
DrPhudd said:
Was the re-holstering on the clock?
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Yes. The course of fire called for engaging with pistol, holstering, move to new position, engage with pistol.

Keep in mind this was a Run n Gun event, not a typical IDPA/USPSA/3Gun type event with dozens of people standing around a stage. Just the shooter and 2-3 ROs.

And, the philosophy of these events is to train for and test your fitness for something close to real-world situations. I do not fault the stage design AT ALL for this incident.

EDIT: The rule set also calls specifically for retention holsters worn outside the waistband. No CCW, floppy nylon, etc. The pre-match brief emphasizes holstering as something to be paid particular attention to.
 
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Tim said:
At a match, there was a stage that required re-holstering a hot pistol between positions.
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One of the first things I .earned outside of the 4 basic rules is that holstering is dangerous, especially with striker fired pistols without a grip safety. Go slow, take your time, make sure nothing is in the way that can squeeze that trigger.
 
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I'm glad the competitor wasn't seriously hurt. (I know, I know a gunshot wound is serious, but I'm talking about a life threatening injury.) I hope he fully recovers & learns from his mistake.

Kudos to the MD & those who attended to this incident. Sounds like they were prepared & did what needed to be done.

And from what I've read above,, it points to the competitor doing what we all consider an unsafe move,,, "FINGER ON THE TRIGGER" . We teach that you do not put your finger on a trigger unless you are actually engaging a target. In USPSA competition, it can get you a match DQ. A safety violation. Putting the finger on the trigger while pointing the firearm towards the body is another no-no. Another basic safety rule violation; "DO NOT POINT THE FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY." While the holster was most likely allowed for that type of competition, and allowed the competitor to point the firearm at his leg,, if the finger had not been on the trigger, (according to the info above,) it would not have been as big an issue. Many holsters that are legal to use in competition, often point a firearm at a small part of the body when the gun is holstered. Body shapes & how a holster rides on a belt causes this to happen.

Striker fired guns come with the NEED to pay closer attention to your equipment. Especially those firearms with a safety lever as part of the trigger. Sadly,, there have been cases where clothing or other objects allowed a striker fired gun, where the safety lever is part of the trigger created a negligent discharge.

Unfortunately,, it's things like this that give the anti-gun people excuses to attack shooting of all kinds. No matter WHY,, they use these things.

But we are all human. We all make mistakes. Not an adult soul alive can say they've never made a mistake that could have possibly resulted in injury or even death. (Unless totally paralized or incapable of moving their body.) We drive cars, we operate machinery, we hike, camp, make fires, etc. Occasionally,, the mistakes we make cause damage or even serious injury & death. It's a perfect world inhabited by imperfect people.
 
I WAG's some numbers for this incident. I'm pretty sure these are CONSERVATIVE estimates, meaning the actual incident rate is likely much lower than this.

This MD has hosted ~20 of these events.
Average 85 shooters per (likely low, more like 100)
Typically 5-6 stages, call it 5.5 stages for the math
Typically 15 IMPACTS per stage, so actual ROUND COUNT is likely double that, but we'll go with 15 for the math.

That works out to..
20*85*5.5*15= 140,250 rounds fired (likely significantly higher)

1 incident.

1/140,250 = 0.000007

So, an "incident rate" of 0.0007%

Safer than walking to the mailbox!
 
People are so programmed to dry fire, they do not often practice the holstering. The NDs mostly go back to keeping your damn finger away from the trigger. If it means that to be safe people come to a complete stop, look at their hand/gun and holster as they holster, then start back, then so be it.
 
Have been to several types of matches that re-holstering on the clock is allowed, and even some where it has been required. 2gun/3gun mainly.

It's very dangerous, and should be avoided at most matches. BUT, in some it should be allowed. At the ones I have been to, they are competition or duty holsters, and the dangers are well described and brought up on stage walk-through. People that may not be comfortable with it are encouraged NOT to do it. Very common in 3gun. In 3gun there is always the option to put the gun in a bucket instead.

The one match I have been to where it was required on a stage to re-holster, it was also while you were sitting in a car with and required to re-holster and engage targets while exiting car with a sluing rifle! Very dangerous maneuver! But it is a match focused on police training, and the reality is that police often need to re-holster during very stressful and active situations and need to train for that under stress.

