I wanna play..

HawgBonz

HawgBonz

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Disclaimer: I may use wrong words or words wrongly. I'm learnin'. šŸ¤”

Been gettin the itch to play with some comms. Really just for somethin to mess with, but such things might can be useful. I have no assumptions outside of thinking this is prolly do-able. Haven't really messed with anything besides CB at the hunt club since being a 31M10 in the military. None of which has really carried over. But I'm signed up for ham classes starting next month. @Mrs Hawgbonz is already a ham. I know I could prolly just study the test questions but I want to take the classes. Immersion helps me understand things. Still not so sure ham is what I need but kinda seems like. I've got time and resources. If they're willing to share, I'll listen. That said, I currently have zero interest in talking to peeps all over the world. Pretty much concerned with just those in my regional AO and immediate group for now, at least.

The situation available for me to play with:
My residence is a rural 7 acres on a decent hilltop (~690'). No HOA or any other impediments to doing pretty much as I please concerning things pointing skyward.
My "playground" is ~45 miles away and has several nice hilltops on it aligned mostly N/S with home being in a NNW direction. One hilltop (~470') of which may well be able to overlook the main Southside bots of the playground which is <1.5 miles at the furthest point. The entire place is ~5 miles across N to S with a ~515' hilltop in the middle. Although that may effect coverage in the Southside bots that are, IMO, very important. No options for grid power at the playground.

Questions:
Can a reasonably affordable system be assembled where HT(s) can communicate with a temporary, portable, non-public, personally owned "repeater" or some such on top of one of the hills that in turn can reach back ~45 miles to the house? The "repeater" would need to be powered via solar/battery/inverter type of setup. I'm generally down there for a few days at a time and it could be somethin fun to play with as long as it doesn't get too far out in the weeds nor overly deep in the pocket.
Izzit possible to have an omni-to-directional type "repeater" or relay setup that would cover the concerned local area and mebbe use the directional to "phone home"?

I currently only have a lil assortment of Boofengs (ala NotaRubicon) to piddle with just until I can figure out what my "big boy radios" may need to be. Relax, no xmit. Just tryin to see if I could hear anything. They've been setup with CHIRP to what local info I could find that was publicly available. Took one with me to the VA in Salisbury yesterday with scan going and got excited when I actually briefly heard talking a coupla times. šŸ˜ šŸ¤£ For the most part it was just static and series of R2D2 type noises I assumed to be digital signal beyond the Boofeng's capability. But I dunno.

Anyways, while I'm lookin into this it would help to mebbe get a clue as to what kindof gear to start sniffin around about that could get this done.
Constructive input would be appreciated. šŸ¤ 

radio-path-study.jpeg3DCampView.jpg
 
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If ~5W will do what you need there is a "repeater" cable that connects between two cheap UV-5Rs. I think it's around 15 bucks. For another $10 you could get a pair of "battery eliminators" to plug into your solar 12v system. Total cost for this barebones system would be under $75. Probably closer to $125 when you add in a weatherproof enclosure and some coax extensions to put the antennas on the outside of the enclosure to keep the radios dry.

I've been kicking around this idea in my head for a few months now. Only thing stopping me is any practical application - for me anyway.

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There are probably some FCC regs that would put a damper on this plan, but I'm usually the last guy to go see what laws I'd be breaking if I did something.
 
TL;DR

If you are planning a private system of sorts, use digital/analog radios. Their simplex range is superior in digital mode. You can also better control your interoperability with those invested in analog-only ammo can radios. Many Part 90 radios will also have strong digital encryption capabilities.

My advice is based on not giving a crap about the FCC ;) You still need to understand your radios. You should license so others will mentor you and you can openly practice. You might also find it to be a fun hobby. Communication independence is very comforting.
 
I would plan on some cables to allow some separation of the antennas; mount your enclosure on a pole at the top of the leftmost ridge in your path analysis. Mount the antennas a little more than 6 ft vertical separation. Obviously higher is better.
 
HawgBonz said:
Can a reasonably affordable system be assembled where HT(s) can communicate with a portable, non-public, personally owned "repeater" or some such on top of one of the hills that in turn can reach back ~45 miles to the house?
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Yes, you can run a repeater. There are what are called uncoordinated and coordinated repeaters. A coordinated repeater means that you get allocated a frequency (pair as xmit and recv are offset) and it will in part be based upon your operational footprint and chosen so that you don't interfere with other coordinated repeaters. In this region, the organization that performs this regulatory function is called SERA. If you run an uncoordinated one, the onus of responsibility to NOT interfere with other traffic will be on YOU. (This was one of the questions that was on my ham test*).

