For those of you on church security teams

cubrock

cubrock

Swell guy
2A Bourbon Hound 2024
2A Bourbon Hound OG
Charter Life Member
Benefactor
Multi-Factor Enabled
Joined
Dec 18, 2016
Messages
10,104
Location
Hickory, NC
Rating - 100%
38   0   0
What handgun qualification standard, if any, does your church use for those on your security team? Our church is mulling this over.
 
I have talked to a guy at work before about this. He has a few members that actually belong on the police/ sheriff’s department and they do training with them. He was saying that they had a few hostage situation drills on site as well.
 
Our church has none. Being Retarded military I do what I can to remain some reasonable deterrent in the event of a bad day.

However, we are a very small, very rural country church that, on a good day, might get 100 members to our Sunday morning services.

I think this makes us at least, if not more, vulnerable to being targeted. Nobody would even hear the shooting from where we are located.

I always carry and have revised my seating in the congregation to allow the best visibility and least obstructed views of entrances.

I have attempted to get more involvement from the church leadership, but...

Hence, I do what I can!
 
We have a small church, too. Under 100 on any given Sunday. We have several gun guys there, but we want to have a defensible training standard for those officially on the team.
 
I would not put much faith in church security in general. Hopefully you have some congregants who have some training. If its just people with concealed carry classes that would be the absolute basics IMHO. I have personal experience of one such person who was a complete idiot and hurt someone very badly. It's the guys who profess skills that they do not have that scare me.
 
Last edited:
Our team meets quarterly for discussions, ideas and feed-back. We have firearm training at least once a year. The last training there were 14 team members and our female childeren's minister that is in the church office daily that pasted the BLET range qualification. There are plans to amp up our training for active shooter situations. We have a minimum caliber .380, which is frowned uponed, and no open carry or shoulder holsters. We all are also first aid/cpr certified. Our BIGGEST concern is the other church people that are carrying. We are also fortunate to have active and retired LEOs on the team.
 
Last edited:
My coworker also is in the country with small church, about a dozen members have concealed permit, as well as the minister and his wife.
He encourages all to get their permit, several members on the team are active and retired law enforcement. They rotate each week for the team.
They have large glass doors at the entrance and if they do not recognize you, you are greeted and welcomed by several members, not just one.
 
cubrock said:
What handgun qualification standard, if any, does your church use for those on your security team? Our church is mulling this over.
Click to expand...
We don’t, and may not, *officially* anyway, due to liability and church insurance issues.

But I have some specific thoughts on what I’d like to see happen with the concealed carriers at my church.

I’d like for them to actually know what their capabilities and limitations are. I’d also like for them to know about their own judgement in a defensive scenario. This to me is huge, and clearly the harder “skill” to assess in my humble opinion.

There are drills out there that will “exploit” a shooter’s weaknesses. In other words, let a shooter see for themselves the limits of their knowledge and capabilities as far as safety with a firearm, marksmanship, reaction time, effectiveness with their chosen platform/caliber/gear/ammo.

We have a fairly large, traditional sanctuary, and I sit in a back corner. There are nearly no clear shots in any direction. If someone decides to draw and discharge their weapon in that room (or anywhere else in the church) I’m almost more interested in them knowing when not to shoot, versus when to shoot.

Probably the most useful thing for me was an 8 hour class run by Ricky Harris made up of drills that demonstrated to most of us just how bad we suck. He didn’t have to tell us, in fact he’s the nicest guy in the world, but has plenty of real world experience as a retired SF team sergeant, weapons trainer, and current LEO. I went home after the class depressed for two weeks. Then I got busy, and improved where I could. I know my weaknesses and what I need to work on. Even two years later.

I want anyone else in my church to know the same thing and work on it.
 
Last edited:
PM me with your email and I'll send you ours.
We use the qual requirement to weed out the Walter Mittys and Deputy Dawgs. They hear we have a "requirement" and don't ask anymore questions about joining the team. I guarantee anyone on here could pass it. It's like everything else; I want to watch you shoot a basic requirement course so I can see how safe you are and where you're at currently with your skill level. If you're good with both, we can start on optional advanced drills and moving in a confined environment, as well as a lot of one-handed work. Fieldgrade makes great points above.

Also, it should be noted for the viewing audience; the point of the team is to 1. engage the threat in the parking lot or front lobby ( push the confrontation to the outer rings of coverage if possible), 2. recognize the issue once they've entered the church and get team members close to them ( either covertly so we can wrestle, stab, or make contact shots if necessary; or overtly where you sit next to them and make them uncomfortable, so they leave and go elsewhere to commit their deed). We've also had the opportunity to pray with and help several meet Jesus.

