It is good to see JRH getting recommended as a vendor. Good shop, good prices.
Intro To Night Vision
- Thread starter Studentofthegun
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And, Robert seems to be a pretty good guy. I took a class with him at his private training facility in south Georgia a couple weeks ago.
He is an effective, no BS instructor, well versed in NV employment/limitations/etc. and he has a reputation for standing by the products he sells.
I bought my binos from another vendor but would have absolutely no hesitation buying from him.
So ... spill it about the class! What did you like and why? What did you wish was different and why? What did it cost and did you feel it was worth it? Recommendations you have after the fact for anyone who might want to take it -- in terms of gear you wish you'd had, gear you had that you would change if you had a do-over, etc?
Your lessons learned from the class could help someone learn vicariously...
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Studentofthegun
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Yeah maybe someday this forum will be a net positive.
Yes, I guess I should capture my experience for others. First, the basics: Class was from 1:00 pm ‘til just after midnight at a private range near Douglas, GA, put on by Robert from JRH Enterprises. Cost was just $150 for the class but travel and lodging makes the real cost much more.
The class I attended, Midnight Rendezvous 1, is meant to be a basic intro class. There was nothing high-speed in this class - basic shooting positions (standing & kneeling) and some movement from 50 yards and in. There is a “progression” of four separate classes with presumably increasing skills covered.
The curriculum is based on shooting a range of skills during daylight and then repeating the same sequence of skills once the lights go out. I think this went well to keep bonehead moves to a minimum after dark - everyone was familiar enough with what was going on to prevent stupidity.
All the night shooting was done with aiming lasers, passive shooting (using a red dot without using any IR ) was not covered, or even mentioned, in this class.
The class was a great way to pop your cherry shooting under NV. Not too complex and done at a reasonable pace. It was a good opportunity to shake out new equipment and equipment configuration. Student NV was an even mix of PVS14s and Binos. Conditions were DARK, no moon coupled with a range literally in the middle of nowhere made for ideal conditions to see what the equipment would do.
My basic spec Binos performed well despite the somewhat worst-case conditions. It was dark but, we were on an open range. Inside the woodline would have been more difficult. As dark as it was, no IR illumination was needed for engaging from 50 yards in. There were two MAWLs in the class that were absolutely obnoxious when used at this distance. The anemic illuminator on my DBAL I2 was plenty but I didn’t use it for most of the shooting.
The end of the night exercise involved locating and engaging at longer distances (75-200 yards). This is where the need for a more powerful illuminator became clear. My I2 illuminator was ok at providing enough illumination to get my laser on target but locating targets under any level of concealment was near impossible. The MAWLs were still almost too bright in this scenario. The key takeaway was that a more powerful illuminator is required if your personal use scenario has you locating and positively identifying targets much past 50 yards.
My overall takeaways:
- Fitness trumps gear. 10 hours with a plate carrier (with one ceramic plate), loaded mags, slung rifle and a six-pound helmet after dark was just about enough for this almost sixty year old. I can remember a time when this wouldn’t have been too much of a problem but those days are long gone. Don’t think you can throw all your HUA gear on and operate like an operator for long unless your fitness level is up to the task. I guess this applies night or day.
- Basic gear is just fine, depending on your personal use scenario. For self/home defense out to about 50 yards I think a basic PVS14/Aurora and a Tor Mini would be adequate. If you’re hunting or engaging bad guys past 50 you may have to upgrade your gear. But, I think the basics will take most of us much farther than we think it will. NV stuff is all stupid expensive and my personal belief is that a lot of money gets spent on upgrading gear that would have otherwise worked fine.
- Learn to operate blind. NV does absolutely no good helping you manipulate your weapon or find/adjust/employ your stuff. Loading, unloading, clearing malfunctions, locking your bolt back, tactical reloads, grabbing a candy bar from a pouch all have to be done like a blind man. Practicing all this stuff in your blacked out garage, without NV, is critical to operating at night (with side benefits of helping you during the day).
I have pretty basic gear and felt I was as capable as anyone. Suppressed SBR, DBAL I2 and a set of BNVD-SGs on a bump helmet was perfect for this training event. I haven’t considered changing anything from my setup as a result of the class.
Bottom line, I guess, is that if you’ve invested a significant amount of money in all this NV stuff you should probably take some type of structured training to shake out your gear and gain some experience using it under some level of stress. This is an ideal, one-night class that allows you to do all that (if you can justify the expense). I’m sure many “trainers” would travel here to do a class if we had enough interested participants and someone has access to a range we could shoot on until well after dark.
Just my thoughts. Questions welcome...
ETA: I did invest in a set of 4D pads for my bump helmet before the class. The stock pads that come with an Opscore helmet caused hot spots and pressure points after an hour or so of use and were getting pretty unbearable by the two hour mark. The expensive (~$100) 4D pads are highly reviewed and glowingly recommended by many with experience. Well, I’m here to tell you, they’re worth it. My six pound helmet was on for a little over five hours without taking it off and it was comfortable the whole time.