Chances are, if you want anything with decent range and power, you will want to go the ham route. As @htperry said, this is a great way to learn and practice. What you will learn by playing within the rules will serve you greatly if the situation devolves to where you need or want to play outside of the rules. If learning to effectively operate a radio were something you could do in a day, ham radio wouldn't be any fun. Also, putting a Chinese HT in your go bag, and forgetting about it isn't going to do you much good.

* On an unrelated side note, when you take your test, it gets signed by three VEs who certify you passed. When I took my test, I was moderately surprise that one of my VEs was a woman, KW4UD, and I was even more surprised at how many women are involved in ham radio given that it is such a geeky hobby. I saw in an email announcement that she died on Monday. Come to think of it, there have been several hams that I have known who have died since I got my ticket in 2016. My wife has her ticket but is very inactive and microphone adverse.
 
htperry said:
TL;DR
Click to expand...
License in the works already.
Reader's Digest version- Want communication via some sortof personally owned/controlled gear from A to B with a span of <50 miles that can reach down in the bots for HTs. Been gettin an inkling that digital will be the path. Details in pics and the TL part.
Car0linab0y said:
I would plan on some cables to allow some separation of the antennas; mount your enclosure on a pole at the top of the leftmost ridge in your path analysis. Mount the antennas a little more than 6 ft vertical separation. Obviously higher is better.
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If it matters the higher leftmost point in the path analysis is home where there are multiple sources of power. Looks like I'd need to get mebbe ~50' up if I'm reading things right. There's also currently plenty of tall trees on the home site to experiment with if that's GTG for figgerin things out. Could prolly string up a tree at the camp site if needed. There's 100' difference in the top and "down in camp". But I'd hafta put eyes on that exact site next week when I'm there. I hardly go up top cause there's nothin up there but a buncha river rocks scraped off the bottom of the last glacier that slid thru and I've already scoured it for Paleo.

@Les White - I'll look into that. I'm kinda thinkin I may be upping my game from all analog.
But then again somethin like that may be fine for muh completely unserious usage.

@noway2 - Thanks for the info. Is that something reasonably affordable? i.e. 100s instead of 1000s of dollars?
 
HawgBonz said:
@noway2 - Thanks for the info. Is that something reasonably affordable? i.e. 100s instead of 1000s of dollars?
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Honestly, I do not know. I do know that Chatham county borrowed at least one repeater from OCRA (Orange county, W4UNC) and put it up near Siler City on a county tower (back to what @georgel said about deal with the devil). They did get coordination through SERA but I never heard about cost, if there was one.
 
Check out the gmrs service also. Most of the benefits of uhf ham but no test. $35 bucks buys you a callsign.

Just another option.
 
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JW1987 said:
Check out the gmrs service also. Most of the benefits of uhf ham but no test. $35 bucks buys you a callsign.
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GMRS is indeed a good option for line-of-sight comms and even a repeater.

Many hams, like myself, have a GMRS license too. It is familiar to us as it uses the same type gear and 70cm band. I have GMRS for comm diversity and my wife can use it without getting a amateur license.

Don't ignore MURS, either. Buy Part 90 radios so you have many options. My HTs and mobile are all configured with Amateur, GMRS, FRS and MURS, with analog/digital and digital encryption capability. Part 90 radios are a bit more expensive but give you many more options/capabilities.

That said, 45 miles isn't going to happened as outlined in your original post. Anyone that tells you that you can use a series of Bofungus radios to get there just doesn't understand line-of-sight comms or the equipment necessary. There are many ways to accomplish what you want, evidenced by ham repeaters, but none are Bofungus-cheap.

One last thing - for an inexpensive HT that has open-source dev support, the $34 Quansheng UV-K6 (5, 5(8) and 6) is a Bofungus killer. It'll not replace my Part 90 radios, but has very manipulable guts. There are several GitHub projects offering extended capability firmware with RX(tx) from 18 Mhz to 1.3 Ghz. YouTube it.

This radio can be charged via USB-C, too. Amazon product ASIN B0CL939BVY
 
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I have the k5 and k6. One thing to remember on them is if you do the expanded tx firmware on them, it doesnā€™t instantly give you a shack in a box. The hardware in the radio are going to limit it to basically no power output and harmonics will be present. Still cool to have as a small receiver. But no one cares about that these days. I do like them a lot more than baofengs.
 
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JW1987 said:
I have the k5 and k6. One thing to remember on them is if you do the expanded tx firmware on them, it doesnā€™t instantly give you a shack in a box.
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This is why I wrote RX(tx) expansion, as the TX expansion really shouldn't be used. While it technically works on some bands, it is full of spurs and harmonics. The RX expansion and other features like the Spectrum display are cool. There is no $34 shack-in-a-box. I think the main selling point for me is the USB-C charging. The dev tinkering is just a bonus. I don't carry this radio - it's a toy, like the Bofungus.

