Indian River County deputy injured after Sig P320 fired on its own, department replaces all handguns

keepcalmandcarryon said:
Time to sit back, get popcorn and watch this thread explode…
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Just get the mods to merge it into the last thread on this; will save a ton of time with people not having to type back in the same unsubstantiated claims as last time.

Also, we know this wouldn't have happened if it was a 45ACP.
 
Ok... I have a question. Is the Sig XTEN, the new 10mm, basically a 320? Has this happenned with an XTEN? Could it?
 
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snap cap said:
Ok... I have a question. Is the Sig XTEN, the new 10mm, basically a 320? Has this happenned with an XTEN? Could it?
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In theory yes. But I do not know of any instances of people claiming their X-ten went off on its own. But I suspect that is just a numbers game. 9mm and .40 S&W are by far the largest sold of the P320 series.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
I believe it's operator error.
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Early on I was in the operator error camp. Now, I just don’t know. I can only say that I’ve never had any issues with my 320s, 365s, and X-ten. It bothers me that it cannot be replicated in testing. Or if it has been, Sig sure is keeping that little gold nugget really super duper, high top secret squirrel, if they tell you they will have to kill you secret.
 
Average Joe said:
Early on I was in the operator error camp. Now, I just don’t know. I can only say that I’ve never had any issues with my 320s, 365s, and X-ten. It bothers me that it cannot be replicated in testing. Or if it has been, Sig sure is keeping that little gold nugget really super duper, high top secret squirrel, if they tell you they will have to kill you secret.
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I’m a believer in the quality of police training is dropping like a stone, it’s the first thing that is cut with a tight budget. The quality of people becoming police officers is dropping just as fast.

i have never had a issue with my 365s, 320s, and Xten.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
I’m a believer in the quality of police training is dropping like a stone, it’s the first thing that is cut with a tight budget. The quality of people becoming police officers is dropping just as fast.

i have never had a issue with my 365s, 320s, and Xten.
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Your seeing the results of lowering the standards .
 
phideux said:
What do you guys mean?? Mine go off by themselves all the time, that's why I keep them in the safe. The whole inside of the safe is riddled with pockmarks. Sometimes it's hard to sleep around here, sounds like someone popping popcorn in the next room.
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grosse-pointe-blank-john-cusack.gif
 
phideux said:
What do you guys mean?? Mine go off by themselves all the time, that's why I keep them in the safe. The whole inside of the safe is riddled with pockmarks. Sometimes it's hard to sleep around here, sounds like someone popping popcorn in the next room.
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That's because you don't clean the 320 as often as it wants you too.
 
phideux said:
Every decade or so I'll hose one down with some Brake Kleen and blow it out with the compressor, a couple dabs of 50W Harley Oil, good for another decade.
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Calm down there Rockefeller! Solvent AND oil?
 
Derek8404 said:
True, but I’d bet the chances are about the same as with my Glocks, FNs or M&Ps.
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Truthfully yes most likely about the same, but I still like my dangling man bits attached to me so I don’t carry appendix for that reason but I dang sure wouldn’t with a P320.,In all seriousness I would likely say this is a holster/holstering issue just like the other one that “went off” in the PD. Maybe Sig needs to put a safe action trigger safety with a little blade in the middle to keep it from randomly blowing cops legs and balls off.
 
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Isn't the P320 firing pin under full spring tension when cocked, while Glock firing pins are not? So, an engagement failure in a P320 will result in a discharge, while in a Glock it would not?

I keep hearing operator error and while I believe this is the major cause of AD/ND's across the board, shouldn't the frequency of this particular event be evenly distributed across gun brands proportional to departmental selection? Is there a stat on that?
 
georgel said:
shouldn't the frequency of this particular event be evenly distributed across gun brands proportional to departmental selection?
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Seems as though the "frequency" of these events are mostly limited to a small subset of P320 users.

If it were a true design flaw/manufacturing defect, would we not hear of unintentional discharges from all facets of owners?

Besides the profession of the user, and the brand/model of the weapon, what is the common denominator? Why can't the reportedly spontaneous discharges be replicated?

