Going to close down the Firearms Classifieds now?

[Me.]

People keep fretting over the “profit” thing as if that is core to the rule.

The rule is about “primarily” and the yardstick will be “quantity” and “frequency”.


This rule changes nothing.

 

[MacEntyre]

We need Hand-Wringing and Pearl-Clutching emojis!

 

[Jeppo]

We need Hand-Wringing and a Pearl-Clutching emojis!

 

[Get Off My Lawn]

View attachment 772114

She looks like she’s advertising an invitation

 

[MacEntyre]

View attachment 772114

Is there software that will convert that to an emoji?

 

[Schattenreiter]

What underwear?

TMI. Commando all you want, just don't tell us about and definitely no pictures.

 

[MacEntyre]

View attachment 772114

ONG! Is that @NCLivingBrit ???

 

[Schattenreiter]

The problem with all of this is that it won't be your definition of profit but theirs. And you will likely have to prove your numbers if it comes to that. If you get a chance because they don't do a no knock 6 AM SWAT team visit. It's just Yikes all over.

Unless the burden of proof has shifted, then it would be on them to prove your numbers. You know the whole innocent until proven guilty thing. (Yeah I know) But that is how it is spossed to work. How they gonna do that? Cause I'm gonna require cash and will give you a receipt showing you paid me $10 over what I paid.




Or we could really upset the apple cart and all get an FFl. Think of the headache that would create.

 

[Burt Gummer]

I get a chub making them pay for our debauchery

With YOUR tax money

 

[MacEntyre]

Or we could really upset the apple cart and all get an FFl. Think of the headache that would create.

They would just deny them all.

 

[Schattenreiter]

I actually made that for a joke except mine had a visible series of stick holes.

Made me feel fancy.

True story. We went to one of those restaurants that cooks in front of you. One of the women with us picked up the chopsticks and loudly said. "I can't use these things" The guy cooking never missed a beat. He reached over and grabbed them from her took his knife and sharpened the end, stabbed a piece of steak and handed them back to her.

They would just deny them all.

True.

 

[Diablos]

With YOUR tax money

ha, jokes on them i dont pay taxes


**knock knock knock*

hold on, there's some guys in suits at my front door, i'll be right back

 

[Stogies]

Unless the burden of proof has shifted, then it would be on them to prove your numbers. You know the whole innocent until proven guilty thing. (Yeah I know) But that is how it is spossed to work. How they gonna do that? Cause I'm gonna require cash and will give you a receipt showing you paid me $10 over what I paid.




Or we could really upset the apple cart and all get an FFl. Think of the headache that would create.

Again, they have already killed one guy over selling "too many guns". He didn't get a chance to prove or disprove anything.

 

[BlackGun]

More CFF members endless fear mongering.

 

[Windini]

Future my BST post will state:
All proceeds donated to the Georgel Charitable Foundation.

If you make the name of the Host App "Act True," I've got a digital dollar sitting around that might wander over that-a-way...

 

[ontheroad]

They don't care about if you earned any $$ and they don't care about bg checks. They sell this under the guise of "safety" and fearmonger gun owners with the threat of enforcement if a nebulous "profit" is made. Tell me this: If I do the transaction at an FFL (like they want), how would the AFT know how much money changed hands? They wouldn't. So they want something else from all this.

What they DO want is for every transaction to have a 4473 attached.

When all transactions go through FFLs, they get names, addresses and serial numbers. That's what they want and what they don't get in a private transaction.

 

[Average Joe]

They don't care about if you earned any $$ and they don't care about bg checks. They sell this under the guise of "safety" and fearmonger gun owners with the threat of enforcement if a nebulous "profit" is made. Tell me this: If I do the transaction at an FFL (like they want), how would the AFT know how much money changed hands? They wouldn't. So they want something else from all this.

What they DO want is for every transaction to have a 4473 attached.

When all transactions go through FFLs, they get names, addresses and serial numbers. That's what they want and what they don't get in a private transaction.

This is the heart of the issue.

 

[NCLivingBrit]

TMI. Commando all you want, just don't tell us about and definitely no pictures.

Video it is then.

 

[concepthomes2]

Best way to invalidate this is *if* you ever get kidnapped & interrogated asked by the AFT about profit, then both parties just say the amount was $1.00

Heck, society gifts land to each other for $1.00 just to fulfill or avoid little legal technicalities.

 

[GymB]

Unless the burden of proof has shifted, then it would be on them to prove your numbers. You know the whole innocent until proven guilty thing. (Yeah I know) But that is how it is spossed to work. How they gonna do that? Cause I'm gonna require cash and will give you a receipt showing you paid me $10 over what I paid.