A uniformed officer in a marked unit will solve 99% percent of the crazies and child abduction issues a church faces.

I do a lot of this; and reiterate my availability to help any of your churches out there at zero cost.

It's not about guns, it's a ministry and risk mitigation tool for your church. You will also find you can involve your Pastors and staff if you learn to speak their language and recognize insurance requirements and restrictions. You should include medical folks and learn to leverage your congregation to collect "threat intelligence" for you ( ie the usual church gossip about everything), then you vet the info for reliability. Your Pastors will assist because everybody tells them everything about everybody.

Sorry for the long response !
 
Last edited:
xtp308 said:
I want to watch you shoot a basic requirement course so I can see how safe you are and where you're at currently with your skill level. If you're good with both, we can start on optional advanced drills and moving in a confined environment, as well as a lot of one-handed work.
Click to expand...
I'd like to hear more about this if you could PM me. Can this assessment be done indoors? Outdoors?
Thanks in advance.
 
Anybody who is interested in defending not just themselves but their flock ought to run the Wizard drill. It’s not an "end all be all", but in five shots you find out for yourself how much you might suck.

I’ve shot plenty of drills, and classifiers. It wasn’t until I ran the wizard from my preferred carry mode that I discovered more weaknesses I didn’t know I had.

(i.e. drawing from a pocket holster and inadvertently presenting a holstered gun to the target. When you only have 2.5 seconds you make potentially deadly (to you) mistakes you didn’t know you were going to make.
 
Last edited:
fieldgrade said:
Anybody who is interested in defending not just themselves but their flock ought to run the Wizard drill.
Click to expand...
fieldgrade said:
I’ve shot plenty of drills, and classifiers. It wasn’t until I ran the wizard from my preferred carry mode that I discovered more weaknesses I didn’t know I had.
Click to expand...
And That is the whole point...….
 
cubrock said:
What handgun qualification standard, if any, does your church use for those on your security team? Our church is mulling this over.
Click to expand...
We don't have a security policy or a carry policy. We will soon hire a GSO police officer to sit in his car in the parking lot. But we don't have an official policy, and that is on purpose.

Should the security team be armed? One question leads to another: Do we allow concealed carry in the service? That discussion would split the church. We have many altruistic young members who are pacifists. We also have many members who are in favor of an armed security team. They are all faithful children of God.

So, three years ago, I recommended to the executive pastor that we have no security policy or team, and that we have no policy on concealed carry. He agreed, and so it never comes up with the vestry or anyone else. Instead of a security team, we have a small group of watchers that walk around. When one finishes walking around, another leaves the service to walk around. When that person returns, another goes out. We have certain things that we look at, but we have no routes.

As for concealed carry, we leave it up to each individual to decide if they will carry in church, and expect them to follow the law, just as we do with many other things. They don't tell me or anyone else if they are carrying.

I'm in touch with other churches in our diocese, as well as a fellow at one church who advises others. Some have armed security, qualified trainers and paid up insurance. Others have something similar to what our church does. Insurance can be a big deal. @cubrock, is your plan to get things straight with the insurer?

BTW, there are lots of other issues with security, from digital to alarms and locks. We will soon have it all wrapped up, but with our farming operation, and our diverse collection of ministries, it is complex.
 
Last edited:
Ben Jefferson said:
Our church has none. Being Retarded military I do what I can to remain some reasonable deterrent in the event of a bad day.

However, we are a very small, very rural country church that, on a good day, might get 100 members to our Sunday morning services.

I think this makes us at least, if not more, vulnerable to being targeted. Nobody would even hear the shooting from where we are located.

I always carry and have revised my seating in the congregation to allow the best visibility and least obstructed views of entrances.

I have attempted to get more involvement from the church leadership, but...

Hence, I do what I can!
Click to expand...
I’m kinda the same way for my church although it’s larger. There are about 6-8 of us, but no real training. We are working on that! We sit within site of the interstate, with 4 ways in and out. A lot of nice cars parked there. I’ve told them, it’s just a matter of time! We’ve had some cars broken into and some with damage. We are trying to work something with the church insurance.
 
cubrock said:
What handgun qualification standard, if any, does your church use for those on your security team? Our church is mulling this over.
Click to expand...
I am not on the official 'safety team' but they know me and know I'm carrying. I'm in the choir loft or sound booth and have a decent view of what is going on.
It is a very carry friendly church, probably a dozen or so men and women carrying on any given Sunday.