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For many topics it is always has been, but as relates to 2a and elimination of governmnet infringements on rights thereof, which is what my earlier comments were about, I haven’t changed my opinion. As for picking level-headed staff members, the forum owners do a good job, but there are exceptions.
Apologies for posting in your thread, I will leave it now.
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Studentofthegun
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You can post wherever you like. You can express whatever opinions you like as well within the confines of the forum rules.
You have been challenged to join the ranks and show us the proper path forward, but you never responded.
I'll continue to express my opinion that this forum is a net positive as well.
The beauty of the forum is that you can take from it what you like. And leave what you don't like. Just because I'm staff doesn't mean I'm not allowed the same level of privilege you enjoy.
This thread is a prime example of the effort that some people are willing to put forth in order to make this place what it is. A lot of effort.
Have a nice day.
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Studentofthegun
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Oh...and don't fuss with the Norotos Rhino mount. Just save yourself the aggravation and get a really nice mount like a Wilcox. Then get the DDA mount instead of a J-Arm.
Ideally you want the monocle to not jump around all over the place. I had a rhino mount, jumped on @thrillhill's 4 wheeler, and rode around in the dark. It was awesome.
But I quickly realize that a cheap mount is...cheap. I know the military uses the Rhinos but we're older established people with disposable income. It's worth it to get a mount that is more stable. The Rhino mount wobbled all over the place no matter what I tried. No matter what J-Arm I put on it. Used elastic bands and everything else my military buddies told me to try, but ultimately the solution was to replace that whole mounting assembly and J-Arm for something else.
Edited to add:
My favorite mount is the Wilcox G22 because I wear glasses. It's this one. Also, Benny at Kosher Surplus is good to go. Ordered all sorts of things from him.
Custom Night Vision | Military-Grade Night Vision for Sale
We carry a variety of military-grade night vision image intensifier tubes, housings and accessories. Find the night vision products you're looking for today.
www.koshersurplus.com
The G22 has a longer arm and is better if you wear glasses. The G24 is fine for most people.
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The G24 is on sale. https://www.koshersurplus.com/product/wilcox-g24-breakaway-nightvision-mount/
The DDA mount is this one. Replaces a J-Arm. If you're just hell bent on having a J-Arm I got a brand new Wilcox one I'll sell you that has the on/off switch on it. But I'd get the DDA, seriously.
Norotos Dual Dovetail Adapter PVS-14
Dual Dovetail Interface Arm for PVS-14 w True Horizontal Adjustment
tnvc.com
I don't know why the heck Benny doesn't sell the Norotos DDA mount. Weird.
Ok, one last edit:
This is the best Norotos mount imho. https://ownthenight.com/component/h...er-helmet-mount-1920010/related_product-14666
Own the Night is much less expensive on this item than TNVC and others. Have to shop around a bit. Own the Night is also good to go. So is TNVC, of course. They are in California but somehow managed to get things to me faster than any other company I order NV things from.
(Even though I will take you to the mat over your opinion of the forum, it doesn't mean I still won't help you.)
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I read somewhere (probably arfcom) that all the new G24 mounts are coming with the longer adjustment rail (like the G22).
Also, yes, Own The Night is good to go, I’ve bought from them. I suggest ordering over the phone and talking with the owner (who answers the phones). You might get a slightly better price.
Also, yes, Own The Night is good to go, I’ve bought from them. I suggest ordering over the phone and talking with the owner (who answers the phones). You might get a slightly better price.
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Studentofthegun
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I read that too but couldn't remember where. The 2018 models were on sale for $320 from Kosher recently, but are now out of stock. That was a smoking deal on the G24, even if it was the old style.
Haven't tried to get the best price over the phone with Own the Night. Good info!
I think the only difference between 2018 and 2021 versions is the length of the rail. I’d have probably ponied up $320 for one, good thing they’re outta stock : )
THANK YOU for sharing your experience; that was an awesome write-up! Still no plate carrier or the like, here; that's in next year's budget (and I'm already queuing up my selections). Your post just convinced me to consider weight a higher priority than cost with every selection. I know ounces add up to pounds, but your anecdote about wearing those pounds for half a day straight really crystalized the need to fixate on weight, as I'm not getting any younger.
And yes, the 4D pads (deluxe) are the bees knees. They were my third set of pads while figuring out what I liked ... and they're staying!
Something worth adding to this is that the Wilcox mounts ... have perfect lockup with Wilcox shrouds; no movement, at all in my experiences, so far.
i.e. Cheap shrouds are ... cheap ... and universal shrouds ... aren't (IMHO). My HHV helmet came with HHV's home-brewed universal shroud and while it looked great, the slop/movement induced by the universal shroud drove me nuts, so I changed it out to a Wilcox and never looked back.
To me, if you're strapping $3k or more to your head, springing for a good mount/shroud combination seems like a no-brainer.
Woah -- smoking good deal.
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Not sure what it is yet. May be a valid “low-cost” option…or not.
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Although there are some advantages to digital over Gen 3 analog I doubt these will be game changers if the street price is $2,600. Firearmblog Writeup
At $1,500 street price they may provide a solid alternative.
At $1,500 street price they may provide a solid alternative.