I have the UV-K6. The receive on it is very good. Well-built and easy to program with CHIRP. So far, so good.
If my choices were limited to a $30 radio, I'd take the Quansheng hands down.

That said, I'd not want a $30 radio as my only radio and the Quansheg will not displace my Part 90 digital radios as EDC.
 
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Right, I just donā€™t want people not familiar with how radios work, to think this is the be all end all radio. Too many people donā€™t understand that itā€™s not ā€œbuy cheap radio and communicate with the worldā€. Far too many assume this is how radio works.
 
JW1987 said:
Check out the gmrs service also. Most of the benefits of uhf ham but no test. $35 bucks buys you a callsign.
Just another option.
Click to expand...
GMRS license applied and paid for.. No real reason not to..

htperry said:
Don't ignore MURS, either. Buy Part 90 radios so you have many options. My HTs and mobile are all configured with Amateur, GMRS, FRS and MURS, with analog/digital and digital encryption capability. Part 90 radios are a bit more expensive but give you many more options/capabilities.

That said, 45 miles isn't going to happened as outlined in your original post. Anyone that tells you that you can use a series of Bofungus radios to get there just doesn't understand line-of-sight comms or the equipment necessary. There are many ways to accomplish what you want, evidenced by ham repeaters, but none are Bofungus-cheap.
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I ain't ignoring nuttin' cause I don't have a clue what may end up being useful. ;)
Can I ask what part(s) of my "as outlined" scenario for the phoning home part chucks a wrench in the works?
The Baofeng's are just cheapies to piddle with till I can figure out what I may want. I don't wanna just jump into an mid-upper grade radio only to find out it's got some weird connection that that causes the PTT for headset comms to cost 3x more or some such other annoying detail that zaps the deal. Big displays are key so a blind old man can see it w/o readers. šŸ‘Øā€šŸ¦³šŸ˜®ā€šŸ’Ø
 
45 miles is a good haul for uhf/vhf. You would be best off to use a repeater for that distance. Simplex is going to be hard. What general area are you going to be talking to and what general area are you going to be in.
 
SERA membership is $35 a year, coordination doesnā€™t cost anything but you have to have all your info and documents in order, do your own research for the freq pairs your requesting and submit to them.

The problem with coordination at this point is lack of available pairs (this is especially an issue in the 2m band). Local to me, there are NO 2m pairs available for coordination.

2m coordination requires (among other considerations)100mi distances to closest repeater using the same pair.

70cm coordination requires (among other considerations) 50mi distance to closest repeater using the same pair.

IMO for your purposes youā€™d likely be better off exploring cross band repeat options with mobiles and antennas pulled up into tall trees.

I think youā€™d be disappointed at the expense vs performance of a solar powered portable repeater.

If you wanted a fixed site repeater I can give you an example of a commercial surplus/used equipment 70cm setup that you might see a club running and the ballpark costs of said equipment.

Kenwood tkr850 : $500-800
Tx/rx or similar 4 can duplexer: $300-600
1/2ā€-7/8ā€ hardline: free to $4-5 per foot plus connectors and polyphasers
Antenna db201/404/408/411/420 or similar: free to a couple thousand.
If you want a 100w or more pa add a few more hundred.
Tuning/programming: free to a couple hundred.
Power supply of your choice: free to a couple hundred or much as you want to spend on back up power methods.

Plus whatever site prep/tower/cabinet equipment is needed.

Good performing repeaters are not generally cheap or inexpensive.
 
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I was pointing him toward a public repeater, if it was not for sensitive communications. No need to go to the lengths of building a repeater site just to say ā€œhey Iā€™m heading homeā€ or the like.
 
You need, at the least:

1. proper RF equipment, coax and antenna(s), so many variables
2. reliable always-on power, AC/DC and RF - lots of it
3. AGL, Above Ground Level - antenna height is a huge factor in line-of-sight frequency comms

For example, the 444.450 repeater in Dallas is on a 2000' tower at 1500' AGL and covers 50+ miles, which is not a reliable range estimate due to so many variables in different directions and user equipment. So many terrain/atmospheric variables too.

Find a repeater in the area of your interest (GMRS or ham) and try fanning out in all directions, using it from the range you seek with the radio of your choice. That's the fastest test and understanding of the limits.

Start with your license so you can be taught, learn and test.
 
Yup, get the license and interact with a local club. Hopefully they will be inviting and help answer questions. If not we are all here.
 
