Know what you put in your 38 snub gun!

JRV said:
@John Travis, I am asking this respectfully (you've forgotten more about 1911s than I will ever know): what is the basis for your belief that the "far more likely" scenario involves nighttime close-range fighting with a contact weapon?

An entangled, contact-distance shoot is as fanciful a scenario as a running gunfight. There is obviously not a whole lot of data on civilian defensive shootings, but what is there emphasizes marksmanship at reasonable distances by orders of magnitude over a backpedaling edged-weapon attack.

Tom Givens has been tracking student shootings for decades. His data set is dozens of documented civilian defensive shootings (last I heard from folks at the Rangemaster conference, the number was near 80). Most were in response to aggravated assaults or armed robberies. Contact shooting and distances above 7 yards were both extreme outliers (fewer than a handful of examples of each, though 10+ yard distances were more common than entangled gunfights). The overwhelming majority of student shootings were
- in public places (convenience stores and parking lots),
- at distances around or just over a car's length,
- involved one to three shots, and
- involved a draw to two-handed, sighted fire.

Anecdotally, nearly every shooting I was called to (civilian reported or OIS) or have worked on post-LE (with DA's offices or on civil suits) comports with Givens' data: parking lot, convenience store, workplace, or home; 3 to 10 yards; 1 to 3 rounds. I can only recall one "entangled" shooting from one of my old jobs, and that still doesn't really fit the mold. The arresting deputy NDed into his own leg wrestling the suspect (he disabled the retention hood on his holster, and he was trying to reholster while fighting), prompting my friend (his trainee, who was on the other side of the perp) to brain the suspect in response.

If the 90%+ odds are I will have to make a 3-to-10 yard shot fast (and this tracks with the distances I saw back in LE, for the times I did have to draw), then there's a 90%+ chance that accuracy and POA/POI will be relevant. My J frames can be as much as 3" off POA with the wrong bullet at 10 yards. Assuming no lucky breaks, that's enough to make a good hit bad, or a bad hit a miss.
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Agree. competition is not an analog to a real gun fight but it simulates the physiological effects-namely tunnel vision, increased heart rate, reduction in fine motor skills.
Will competition guarantee you coming out on top in a gunfight? No. However I can guarantee arrogance and complacency will get you killed.
 
John Travis said:
Back in the early 80s, I picked up an LEO publication at a gun show for an article on the .41 Magnum and the Model 58.

There was another article that I found fascinating. Wish I'd kept the magazine, but like so many things, it got lost.

An Illinois state trooper pulled a stop that wound up in a parking lot. As soon as the trooper exited his vehicle, the subject hit the ground firing. Trooper took cover behind his vehicle and returned fire. According to the witnesses, he fired his revolver dry...stood up and dumped his empty brass into his right hand...made a quarter turn to the right...and was standing there looking at the ground while his assailant calmly walked up to within 10 feet and killed him.

Investigators were puzzled until one of them realized that he was looking for the bucket that he'd dropped his brass into on the practice range hundreds of times.



Don't think it can't happen. It may only take a half second to remember and correct, but a half second is a long time in a fight for life.

I was witness to one such event on a morning patrol near a place we called Dogpatch. You probably never heard of it. We came under fire, and everybody was on the ground firing back. One Marine's rifle malfunctioned...and he raised his hand. Anyone who's done their time with Uncle Sugar will understand why. As it turned out, he'd simply emptied his magazine.

Funny thing, stress.


I never said that. My point was and is to be careful of the things that you get into the habit of doing. They have a way of popping up unexpectedly.

Auditory exclusion is real. Tunnel vision is real. Time and space distortion is real. Forgetting to do the right thing can happen to anybody at any time.
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Since you have much to relay in the realm of gunfights, what training/practice regimen do you recommend?

What do you do specifically to "stay sharp"? Do you shoot on a daily basis? How many rounds do you suppose you put downrange in a given year?
 
Studentofthegun said:
Since you have much to relay in the realm of gunfights, what training/practice regimen do you recommend?

What do you do specifically to "stay sharp"? Do you shoot on a daily basis? How many rounds do you suppose you put downrange in a given year?
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First, let's refrain from snark. It's unbecoming. I don't rise to the bait.

Second, I haven't attended any schools since Infantry/Combat training, so I can't comment on any of them.

Third, At one time I was burning between 50 and 60 thousand rounds a year just through my pistols, but I'm old and tired now, and I haven't fired a round in over three years. My statements are based on observations, and all I've tried to "relay" here is to be mindful of the habits that you form during your practice and competition because they can become an autoresponse.

Finally, the thing I've seen over and over on these forums is that young usually men ignore the advice coming from old men because they've been to the best schools and they've shot well in practice and in competition and they think they understand what's coming should someone hoist the Baker Flag on'em. Let me go ahead and advise you that if and when that day comes, it won't happen like you think it will.