Are they all using the same holster? Most use some type of Safariland retention system. That's where I'd start looking.

Are they all using the no manual safety variant?

I've carried my P320 IWB for two years now. Twisted, bent, laying on the ground, even dropped it once or twice. It's still never gone off without me pulling the trigger
 
The implications are that SOMETHING is going on, even if its because of a common operator error.
I can't help but wonder if the suspect guns are in some sort of indeterminate state or condition prior to discharge. Presumably, testing is done with guns that are clean, fully in battery, with good ammo, etc. What if the guns are not in "perfect" condition, lint build up, holstered incorrectly, etc.
Reminds me of the Serpa holster thing. Hard to prove something is wrong with it, but there's a high frequency of "failure". It works, until it doesnt.
 
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An older article, but still. I'm not sure the design of Glock's safety mechanisms have changed since then. The bold text we highlighted by me.



The District paid just over $1 million for 4,300 Glocks.
The decision was immediately controversial. Dissenting voices were beginning to be heard about "Glock Perfection." Perhaps the most significant criticism came from the FBI. The FBI Academy's firearms training unit tested various semiautomatic handguns and in a 1988 report gave the Glock low marks for safety. The report cited the weapon's "high potential for unintentional shots."
Unintentional shots would turn out to be a disquieting byproduct of Glock's unique design, according to many experts and to lawsuits filed against Glock in the last decade. Even though the Glock does not have an external manual safety, it incorporates three internal safeties intended to prevent the gun from discharging if dropped or jostled. A unique feature of the Glock is that a shooter disengages all three safeties at once by pulling the trigger.
"You can't blame the Glock for accidental discharges," said former police chief Isaac Fulwood Jr., who took over the force a few months after the District switched to Glocks. "The gun doesn't accidentally shoot. The officer has got to pull the trigger."
But officers found it difficult in tense street situations to keep their fingers off the triggers of their Glocks.
"When they feel in danger or they feel that somebody is in danger and they're really going to use that weapon, they'll put their finger on the trigger," Detective Ron Robertson, former head of the D.C. police union, said in a deposition in July. "It's kind of hard to keep the finger out of there."
 
dmarbell said:

An older article, but still. I'm not sure the design of Glock's safety mechanisms have changed since then. The bold text we highlighted by me.



The District paid just over $1 million for 4,300 Glocks.
The decision was immediately controversial. Dissenting voices were beginning to be heard about "Glock Perfection." Perhaps the most significant criticism came from the FBI. The FBI Academy's firearms training unit tested various semiautomatic handguns and in a 1988 report gave the Glock low marks for safety. The report cited the weapon's "high potential for unintentional shots."
Unintentional shots would turn out to be a disquieting byproduct of Glock's unique design, according to many experts and to lawsuits filed against Glock in the last decade. Even though the Glock does not have an external manual safety, it incorporates three internal safeties intended to prevent the gun from discharging if dropped or jostled. A unique feature of the Glock is that a shooter disengages all three safeties at once by pulling the trigger.
"You can't blame the Glock for accidental discharges," said former police chief Isaac Fulwood Jr., who took over the force a few months after the District switched to Glocks. "The gun doesn't accidentally shoot. The officer has got to pull the trigger."
But officers found it difficult in tense street situations to keep their fingers off the triggers of their Glocks.
"When they feel in danger or they feel that somebody is in danger and they're really going to use that weapon, they'll put their finger on the trigger," Detective Ron Robertson, former head of the D.C. police union, said in a deposition in July. "It's kind of hard to keep the finger out of there."
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Modern police/firearms training really stresses keeping finger off trigger until ready to fire.


Maybe with revolvers that was a training scar that officers could hang out on the trigger. I know in the service I was taught (correctly or incorrectly) that when drawing the beretta, to start pulling the trigger once at the low ready so the shot would break as the sights aligned on target.

I HATE Blackhawk serpa holsters with a passion. 90% of people that carry a gun for a living rarely practice and the design lends itself to NDs. Idk what the deal is with sig. Could be mechanical, user error or a combination of both.
 
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