Is it possible? Finding an older 1911...

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holdenarm

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Seems crazy how expensive older USGI 1911s have gotten. Apart from CMP, do you guys have any suggestions about where to look for a functional/ mostly correct USGI 1911 (exact age unimportant) just as a shooter? Don't care about blemishes, minor part replacements, refinishes...
 
You're about to go down a rabbit hole, but that's part of what makes collectible GI pistols so fascinating.

By "correct" I'm assuming you mean major parts like slide and frame. Bonus for original/correct bushing, spring guide, hammer, and trigger. The smaller parts are next to impossible to discern, but if the pistol was in service for any length of time, it's a pretty safe bet they've been replaced at some point.

Now, it gets sticky.

If the slide is original WW1 or WW2 GI, it hasn't been heat treated. The WW2 slies were hardened from the front to an inch or so back, and around the slidestop notch. Everything else is dead soft and not only prone to cracking in the port adjacent to the breechface, but also recoil peening at the rear faces of the lugs. This will show with a stair-stepped appearance and can also be present on the front faces of the barrel upper lugs. If this condition is noted, the headspace is excessive, and possibly dangerously so. This is why the US government ordered about a half dozen spare slides and barrels for every complete pistol delivered.

If the pistol has been rearsenaled, and the slide has been replaced with as mid-1946 and later "hard" slide, the barrel has also been replaced, and is suitable for use. Otherwise, it's not a good idea to shoot a original/correct GI pistol very much. Like, a magazine full to commemorate the Normandy landing or your veteran father's birthday or something of that nature.

Hope this helps.
 
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holdenarm said:
Seems crazy how expensive older USGI 1911s have gotten. Apart from CMP, do you guys have any suggestions about where to look for a functional/ mostly correct USGI 1911 (exact age unimportant) just as a shooter? Don't care about blemishes, minor part replacements, refinishes...
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This might be a good place to look. This show leans more towards the quality milsurps than a regular C&E or Dixie show.


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John Travis said:
You're about to go down a rabbit hole, but that's part of what makes collectible GI pistols so fascinating.

By "correct" I'm assuming you mean major parts like slide and frame. Bonus for original/correct bushing, spring guide, hammer, and trigger. The smaller parts are next to impossible to discern, but if the pistol was in service for any length of time, it's a pretty safe bet they've been replaced at some point.

Now, it gets sticky.

If the slide is original WW1 or WW2 GI, it hasn't been heat treated. The WW2 slies were hardened from the front to an inch or so back, and around the slidestop notch. Everything else is dead soft and not only prone to cracking in the port adjacent to the breechface, but also recoil peening at the rear faces of the lugs. This will show with a stair-stepped appearance and can also be present on the front faces of the barrel upper lugs. If this condition is noted, the headspace is excessive, and possibly dangerously so. This is why the US government ordered about a half dozen spare slides and barrels for every complete pistol delivered.

If the pistol has been rearsenaled, and the slide has been replaced with as mid-1946 and later "hard" slide, the barrel has also been replaced, and is suitable for use. Otherwise, it's not a good idea to shoot a original/correct GI pistol very much. Like, a magazine full to commemorate the Normandy landing or your veteran father's birthday or something of that nature.

Hope this helps.
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Sir, I love your posts. You have forgotten more about the 1911 than I could ever know.


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holdenarm said:
Seems crazy how expensive older USGI 1911s have gotten. Apart from CMP, do you guys have any suggestions about where to look for a functional/ mostly correct USGI 1911 (exact age unimportant) just as a shooter? Don't care about blemishes, minor part replacements, refinishes...
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Midsouth Guns in Wagram
 
Yeah, I parked my early 1911s and picked up a used 5” Kimber to take the range abuse. Never looked back.
 
Chuckman said:
Sir, I love your posts. You have forgotten more about the 1911 than I could ever know.
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What a nice thing to say. I'm glad @John Travis is willing to set awhile and talk with us.

But fewer and fewer people care, because the 1911 sucks, and it's so yesterday, you know? If anyone buys a 1911 these days, they want it in 9mm. Everyone wants a lightweight striker fired plastic doublestack 9mm.

Imagine a gun store with a sign out front saying, "All Steel Handguns in Stock" or "We Specialize in 45 acp Pistols"... mebbe in Wagram, but not many other places.
 
MacEntyre said:
What a nice thing to say. I'm glad @John Travis is willing to set awhile and talk with us.

But fewer and fewer people care, because the 1911 sucks, and it's so yesterday, you know? If anyone buys a 1911 these days, they want it in 9mm. Everyone wants a lightweight striker fired plastic doublestack 9mm.

Imagine a gun store with a sign out front saying, "All Steel Handguns in Stock" or "We Specialize in 45 acp Pistols"... mebbe in Wagram, but not many other places.
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Because the Marine Corps is anachronistic and 'do more with less' we used 1911s after the rest of the Corps went to Berettas. I learned to love them, shoot them, do basic maintenance, but I didn't learn anything about them because the armorers treated us like children and the 1911s like precious heirlooms. It wasn't until I got my own and had issues and @John Travis helped me out, years ago, on the old forum.

I loved that MEU(SOC) 1911 like someone would have loved their 66 Mustang or their father's WW2-era 1911. And you know what? That thing never failed to work.
 
My buddy deals in vintage Colt 1911's and owns several 3-digit, "known" guns. He has shown me most of his collection and his knowledge of "Correct" is amazing. We'll walk through gun shows and he'll point out what's wrong and mismatched with 1911's, G41's, G/K 43's, 1941 Johnsons, etc. It's just too much to learn for me to get into collecting even the lower-level, old guns. You really have to know what you're doing so you don't get taken. I think combat shotguns have become the same with so many fakes out there.....
 