It's like a salty old Master Guns told us before we deployed:

"You're going to a dangerous place. If you want the best chance of surviving, listen to those who've been there for six months."

And, the wise words of Will Rogers:

"A man who's had a tiger by the tail knows five or six more things about tigers than one that ain't."

Be well
 
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One of the big reasons I would not carry a 38 snubnose was this chart right here: ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/38special.html

Also, they can be VERY humbling. If you can shoot a DA snubnose well, you are likely to shoot a lot of other handguns well as they really highlight any issues with fundamentals.

Smallest I would be willing to go for a revolver would be a 3" 357 magnum, and even then there is a huge gap between the energy generated in a 3" vs. a 6" barrel.

Revolvers are neat and still viable tools, but we live in a (mostly) free state, so why not slip a S&W CSX, Sig 365 or LCP Max in your pocket with 12+ rounds of 9mm or 380?
 
John Travis said:
First, let's refrain from snark. It's unbecoming. I don't rise to the bait.
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I'm amendable to that so long as you refrain from assuming that everyone else is ignorant. Making assumptions about other folks without knowing them is a young man's mistake and is very unbecoming.

That being said, I understand the propensity to do so and respect you despite that. I'm no spring chicken either and when I'm teaching new shooters it is something important to keep in mind.

John Travis said:
Third, At one time I was burning between 50 and 60 thousand rounds a year just through my pistols, but I'm old and tired now, and I haven't fired a round in over three years. My statements are based on observations, and all I've tried to "relay" here is to be mindful of the habits that you form during your practice and competition because they can become an autoresponse.
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Skills rust quickly. At one time I also went through about 50k rounds a year. That's gone down to about 20k these days simply due to work and other commitments.

The entire point of practice is to establish those habits. The trick is making sure they are good ones. As was stated earlier, many competition shooters are not one dimensional. I always practice with my concealed carry gun(s) as well as the firearms that I intend to use for home defense. In my experience, other competition shooters do the same. The exception to that rule is the kiddos that shoot the rimfire matches, but a large percentage of them end up carrying once they get old enough.

John Travis said:
Finally, the thing I've seen over and over on these forums is that young usually men ignore the advice coming from old men because they've been to the best schools and they've shot well in practice and in competition and they think they understand what's coming should someone hoist the Baker Flag on'em. Let me go ahead and advise you that if and when that day comes, it won't happen like you think it will.
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Actually, that day already came for me.

But you didn't bother to ask, you just assumed. Auditory exclusion is a real thing, yes. Experienced it personally. Nothing you're telling me here is particularly new information. I don't mean any offense, but nothing you've said couldn't have been gleaned from reading Guns & Ammo magazine from the 1980's.

But you ain't wrong about some of the young guys on this forum. Nothing should keep you from dispensing your prodigious 1911 wisdom on the forum. Or whatever other points of view you have. Least of all me.

You're right: nobody knows exactly how they are going to act. That is true. However, your contention seems to be that competition shooting is detrimental and that's patently false. Tactics get updated over time. Competition, to some extent, is the laboratory where new ideas are tested. Some persist and others are discarded. For example, we've started putting lights on firearms now.

Back in the day, I was rolling around with a Model 15 Smith and a flashlight, using the Harries Technique. Of course then there was Rogers, Ayoob, and others, including one I came up with myself. Now, just about every firearm I would ever use to defend myself has a light mounted on it. How did I figure out what works and what doesn't? Two gun night matches at 37 PSR.

Buddy, if you'd have been there you'd have laughed at us until you hurt yourself. Some of the most hilarious things happened while we were running around in the dark shooting at poorly illuminated targets. Some equipment was wrecked. But now we know.

Much of my hair is turning white now (what part of it isn't simply disappearing). I think back to the hundreds of people I have taught to shoot over the years. Some of them have surpassed, came back and taught me a thing or two. It's humbling. Also gratifying.

Getting older sure beats the alternative. It moves along whether we want it to or not. Some words of wisdom are timeless. Example: new fangled bullets have been set aside in deference to the wisdom of the ancients like Elmer Keith, who taught us that big heavy bullets perform best for most purposes.

The fact that technology and tactics move on is often a bitter pill to swallow. But we should be "students of the gun" and always make an effort to learn. Competition shooting is a bit like racing cars. It's the laboratory where things are often sussed out. Red dots sights on pistols are a prime example of this. Now they are ubiquitous and have earned a place on carry guns.

Sadly, competition shooting requires a heck of a monetary/time commitment as you well know. Those on fixed income often find they have not enough of one and plenty of the other.

What we need is to bridge the divide between the old, wise shooter who has spent a lifetime with firearms (thinking they have all the answers) and young, perhaps somewhat arrogant shooters that feel like they've got all the answers.