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Very nice setups sir! Been meaning to get some wraps myself for my tubes. These are the nicest looking ones I've ever seen.
I agree that those are swanky. @phillyray - Are they actually fabric -- as in: something that will absorb and hold moisture? Or are they just textured as such when they are actually a synthetic that doesn't absorb/hold moisture, at all?
They are made from milspec cordura. Just like those Safariland holsters. I dont see moisture being an issue honestly since they are poly-coated.
Info from the website: “
Our wraps are made from genuine CORDURA® fabric that is made to meet or exceed the physical military requirements of mil spec: MIL-DTL-32439 Type III, Class 3.
CORDURA® brand fabrics are used extensively in military combat gear and are engineered to deliver exceptional resistance to abrasion, puncture, and tears. Poly-coated for water resistance.
Available in solid shades or camouflage printed patterns (MultiCam®).
Sourced only from official CORDURA® authorized suppliers.
100% Made in the USA, Berry Compliant and IR Compliant material.
3M™ industrial strength VHB (Very High Bond) adhesive backing.
US Patent Pending: 63/325,137, 63/32,3060.”
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@steelciocc and @Studentofthegun:
While I love my 4D Tactical Zero G pads, I've finally got enough use under my belt in a range of weather conditions to know that, unless it's super cold out, heat build up inside my lid is an issue ... even in a vented, non-ballistic helmet.
Enter HHV's new (2022) micro lattice pads, which I'm planning to buy soon for summertime use (since I already know HHV is a bit slow to ship to people like me since they prioritize shipments to those in the field over non-field purchases like mine, as they should). I've been keeping an eye on reviews of these by those who have tried them among the HHV FB user's group, and everyone who tried them in spring through fall raved about how much cooler their lids were with these in -- specifically due to airflow that the lattice structure permits. All-day comfort (as noted by those training in their lids sans nods) seems to be a non-issue, and HHV even has (1400fps, 9mm) test data for energy dissipation in one of their ballistic lids supporting their claims of improved protection from these pads when compared with traditional pads.
The only real complaint I've seen is that they leave hex pattern indentations on one's skin/head (which, go away after ~10 mins of no lid). This is something people have been addressing by wearing a moisture-wicking do-rag (which is smart-thinking, anyway, even with traditional pads), as that's enough to minimize the indentations such that they go away more rapidly ... and aren't noticeable while doing so as long as one keeps the do-rag on.
Anyway, I figured I'd share here in case you, too, have found heat buildup to be an issue in non-winter months. While I don't have a ballistic helmet, I want a cooler lid come this summer, and the only reason I haven't already picked up a set is I'm still wrestling with the 3/4" vs. 1" decision...
-- Surreal
P.S. I have no affiliation with HHV and am simply a satisfied owner of one of their non-ballistic helmets.
While I love my 4D Tactical Zero G pads, I've finally got enough use under my belt in a range of weather conditions to know that, unless it's super cold out, heat build up inside my lid is an issue ... even in a vented, non-ballistic helmet.
Enter HHV's new (2022) micro lattice pads, which I'm planning to buy soon for summertime use (since I already know HHV is a bit slow to ship to people like me since they prioritize shipments to those in the field over non-field purchases like mine, as they should). I've been keeping an eye on reviews of these by those who have tried them among the HHV FB user's group, and everyone who tried them in spring through fall raved about how much cooler their lids were with these in -- specifically due to airflow that the lattice structure permits. All-day comfort (as noted by those training in their lids sans nods) seems to be a non-issue, and HHV even has (1400fps, 9mm) test data for energy dissipation in one of their ballistic lids supporting their claims of improved protection from these pads when compared with traditional pads.
The only real complaint I've seen is that they leave hex pattern indentations on one's skin/head (which, go away after ~10 mins of no lid). This is something people have been addressing by wearing a moisture-wicking do-rag (which is smart-thinking, anyway, even with traditional pads), as that's enough to minimize the indentations such that they go away more rapidly ... and aren't noticeable while doing so as long as one keeps the do-rag on.
Anyway, I figured I'd share here in case you, too, have found heat buildup to be an issue in non-winter months. While I don't have a ballistic helmet, I want a cooler lid come this summer, and the only reason I haven't already picked up a set is I'm still wrestling with the 3/4" vs. 1" decision...
-- Surreal
P.S. I have no affiliation with HHV and am simply a satisfied owner of one of their non-ballistic helmets.
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Looking forward to your review of the HHV pads. I’ve seen positive reviews on arfcom.
I haven’t used my gear aggressively enough during the warmer months to have an opinion on the 4D pads performance when it’s hot out. I love ‘em in cooler conditions but am sure they can get steamy in the summer.
I haven’t used my gear aggressively enough during the warmer months to have an opinion on the 4D pads performance when it’s hot out. I love ‘em in cooler conditions but am sure they can get steamy in the summer.
Mine were drenched from summer use, but I'm one of those who sweats so badly that, when doing outdoor work, I have to wear a sweatband (even in modest temperatures), lest I have perspiration saturate my eyebrows and then drip onto my glasses and/or into my eyes.
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