I personally set up my comp holsters and cant to avoid the muzzle ever pointing at me while holstered or holstering. I often shoot a single action race gun with a very short travel sub- 2lb trigger. I have had a gun go off in a holster, and had it been set-up like the majority I have seen, I would have shot my leg with a .40S&W major round. Bad day, indeed.
 
Chuckman said:
People are so programmed to dry fire, they do not often practice the holstering. The NDs mostly go back to keeping your damn finger away from the trigger. If it means that to be safe people come to a complete stop, look at their hand/gun and holster as they holster, then start back, then so be it.
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They aren't really dry firing correctly then.
I've done tens/hundreds of thousands of re-holstering during dry fire. Dry fire is where you practice everything including drawing and holstering.
 
NKD said:
They aren't really dry firing correctly then.
I've done tens/hundreds of thousands of re-holstering during dry fire. Dry fire is where you practice everything including drawing and holstering.
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I agree. But this is what often happens. Then you see the result on the range, the bendy-over sideways, pull crap away from the holster, stare down at the holster.

Dry firing should encompass EVERYTHING.
 
Chuckman said:
I agree. But this is what often happens. Then you see the result on the range, the bendy-over sideways, pull crap away from the holster, stare down at the holster.

Dry firing should encompass EVERYTHING.
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What often happens? People don't practice holstering safely? That not a "programmed to dry fire" problem. It's a LACK of programming something in dry-fire problem. It's also not a function of coming to a complete stop. You should be dry-firing re-holstering on the move if you are ever going to do it with live ammo.

This literally never happens from dry-firing. You been watching Mike Glover videos or something?
 
NKD said:
Have been to several types of matches that re-holstering on the clock is allowed, and even some where it has been required. 2gun/3gun mainly.

It's very dangerous, and should be avoided at most matches. BUT, in some it should be allowed. At the ones I have been to, they are competition or duty holsters, and the dangers are well described and brought up on stage walk-through. People that may not be comfortable with it are encouraged NOT to do it. Very common in 3gun. In 3gun there is always the option to put the gun in a bucket instead.

The one match I have been to where it was required on a stage to re-holster, it was also while you were sitting in a car with and required to re-holster and engage targets while exiting car with a sluing rifle! Very dangerous maneuver! But it is a match focused on police training, and the reality is that police often need to re-holster during very stressful and active situations and need to train for that under stress.

I personally set up my comp holsters and cant to avoid the muzzle ever pointing at me while holstered or holstering. I often shoot a single action race gun with a very short travel sub- 2lb trigger. I have had a gun go off in a holster, and had it been set-up like the majority I have seen, I would have shot my leg with a .40S&W major round. Bad day, indeed.
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You bring up great points, and this is often where 'competition' and 'operational' start to differ. A race gun is a universe apart from a M9 or SIG p226; even our 1911s, while really good triggers, weren't the same as competition-quality. That said, I have seen a round go off in a vehicle (humvee) when a Marine was reholstering. Very loud, and scary.

We trained a lot with transitions and holstering for the very reasons you mentioned: dangerous time of handling, and the stressful nature of the job.
 
NKD said:
What often happens? People don't practice holstering safely? That not a "programmed to dry fire" problem. It's a LACK of programming something in dry-fire problem. It's also not a function of coming to a complete stop. You should be dry-firing re-holstering on the move if you are ever going to do it with live ammo.

This literally never happens from dry-firing. You been watching Mike Glover videos or something?
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Yes, I agree. Semantics. I did not articulate. I have no idea who Mike Glover is.
 
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Chuckman said:
You bring up great points, and this is often where 'competition' and 'operational' start to differ. A race gun is a universe apart from a M9 or SIG p226; even our 1911s, while really good triggers, weren't the same as competition-quality. That said, I have seen a round go off in a vehicle (humvee) when a Marine was reholstering. Very loud, and scary.

We trained a lot with transitions and holstering for the very reasons you mentioned: dangerous time of handling, and the stressful nature of the job.
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Not a universe apart. Almost exactly like a 1911. SA with a thumb safety. Short light trigger.

I also shoot striker fired and DA/SA guns in the very same type of matches. And have shot DA/SA as well. The safety concerns are the same. Re-holstering is the same. Race guns just generally have a lighter trigger.
 