The way to get there is for the seasoned shooter to accept that the "new school" has certain merits and the new shooter to understand that some things are timeless and immutable when mutual combat is concerned.

That requires one party to stop assuming everyone else is ignorant and the other to shut up and listen.

Funny thing, time.
 
I love discounting the input of the "young" when the young are near middle-aged and have specific experience that rebuts a favorite myth. I'm not a 20-something who took a few classes. No one here is.

I realize that there are people who will not change their minds because they know what they know, they haven't died after decades, and that's proof enough that their wary beliefs about competition are "right." That's fine. This being a discussion forum, let's discuss it on the merits instead of simply putting out an authoritative statement, walking it back as a belief, and claiming all disagreement is out of naivete.

Combat sports are beneficial for everyone* that carries a gun for work or defense. That is an opinion. It is not an unprovable fact. It is not natural law. However, I believe that, as far as an opinion goes, it is a "correct" opinion.

Fears of bad outcomes based on the myth of autoresponses are unfounded and misplaced. Regular competition will not make someone "unload and show clear" before reholstering. It will not make someone pocket brass, or stand frozen waiting for an audible "beep." That is an opinion based on myths and irrelevant examples. It should be challenged critically and openly. That opinion could, stated with authority on a public forum, dissuade someone from getting into the sports.

*I will caveat this: everyone does not mean everyone. We all know one or two people that are miracles of modern science... incomprehensibly, medically dumb, but somehow alive. People that cannot close a pocket knife without injury. The one recruit in every basic class that hand-cycles a semi-auto firearm every shot. At that point, we are discussing levels of competence so low that they have no relevance to anyone.

Avoidable bad outcomes arise from the failure to practice skills regularly under stress. I have seen far more problems arise from a failure to practice under stress than "bad habits" formed because of range safety protocols. I typed out specific personal examples based on fights and two different gunhandling problems I witnessed. The post got unwieldy and overlong. One example was a cop (a Marine 03XX vet from the height of GWOT) pointing his pistol at me on accident... not "swept" or "flagged," mind you, but actually pushing into me and others with his pistol to communicate during a stressful warrant service. I'm also fairly sure at least one of the fights ended with my former department's insurance carrier being notified (I was interviewed about it by IA), so I'm not going to put any specific details out.

The problems I saw were in real fights with deputies that refused to train combat sports. The problems I saw with gunhandling (safety and marksmanship) were always with deputies that did not shoot for sport... even instructors and guys on SWAT. Conversely, I experienced no autoresponse problems in real fights because of combat sports; only benefits that helped me win. I did not experience any negative "competition" reflexes with my gunhandling, not once, despite years of competition prior to hitting the road.

Experience (grabbing the tiger by the tail) is nothing without recency (regular practice) and relevance (related practice).

There is only one way to accumulate regular, relevant practice
(i) making hard shots fast,
(ii) moving safely and aggressively with a gun,
(iii) thinking with a gun (both in terms of shot confirmation at speed and solving problems like moving targets), and
(iv) objectively judging your performance against shooters (so you can develop improvement plans).

Practical competition checks all four boxes. "Training" alone, however nebulous that topic is from instructor to instructor, does not provide enough regular, repeated stress to be useful.

Back on topic: @S&Wtinkerer, there are still a few places where snubs are really nice options compared to subs and micros. I have a 340PD with 3D-printed carbon fiber boot grips... it's about 14.5 ounces loaded, fills the hand decently well, and doesn't have sharp corners that scream "gun" in a pocket or on an ankle. It doesn't weigh down a pocket in slacks. It's very tolerant of pocket lint.

Darryl Bolke (retired SOCAL SWAT cop, co-owner of Hardwired Tactical with Wayne Dobbs) does a great job explaining why someone might want to go for a less efficient, simple-to-operate snub versus other small options.
 
No no no, y'all were driving headlong toward an epic full page reply, don't go back on topic now, I haven't finished my sammich.
 
JRV said:
I love discounting the input of the "young" when the young are near middle-aged and have specific experience that rebuts a favorite myth. I'm not a 20-something who took a few classes. No one here is.

I realize that there are people who will not change their minds because they know what they know, they haven't died after decades, and that's proof enough that their wary beliefs about competition are "right." That's fine. This being a discussion forum, let's discuss it on the merits instead of simply putting out an authoritative statement, walking it back as a belief, and claiming all disagreement is out of naivete.

Combat sports are beneficial for everyone* that carries a gun for work or defense. That is an opinion. It is not an unprovable fact. It is not natural law. However, I believe that, as far as an opinion goes, it is a "correct" opinion.

Fears of bad outcomes based on the myth of autoresponses are unfounded and misplaced. Regular competition will not make someone "unload and show clear" before reholstering. It will not make someone pocket brass, or stand frozen waiting for an audible "beep." That is an opinion based on myths and irrelevant examples. It should be challenged critically and openly. That opinion could, stated with authority on a public forum, dissuade someone from getting into the sports.