Took the lil chicom radio out on my walks yesterday and today at the club for a listen.. Just put it in Freq mode and let it scan. Stopped it when I heard talking. Entered the info in the list for what it found. Then later just scanned the list. Fun stuff to piddle with. The audio voyeur. šŸ¤“ Took it to those hilltops in the PM and it picked up stuff from Lexington/Davidson County.
Found some first responders, a church organization group and a logging company.. Lotsa static.
Some of it was "organized static" so I wrote that off as digital signal beyond the chicom's capabilities.
Some of'em sounded like a diesel engine at various RPMs. Another common one was just a harsh-ish mid range tone.
Could pass for a "ray gun" sound effect. šŸ‘½šŸ¤– If it represents one of the digital signals that's prolly the one to get cause it was prolific. Or not.
On the way down from Mtn Top I stopped on the Helicopter Pad to get my bearings on the area. Spotted several towers including a T Mobile microwave and a coupla Verizons. That and a municipal water tower-r-two and least I have a general idea where I'm lookin, FWIW.
Got my GMRS call sign yesterday mornin before headin out.. Still don't have a GMRS radio. šŸ¤”
Had some nice walks. An enjoyable coupla days. šŸ¤ 
 
Good deal. Iā€™d just put the gmrs freqs in the there and use what you have. No one will know the difference.
 
HawgBonz said:
Got my GMRS call sign yesterday mornin before headin out.. Still don't have a GMRS radio. šŸ¤”
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If you have a ChiCom HT, Google or YT instructions to unlock it.
Then program in all the GMRS/FRS simplex frequencies (add NOAA too) and GMRS repeaters from https://mygmrs.com/
Be sure to understand and follow the RX/TX frequency offsets and tone squelch types.
Congrats on your license.
 
htperry said:
Be sure to understand and follow the RX/TX frequency offsets and tone squelch types.
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Either there's not a lot of traffic at all on the repeaters, both ham and GMRS, that I flashed in the radios or I'm goofin somethin up.
Some EMS and fire traffic from a coupla hits just lettin it frequency scan. But not much.
It's still fun piddlin with figuring things out.
The Quanshang UV-K6 got here just as I was leaving for camp Wednesday. Charged it and messed with it a bit while I was down there but it's a lil different from the Baofeng. Prolly gonna flash it with the same presets I've been using. Watch some UTube vids. RTFM. šŸ¤  šŸ¤–
 
HawgBonz said:
Either there's not a lot of traffic at all on the repeaters, both ham and GMRS, that I flashed in the radios or I'm goofin somethin up.
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You will find that outside of drive time (7am-9am) and (4pm-6pm) often times there isn't much or any traffic. Also, you will need to figure out which repeater is the current active one.
 
Unless like noway2 said, itā€™s drive time or a scheduled net then you will find it mostly dead. With cell phones and the internet that people use for daily communication, you will find that to be the case usually. There are a few of us I met through ham clubs and on the air that meet up at a certain time on a certain night on vhf ssb. In the 3 years of doing it every Thursday and Sunday night, I have ran across only a few people not in our little group, that joined in. We only have an interest in radio in common and come from all walks. We even advertise it on several ham club websites and are always inviting to anyone interested. Never grows. Now on hf there are people 24/7 365 to listen or talk to.
 
Find your local club(s) website(s), they will more than likely list, on a public page, the night and time of their weekly ragchews, ARES, etc. with the applicable rptr frequencies.
 
HawgBonz said:
Either there's not a lot of traffic at all on the repeaters, both ham and GMRS, that I flashed in the radios or I'm goofin somethin up.
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Do you hear the repeater kerchunk when you key?
Throw out your call sign on the GMRS a few times throughout the day.
Sometimes everyone is listening, hoping someone else is talking.
 
htperry said:
Do you hear the repeater kerchunk when you key?
Throw out your call sign on the GMRS a few times throughout the day.
Sometimes everyone is listening, hoping someone else is talking.
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I haven't keyed anything yet and not so sure I'd know a kerchunk if I heard it. šŸ¤“
I thought I had read that it was rude. But I guess if nobody is talkin anyways it prolly doesn't matter. šŸ¤ 
 
HawgBonz said:
I haven't keyed anything yet and not so sure I'd know a kerchunk if I heard it
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Key down, release and donā€™t say anything. If you get a ā€˜beepā€™ or a wake response, possibly Morse code, from the repeater then you know youā€™re xmitting on its receive frequency and xmitting the proper code to open the squelch.
 
JW1987 said:
Donā€™t worry bout kerchunking, just do it. You have to test somehow, if you hear something come back, say your callsign and ask if anyone is around.
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Bingo. Kerchunk just lets you know youā€™re properly configured. Also, itā€™s common for many radios to glitch and ā€œkerchunkā€ on power up beyond your control.
 
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