IPSC match 20+ years ago, dude shot himself in the leg. I wasnt in his squad. Operator types patched his leak and somebody drove him to hospital. Steel Challenge match I was at in the last 10 years, another dude was reholstering hot and BANG in the leg again. I wasnt in his squad. I guess somebody patched his leak, EMS was called and hauled him away. USPSA match in Anderson SC, RO match on Friday before everybody else started the match, Unload and Show Clear, POW. Open action detonation of round being extracted and ejected, 40 S&W. Maybe a Glock. Shrapnel wound to shooters arm. Required stitches. Remember what Q said, "It's not safe out here Picard".
 
NKD said:
Not a universe apart. Almost exactly like a 1911. SA with a thumb safety. Short light trigger.

I also shoot striker fired and DA/SA guns in the very same type of matches. And have shot DA/SA as well. The safety concerns are the same. Re-holstering is the same. Race guns just generally have a lighter trigger.
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It's a lot harder to have a ND with the 226 or M9 in DA. Just sooooo heavy. Safety concerns and training issues are the same. Competition triggers and service triggers are not even close.

Our 1911s had short triggers, definitely not light though. Lighter than M9/226 is SA for sure.
 
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I see a significant portion of the competitive field holstering their hot weapons with the muzzle pointed inwards at their hip. It is one of my pet peeves.

I always try to do little left lean and get my leg out of the way when holstering.
 
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I may look like an idiot, but I'm one of the guys that stares at my holster as the gun goes in. I'm also using my weak hand to ensure nothing's in the way in terms of clothing, gear, etc. I'd much rather take that extra 3-5 seconds than have an ND.
 
Tim said:
I may look like an idiot, but I'm one of the guys that stares at my holster as the gun goes in. I'm also using my weak hand to ensure nothing's in the way in terms of clothing, gear, etc. I'd much rather take that extra 3-5 seconds than have an ND.
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You do you. Do what you need to do to be safe. I have programmed myself to glance down at the holster; a break from how I was trained, and for the same reason.
 
Chuckman said:
It's a lot harder to have a ND with the 226 or M9 in DA. Just sooooo heavy. Safety concerns and training issues are the same. Competition triggers and service triggers are not even close.

Our 1911s had short triggers, definitely not light though. Lighter than M9/226 is SA for sure.
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Relevant part in bold. Competition can be done and IS done with any triggers. Have seen many 92's and 226's and 1911's and everything else at a variety of competitions. There is nothing secret/special/different about basic military firearms or their use. Not sure why you want to argue this point, or even what the point is.

If you haven't done any competitions, maybe you do not know what you do not know?
 
NKD said:
Relevant part in bold. Competition can be done and IS done with any triggers. Have seen many 92's and 226's and 1911's and everything else at a variety of competitions. There is nothing secret/special/different about basic military firearms or their use. Not sure why you want to argue this point, or even what the point is.

If you haven't done any competitions, maybe you do not know what you do not know?
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I am not arguing anything. You brought up race guns and sub-2# triggers. I was merely pointing out that perhaps lighter triggers decrease safety factor.

I have done competitions.
 
I do "the lean" every morning when I holster up. It's very easy to keep body parts out of the path of a potential ND. But I've seen guys at matches point the muzzle at their own kidneys trying to find the holster. That's gonna end really badly if it goes sideways even a little bit.
 
Pogue said:
Not being sarcastic, but how does that happen?
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Delayed ignition from a primer strike that did not immediately ignite the powder. That's why we're taught to keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction for 60 seconds in the event of a misfire.

I've personally experienced a delayed ignition in a rifle. Round went off around 10 seconds after the hammer dropped. Out of habit I kept the barrel pointed down range while I was counting down. Surprised the hell out of me when it discharged.
 
I really don‘t know anything, but it seems to me that training to improve and speed up your reactions and reflex’s is going to add an element of risk. So at some point sh*t is going to happen in some small percentage of people training and competing. Not avoidable with humans. Seems like risks were assessed, dealt with, lessons learned and nobody died thankfully.
 
CZfool68 said:
I really don‘t know anything, but it seems to me that training to improve and speed up your reactions and reflex’s is going to add an element of risk. So at some point sh*t is going to happen in some small percentage of people training and competing. Not avoidable with humans. Seems like risks were assessed, dealt with, lessons learned and nobody died thankfully.
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Winner winner
 
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