Load'em cheap, stack'em deep.
 
MacEntyre said:
We don't have a security policy or a carry policy. We will soon hire a GSO police officer to sit in his car in the parking lot. But we don't have an official policy, and that is on purpose.

Should the security team be armed? One question leads to another: Do we allow concealed carry in the service? That discussion would split the church. We have many altruistic young members who are pacifists. We also have many members who are in favor of an armed security team. They are all faithful children of God.

So, three years ago, I recommended to the executive pastor that we have no security policy or team, and that we have no policy on concealed carry. He agreed, and so it never comes up with the vestry or anyone else. Instead of a security team, we have a small group of watchers that walk around. When one finishes walking around, another leaves the service to walk around. When that person returns, another goes out. We have certain things that we look at, but we have no routes.

As for concealed carry, we leave it up to each individual to decide if they will carry in church, and expect them to follow the law, just as we do with many other things. They don't tell me or anyone else if they are carrying.

I'm in touch with other churches in our diocese, as well as a fellow at one church who advises others. Some have armed security, qualified trainers and paid up insurance. Others have something similar to what our church does. Insurance can be a big deal. @cubrock, is your plan to get things straight with the insurer?

BTW, there are lots of other issues with security, from digital to alarms and locks. We will soon have it all wrapped up, but with our farming operation, and our diverse collection of ministries, it is complex.
Click to expand...


No insurance. We aren't necessarily doing anything formal, either, but we did want to have some minimal standards that everyone met. We have had concealed carriers for years, including the pastor. Now, we are doing some training together, mostly to expose our personal weak spots (as many have mentioned above). The last round was doing the FBI pistol qualification course, but that was pretty difficult for some folks with small concealed pistols. So, I wondered what others were doing and how we could learn from that.

When I say we have a small church, it is small. Some Sundays under 50 people. We have installed security cameras that go to monitors in the sound room and we have an electronic door lock on the front door so the sound guy can lock it down remotely, if need be. All other entrances to the church are locked during the service. We want to do what we can to be prepared, but we don't want to get into liability territory with a formal policy.
 
Make sure you have coverage of your nursery/child care area.

Most times it is on a different floor away from the sanctuary.

They need comms to others if need arise. Text messages work if your phone will alert you well enough.

Reason for the above. We had a visitor one day come in between Sunday School and Worship service. He comes in off the street. He's acting kinda hinkey. Moves around the building. We put "eyes" on him having folks watch him. When I see what he's doing I go grab a chair and take a seat right outside the door to the nursery. A lot of time there was only one adult lady with the kids. No way was I going to leave them alone with this guy prowling around. He finally moved on but you never know.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
 
cubrock said:
No insurance. We aren't necessarily doing anything formal, either, but we did want to have some minimal standards that everyone met. We have had concealed carriers for years, including the pastor. Now, we are doing some training together, mostly to expose our personal weak spots (as many have mentioned above). The last round was doing the FBI pistol qualification course, but that was pretty difficult for some folks with small concealed pistols. So, I wondered what others were doing and how we could learn from that.

When I say we have a small church, it is small. Some Sundays under 50 people. We have installed security cameras that go to monitors in the sound room and we have an electronic door lock on the front door so the sound guy can lock it down remotely, if need be. All other entrances to the church are locked during the service. We want to do what we can to be prepared, but we don't want to get into liability territory with a formal policy.
Click to expand...
If I get the opportunity to take some of my church friends to the range who carry and want to know their abilities I’d run these three drills initially to see what they need to do next.

5 shots - The Wizard. Hackathorn has a video
10 shots - The Test - Vickers and/or Hackathorn

Also have them shoot 8-10 rounds slow-fire at 20-25 yards. This is where they really find out where their groups are going.
 
Last edited:
J R Green said:
This^, I think having an official policy and training standard could open you up to liability. Things never go as you've trained for.
Click to expand...
That approach is a valid option and should be discussed with your Pastoral Staff after consulting with the insurance company.
 
Grits said:
Make sure you have coverage of your nursery/child care area.

Most times it is on a different floor away from the sanctuary.

They need comms to others if need arise. Text messages work if your phone will alert you well enough.