I've owned many and suggest you find a copy of Charles W. Clawson's book as you will find it very helpful identifying markings, serial numbers, triggers, hammers, barrels, etc... There is a big difference in the value of a correct example and a parts pistol...(this book is very expensive @ $350-$600 in new condition. There is a big book version that runs $1500-$3000)

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We used to get 1911A1s turned in for frame cracks through the slide stop cut out but not for slide failures. Those obviously happened because post war replacement slides were in the parts system, I just didn't see the failures in my 3 years working in a 7th corps small arms classification and collection shop.
 
MDO said:
I've owned many and suggest you find a copy of Charles W. Clawson's book as you will find it very helpful identifying markings, serial numbers, triggers, hammers, barrels, etc... There is a big difference in the value of a correct example and a parts pistol...(this book is very expensive @ $350-$600 in new condition. There is a big book version that runs $1500-$3000)

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I have a copy of Clawson's collector's guide and also his Big Book if anyone local to Charlotte would like to peruse it. I'm not planning on loaning them out unless I really know you because of the current value. I was fortunate to purchase back when my PaPa gave me his WWII Colt that started my love of the 1911.
 
A lot of finding an earlier 1911 is being at the right place at the right time, and a little luck.
I lucked into a Colt framed, Remington Rand slided bullseye gun from the 1950s, and I let it go too soon.
Next up is the 1918 Colt I found in a local gun shop. Sometime after WWI it had some custom work done by the King sight company, and at 105 years old it still shoots like a house on fire.
Best advice I can give you is make the rounds at your local gun stores, and pawn shops, you never know what you're gonna find.
 
John Travis said:
Which is neither here nor there. Most modern pistols have had that portion of the rail removed in order to stop all the piss'n'moan over that inconsequential crack.
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The point that I was making is that many GI 1911A1s were used for decades without slides becoming unservicable. They should be up for more than a once a year range trip.
 
Was lucky to be in MP school in 1970 and get to qualify with one and learn to field strip, clean and reassemble one almost blindfolded. It made me a 1911 fan for life.
 
Betsy born in 1917. Cost $217 + $90.00 for her org shoes. Her 2 sisters were born in 1918 & one had a cracked frame, aka 0 ser# now sports a classic https://www.caspianarms.com/receiver/classic-receiver-carbon
From 1917 to 2011 I have 9 beautiful examples of Americas fighting pistol. I have Tupperware for my food scraps!
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haroldg48 said:
Was lucky to be in MP school in 1970 and get to qualify with one and learn to field strip, clean and reassemble one almost blindfolded. It made me a 1911 fan for life.
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We did it blindfolded at Ft Knox for Armor OSUT and had a graded exercise where we had to strip & reassemble within a specific period. I remember during one session, someone in front of me let the recoil spring plug loose under pressure and it passed by my head close enough for me to feel it go by. I'm glad I had something over my eyes. 🧐
 
holdenarm said:
Seems crazy how expensive older USGI 1911s have gotten. Apart from CMP, do you guys have any suggestions about where to look for a functional/ mostly correct USGI 1911 (exact age unimportant) just as a shooter? Don't care about blemishes, minor part replacements, refinishes...
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If you think CMP ones are expensive, wait till you see what people want for a gun such as you describe. The CMP guns are a bargain compared to them.

I sold one a few weeks ago that needed the sights replaced for $1500 to a dealer who was going to flip it. Someone had put target sights on it but in such a way to not permanently alter it. Nice gun otherwise and probably bring 2K+ once restored.
 
In a moment of insanity I sold a 100% correct 1944 1911 in excellent condition for $2500. That was four or five years ago.

Hey! This thread has been around a while!
 
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MDO said:
I have a spare copy of Clawson's book... I too sold a 100% Colt for $1000 more than I had invested and someone got a bargain....CMP's are a bargain compared to a 100% Colt, Ithaca or US&S...
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rufrdr said:
The point that I was making is that many GI 1911A1s were used for decades without slides becoming unservicable. They should be up for more than a once a year range trip.
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That's also because USGI guns were fired relatively sparingly, compared to later 1911s, the WWI & WWII guns were fired for qualifying, and not much else. The original manufacturering specs gave a life expectation of a certain amount of rounds down the pipe, those guns, with few exceptions are soft by modern standards. And I'm not making it up, it's a documented issue with surplus GI guns.
Once I get things arranged, my 1918 Colt will be getting a new slide and barrel, the original will be happily retired.
 
USMC6094 said:
the WWI & WWII guns were fired for qualifying, and not much else.
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While that's generally true for WW2 era pistols, during WW1, they were used in active combat roles with mounted cavalry. Of course, once the horse soldiers arrived in their assigned positions, they dismounted and switched to their carbines, so it's difficult to imagine a scenario where their sidearms would be fired more than a couple dozen times before getting into position.

USMC6094 said:
, with few exceptions are soft by modern standards.
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Not with few exceptions. With no exceptions...and they weren't relatively soft. They were dead soft. In 1936, Colt started installing hardened steel inserts in the breechface to prevent recoil peening around the firing pin hole so that they'd last at least until the lugs started to deform. The ones that managed to survive past 6-7,000 rounds generally developed the crack adjacent to the breechface that I've seen in so many WW1 and WW2 slides.

Most people who notice the insert assume that it's a toolmark. I've actually seen a few that were starting to back out. Use of the insert ended in late 1946 with fully hardened replacement slides.
 
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