This is at the heart of what they are trying to accomplish. They want to be able to tell a judge “under the rule there is a presumption that they are a dealer because they did this and that, the burden is now on them to prove that they qualify for one of the exceptions we put in the rule.” I hope that some judges won’t buy into that because it’s wrong and because the rule is pretty arbitrary, but in general judges have accepted that the agency is expert at interpreting the law, so yeah the burden is now on you. ATF will likely settle with you for an agreement not to do something they don’t like assuming that they don’t have other charges.

Will this happen to a guy selling a few guns a year, or even a month, through the forum? Unlikely in my estimation. Will it happen to the guy that claims to collect 50 nib glock 17’s and then sells them, yeah probably. When they find that guy they’ll pile on other charges, not having an FFL will be a small part of his problem.

 

[noway2]

I agree to a point. They’ll eventually use it to snare someone that they either want or want make an example of, and it won’t matter what the intent of the policy is.

Reminds me of when they supposedly went after that guy for buying oil filters claiming he was making illegal suppressors and it turns out he was a diesel mechanic doing oil changes.

 

[GymB]

Best way to invalidate this is *if* you ever get kidnapped & interrogated asked by the AFT about profit, then both parties just say the amount was $1.00

Heck, society gifts land to each other for $1.00 just to fulfill or avoid little legal technicalities.

No, lying to federal law enforcement isn’t going to help, in part because one person will eventually tell the truth. Besides, profit really isn’t that important in this analysis.

IMO, the best solution generally is for folks to stop acting like they are in the business. Frankly, IMO, the forum owners should consider if anyone asking for a BOS should be required to be a vendor. Folks can sell privately or through an FFl as they may prefer, but we shouldn’t enable them to fall into this legal trap; it’s a disservice to the membership.

 

[Tim]

but in general judges have accepted that the agency is expert at interpreting the law,

So, if Chevron is overturned, does this go away?

 

[Average Joe]

So, if Chevron is overturned, does this go away?

In theory yes, in practice, and no, the judge weighting the testimony to what the expert said, nope. I do hope it goes away and truly goes away! Experts don’t know everything about a specific topic. If so, doctors would never kill anyone by malpractice.

Edited to correct auto-cor..wrong

 

[Chuckman]

They can't shut down the classifieds! How else am I going to know that they 'know what they got'? How can I see if they are willing to entertain lowball offers?

 

[rdinatal]

This is at the heart of what they are trying to accomplish. They want to be able to tell a judge “under the rule there is a presumption that they are a dealer because they did this and that, the burden is now on them to prove that they qualify for one of the exceptions we put in the rule.”

This is exactly why most laws are written as:
Everything is illegal; Except for...

 

[GymB]

So, if Chevron is overturned, does this go away?

No. As I understand, overturning Chevron will allow the defense to challenge the presumption that the agency is the unquestionable expert on the subject and remove the requirement that the judge defer to their expertise. It will help to level the playing field, require that the agency better support it’s interpretation of statute and allow a challenge to their interpretation, but it doesn’t mean that judges won’t side with the agency most of the time.

 

[DaveInCLT]

Is there software that will convert that to an emoji?

 

[Schattenreiter]

They can't shut down the classifieds! How else am I going to know that they 'know what they got'? How can I see if they are willing to entertain lowball offers?

More importantly will you know if you are close enuff or if you just wish you were.

 

[Me.]

I’d like to see the CFF policy changed to allow you to edit your BST thread to remove the price after the item is sold.

Better yet, every thread marked “sold” automatically gets deleted and a backend job scrubs it and pics from the database.


This forum is full to the brim of guys who don’t want to be in a database, yet you can see every gun sale or purchase I’ve made right here, especially if we leave each other feedback.

 

[GymB]

I’d like to see the CFF policy changed to allow you to edit your BST thread to remove the price after the item is sold.

Better yet, every thread marked “sold” automatically gets deleted and a backend job scrubs it and pics from the database.


This forum is full to the brim of guys who don’t want to be in a database, yet you can see every gun sale or purchase I’ve made right here, especially if we leave each other feedback.

The paranoid side of me believes ATF already scrapes this info from every forum in the country.
Deleting it and related feedback here won’t/can’t change that.

 

[B00ger]

At one point I realized that “If they want me, they will come up with a reason” so I’ve stopped chasing rabbits and concentrate on just enjoying life.

If some fedboi wants to bust me for something he can, and when he goes back to the office and high fives his homies he can be proud he took another working father of 4 who has never harmed anyone (other than their feelings) off the streets. That’s on him.