Reason for the above. We had a visitor one day come in between Sunday School and Worship service. He comes in off the street. He's acting kinda hinkey. Moves around the building. We put "eyes" on him having folks watch him. When I see what he's doing I go grab a chair and take a seat right outside the door to the nursery. A lot of time there was only one adult lady with the kids. No way was I going to leave them alone with this guy prowling around. He finally moved on but you never know.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
EXACTLY ! You let the guy know you were there and the nursery folks were probably comforted to know you were around.
 
Millie said:
I'd like to hear more about this if you could PM me. Can this assessment be done indoors? Outdoors?
Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like the Wizard already assessed you at Battery Oaks...

Just kidding !
Don’t feel bad or alone; he humbles us all.
 
Last edited:
DCGallim said:
I was told we have a “safety team”, something goes wonky with insurance when you call it security.


Don’t know if this was on purpose but don’t change it now.
Click to expand...

We chose to call our effort a Safety Team from Day 1 to avoid egos and misperceptions. We have a sec team and med team under the Safety Team umbrella.
Everybody thinks guns, but you’ll help twenty kids with cut feet and knees before you’ll see the first guy acting crazy.

Also, if you’ll tend to physical security stuff early (doors, locks, cameras, parking lot), you’ll save a lot of trouble later on. You’ll also train your congregation to feel safer coming to service because they SEE measures being taken and plans being made. You’ll also train your Pastoral Staff and Councilmembers to trust you by having plans, answers, and cost estimates ready before they ask the questions of “why” and “how much”.
 
Last edited:
xtp308 said:
Sounds to me like the Wizard already assessed you at Battery Oaks...
Click to expand...
Yeah, me and the Wiz are old pals. I'm slow. Like 20-25 seconds for the whole thing early in the year last year. But I did get all the shots. (Billy will let me know if I get any times wrong here.)

These days I can't get all the shots, but hey! I got faster for a single shot.....not sure if that's progress or not. lol.
 
cubrock said:
We want to do what we can to be prepared, but we don't want to get into liability territory with a formal policy.
Click to expand...

Our church security team just had a seminar on this topic conducted by the Catawba County Sheriff's Office and it was pointed out that a lawsuit would be the probable outcome in any case. Why does having a policy increase liability?
 
Matt.Cross said:
Our church security team just had a seminar on this topic conducted by the Catawba County Sheriff's Office and it was pointed out that a lawsuit would be the probable outcome in any case. Why does having a policy increase liability?
Click to expand...
Here’s an unofficial and purely speculative answer.

With no official policy, procedure, or recognized *security* team, if one person shoots another it’s treated as an individual defensive scenario, versus dragging the whole church into it.

Which is another good reason for any CCW permit holder to be covered by their own policy, i.e. CCW Safe, USCCA, etc.
 
Last edited:
Matt.Cross said:
Our church security team just had a seminar on this topic conducted by the Catawba County Sheriff's Office and it was pointed out that a lawsuit would be the probable outcome in any case. Why does having a policy increase liability?
Click to expand...
Having a policy means the Church enters into liability with the individual team member, versus having the team member hanging on their own if anything happens. See FGs comments above.
Bottom line: you’re getting sued either way.
 
Last edited:
Matt.Cross said:
Our church security team just had a seminar on this topic conducted by the Catawba County Sheriff's Office and it was pointed out that a lawsuit would be the probable outcome in any case. Why does having a policy increase liability?
Click to expand...
Having an official policy provides a list of things that may be done wrong. No policy = no policy violations.

If you have a dedicated security team does that mean you are forbidding other parishioners from carrying?
 
J R Green said:
If you have a dedicated security team does that mean you are forbidding other parishioners from carrying?
Click to expand...

We haven't posted gunbusters (yet), but effectively yes, it is asked of congregants to not carry into the sanctuary except for security team personnel.
 
Just a point of info here. We do not require team members to be armed, but it is recommended. We do require you be able legally to obtain a CCWand do a background check on all applicants.
Additionally, we had a problem with a wacko open carry person attending services, singing in the choir, working nursery, etc... with a G19 in a junk nylon holster flopping everywhere. The optics are not what any responsible gun owner wants to see, let alone the little old ladies in the church. The staff asked for our assistance, and we researched the matter. We kindly asked the person not to OC and they willingly obliged. After a lot of soul-searching, the church staff chose to post the building as a no OC zone, and left cc alone. They trusted us to explain the various laws, Constitutionality, and 2A attitudes of the community; and were able to make an educated compromise as a private property.

Your team should never set or enforce Church policy; no matter how much they may want you to. Advise them if they ask, be a resident expert, but policy needs to come from full-time Church staff.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom