How 9mm Parabellum Became the World Standard

Amp Mangum

Amp Mangum

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Easy to shoot, cheaper to shoot, more capacity and with the right projectile, an effective self defense round:
 
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I like Mas...I have spoken with him and he was kind enough to put an article about me and my guns in two issues of Combat Handguns....all that say.......I do wish he'd take that "possum" offa his head!!!

Did Bill say...Placement and Penetration was Most Important????
Where have I heard that for the last 20 years???????
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
I like Mas...I have spoken with him and he was kind enough to put an article about me and my guns in two issues of Combat Handguns....all that say.......I do wish he'd take that "possum" offa his head!!!

Did Bill say...Placement and Penetration was Most Important????
Where have I heard that for the last 20 years???????
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Mas and his book "In the Gravest Extreme" was an early influence on me and changed my perspective on defensive shooting forever. He was always the renegade and thought outside the box, challenging accepted norms.
 
...tedious to listen to him, though.

I heard that Twenty One 9mm handguns are sold for every single handgun sold that is Not 9mm... and that more 9mm ammo is sold than all other centerfire handgun ammo combined.
 
I never really liked a 9, the only reason I have one is because in shtf scenario ammo is more available. I believe with my limited skills and training (with a 40sw) is a better choice for me, not everyone but me.
I shoot 10mm so the 40sw is better choice because of the shared components (bullets and powder). Plus I’m a firm believer in heavy and slow bullets, but that just my opinion and opinions are like elbows everyone has one....
 
georgel said:
He was always the renegade and thought outside the box, challenging accepted norms.
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George, I recently saw a perfect presentation by Mas on the "grip" for handguns. He said after decades now of thumbs forward, in the competition manner, he has come to the thumb over thumb grip.
He said ...grip anything with your hand with your thumb out. Now grip it with your thumb down. You will see a great difference in pressure applied. Now using your support hand over your strong hand do the same thing.
For years here I told folks to ball up their fist as tight as possible and then take their other hand and grab that fist with thumb over thumb. No tighter grip can be had by a Human Bean.
Mas has always been kind to me and Thelbert Almond. The two articles he published about us and our guns kept us covered up in work or years.
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
George, I recently saw a perfect presentation by Mas on the "grip" for handguns. He said after decades now of thumbs forward, in the competition manner, he has come to the thumb over thumb grip.
He said ...grip anything with your hand with your thumb out. Now grip it with your thumb down. You will see a great difference in pressure applied. Now using your support hand over your strong hand do the same thing.
For years here I told folks to ball up their fist as tight as possible and then take their other hand and grab that fist with thumb over thumb. No tighter grip can be had by a Human Bean.
Mas has always been kind to me and Thelbert Almond. The two articles he published about us and our guns kept us covered up in work or years.
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Hmm... Have to look into that. I seem to remember him teaching that for revolver shooting. For autos, I've had a time transitioning from a high thumb target style, like Col. Askins to a more combat style. And they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Depends on the dog.
I remember the early days, pre- IDPA, when Mas was invited to some sort of Hogan's Alley challenge, he, to the chagrin of everyone, walked behind the props and shot the bad guys from behind. His reasoning was, if he knew bad guys were waiting to ambush him, why would he walk down that street?
There used to be an invitation only exercise called the NTI challenge that I always wanted to attend. They would put you in no win type scenarios to see what you could come up. Some of them did not involve a gun.
 
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georgel said:
They would put you in no win type scenarios to see what you could come up. Some of them did not involve a gun.
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Mas Was in one of these and when he ran out of ammo he dropped his gun and before the gun hit the ground he had cut the cardboard target in half with a Spiderco knife....Be Aware-Have A Plan.......
 
THE PUNISHER said:
I never really liked a 9, the only reason I have one is because in shtf scenario ammo is more available. I believe with my limited skills and training (with a 40sw) is a better choice for me, not everyone but me.
I shoot 10mm so the 40sw is better choice because of the shared components (bullets and powder). Plus I’m a firm believer in heavy and slow bullets, but that just my opinion and opinions are like elbows everyone has one....
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What about the 147 gr 9mm
 
Have gun-will travel said:
That's what my dept issues so does Durham pd. They shoot better and weigh 32 grains more than 115 gr.
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This is interesting...
I can personally and professionally attest that I would get SIGNIFICANLTY better results from 175Gr BTHP Sierra Matchkings than the same in 168 Gr...
Performance and accuracy were much better, so I would like to see data on the 147 Rangers...
Industry subsonic standard for 9mm is 147, so its that, but hopped up tp +p ???
 
9mm is a wonderful caliber for the ladies and boys that havnt yet achieved manhood.....and looking out at the snowflake generation, there's a LOT of ladies and lifelong boys! No wonder its a world favorite!

:)
 
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Spartan01 said:
This is interesting...
I can personally and professionally attest that I would get SIGNIFICANLTY better results from 175Gr BTHP Sierra Matchkings than the same in 168 Gr...
Performance and accuracy were much better, so I would like to see data on the 147 Rangers...
Industry subsonic standard for 9mm is 147, so its that, but hopped up tp +p ???
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995 fps muzzle velocity and 317 fpe at the muzzle.
 
Murtaugh said:
Do you guys have any way to accurately determine the psi on that load?
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Over $25,000 worth of equipment.

Also, go the Cartridges Of The World book. We are mentioned in the Preface of the book and then on 9 more pages for our work.

Then Google B&M Rifles......Our Loads Are Safe.....
 
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Spartan01 said:
The 147 Rangers have a muzzle velocity of 995 FPS ?!?!?!
That is subsonic....
Are you sure?
I am positive the Rangers are basically Black Talon/XST rounds and are +p which would push them pretty fast...
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roughly 1120 and under is subsonic. 995 could be considered "+p" for 147 9mm as I think average 147s go a bit slower.
 
Sharps40 said:
9mm is a wonderful caliber for the ladies and boys that havnt yet achieved manhood.....and looking out at the snowflake generation, there's a LOT of ladies and lifelong boys! No wonder its a world favorite!

:)
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There's a lot more to it than you seem to think. Before covid and Obiden 9 mm was half the price of 45 acp. . I personally had 14,1911's and 2 45 caliber Glocks. Plus 6 ,41 magnums and 9 model 29's Smiths and 5, 45 colt revolvers. But as I said before age and Arthur is kicking my but. I still love to shoot my big bore guns but the pain in my joints is a bitch.So if you want to call us Old guys snowflakes well be my guest. I still like my 44 mag loads of 22 grains of 2400 over240 grain hard cast Keith style bullets . Plus I like shooting the gun and caliber that I carry on duty.
 
Spartan01 said:
The 147 Rangers have a muzzle velocity of 995 FPS ?!?!?!
That is subsonic....
Are you sure?
I am positive the Rangers are basically Black Talon/XST rounds and are +p which would push them pretty fast...
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If I'm lying then so is Winchester's website.That info came from there. They did make some +P law enforcement ammo at one time
 
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Have gun-will travel said:
If I'm lying then so is Winchester's website.That info came from there. They did make some +P law enforcement ammo at one time
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WOW!
You are right!

9mm Luger
147 Grain
Ranger T-Series
50
RA9T

990
320
9mm Luger +P
124 Grain
Ranger T-Series
50
RA9124TP

1180
383
9mm Luger +P+
127 Grain
Ranger T-Series
50
RA9TA

1250
441
 
Have gun-will travel said:
There's a lot more to it than you seem to think. Before covid and Obiden 9 mm was half the price of 45 acp. . I personally had 14,1911's and 2 45 caliber Glocks. Plus 6 ,41 magnums and 9 model 29's Smiths and 5, 45 colt revolvers. But as I said before age and Arthur is kicking my but. I still love to shoot my big bore guns but the pain in my joints is a bitch.So if you want to call us Old guys snowflakes well be my guest. I still like my 44 mag loads of 22 grains of 2400 over240 grain hard cast Keith style bullets . Plus I like shooting the gun and caliber that I carry on duty.
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You are way too sensitive and a bit quick to bost. The post was a silly. Hence the smiley face MOJO thingy. Stay calm. No one here doubts the veracity of you old guys wrists.
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
Over $25,000 worth of equipment.

Also, go the Cartridges Of The World book. We are mentioned in the Preface of the book and then on 9 more pages for our work.

Then Google B&M Rifles......Our Loads Are Safe.....
Click to expand...
Some loads we’ve put together like the 230gr wadcutter for the 38 special running close to 1000fps would probably be over recommended pressure, but it won’t blow up a gun, even a J frame and it’s a defense load, not a target load you are gonna shoot every day. I’d be damn glad to have that pressure if I needed to shoot through a hoodie covered by a jacket.
 
The 3N38 loads (referenced as 147 gr. @ 1,200 FPS) were actually removed from the V-V load data a few months ago. Charlie from Gordon's Reloading Tool worked me to determine that the 6.9 gr. 3N38 load is around 39.5K PSI.
 
Also, my LabRadar registers these loads as ~1080 FPS, not 1200 FPS (from a 4.25" barrel). I'm not the only one to have below book (well, old book) velocities with the max load.
 
Etruett said:
Some loads we’ve put together like the 230gr wadcutter for the 38 special running close to 1000fps would probably be over recommended pressure, but it won’t blow up a gun, even a J frame and it’s a defense load, not a target load you are gonna shoot every day. I’d be damn glad to have that pressure if I needed to shoot through a hoodie covered by a jacket.
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I believe with all my soul that these 230 Grain Full Wad Cutters doing over 800 FPS are the Best Ammo Available for any .38 special for defense.

The mass and velocity of .45 230 ball. And this out of a 3 inch S&W.
 
Gaston said:
The 3N38 loads (referenced as 147 gr. @ 1,200 FPS) were actually removed from the V-V load data a few months ago. Charlie from Gordon's Reloading Tool worked me to determine that the 6.9 gr. 3N38 load is around 39.5K PSI.
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This is helpful to get me started, thanks much!! I figured I would play around and see how it did as a 9mm major load. I only need 1150 fps.
 
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