*I will caveat this: everyone does not mean everyone. We all know one or two people that are miracles of modern science... incomprehensibly, medically dumb, but somehow alive. People that cannot close a pocket knife without injury. The one recruit in every basic class that hand-cycles a semi-auto firearm every shot. At that point, we are discussing levels of competence so low that they have no relevance to anyone.

Avoidable bad outcomes arise from the failure to practice skills regularly under stress. I have seen far more problems arise from a failure to practice under stress than "bad habits" formed because of range safety protocols. I typed out specific personal examples based on fights and two different gunhandling problems I witnessed. The post got unwieldy and overlong. One example was a cop (a Marine 03XX vet from the height of GWOT) pointing his pistol at me on accident... not "swept" or "flagged," mind you, but actually pushing into me and others with his pistol to communicate during a stressful warrant service. I'm also fairly sure at least one of the fights ended with my former department's insurance carrier being notified (I was interviewed about it by IA), so I'm not going to put any specific details out.

The problems I saw were in real fights with deputies that refused to train combat sports. The problems I saw with gunhandling (safety and marksmanship) were always with deputies that did not shoot for sport... even instructors and guys on SWAT. Conversely, I experienced no autoresponse problems in real fights because of combat sports; only benefits that helped me win. I did not experience any negative "competition" reflexes with my gunhandling, not once, despite years of competition prior to hitting the road.

Experience (grabbing the tiger by the tail) is nothing without recency (regular practice) and relevance (related practice).

There is only one way to accumulate regular, relevant practice
(i) making hard shots fast,
(ii) moving safely and aggressively with a gun,
(iii) thinking with a gun (both in terms of shot confirmation at speed and solving problems like moving targets), and
(iv) objectively judging your performance against shooters (so you can develop improvement plans).

Practical competition checks all four boxes. "Training" alone, however nebulous that topic is from instructor to instructor, does not provide enough regular, repeated stress to be useful.

Back on topic: @S&Wtinkerer, there are still a few places where snubs are really nice options compared to subs and micros. I have a 340PD with 3D-printed carbon fiber boot grips... it's about 14.5 ounces loaded, fills the hand decently well, and doesn't have sharp corners that scream "gun" in a pocket or on an ankle. It doesn't weigh down a pocket in slacks. It's very tolerant of pocket lint.

Darryl Bolke (retired SOCAL SWAT cop, co-owner of Hardwired Tactical with Wayne Dobbs) does a great job explaining why someone might want to go for a less efficient, simple-to-operate snub versus other small options.
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I can see that there are definitely roles to be filled, the outline isn't as bad as some semi-autos. Honestly haven't ever pocket-carried a revolver so I wasn't sure how lint and debris would impact it. I have carried IWB and OWB, but never in a boot or pocket. The first centerfire pistol I shot was a S&W Model 36. I thought I was just a terrible pistol shot for years until I shot a Ruger Standard 22 one day.
 
JRV said:
Jim Cirillo (coincidentally a snub advocate) was a big advocate of mano-a-mano pin competitions back in the day. One of his partners notably used a competition-modified Colt 1911 for stakeout squad work.
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Jim's main partner was my oldest RSO (out of 21 RSO's) at the range I ran. What a character. Carried a full size 1911 in 10mm for his last couple of decades. LOTS of stories. R.I.P.


We hosted lots of monthly competitions at my range, IDPA/IPSC, etc. The debate over how well some of the 'training' will translate into an actual gunfight has been going on well before my time, so I won't comment....Except to say that the stress of competition or a clock is obviously better than plinking, but we've had excellent shooters win multiple trophies that have never been in a confrontation in their life, much less a physical one. Dealing with extreme stress is a component many in that (often heated) discussion leave out. An example, as an instructor, at one point my worst shooter was a former infantry Marine who saw action in Iraq. Horrible shot with a pistol. But, when things got ugly, he was calm and cool and very willing to get into it. Who would you choose to have next to you in a gunfight, Mr. Trophy or the bad range shooter? (rhetorical)

I love J-frames, but I carry .357's. Ballistically, that changes things up a bit from the .38 discussion, but though I'd add it in.


I no longer study the stats like I once did, but the "3/3/3 rule" (3 feet, 3 seconds, 3 rounds) always seemed more probable to me in my very limited experiences in being involved in (legal) armed citizen shootings (I have much more experience in illegal and LE shootings, but that's a different animal). I sat in a class in Chicago given by Ed Sanow (I sat right next to Massab Ayoob who was giving his own classes later in the day/week). The discussion was about off-duty/citizen carry and projectile performance. Unfortunately this was 10+ years ago, so the choices I made then didn't get worse, but maybe there are better choices since.
 
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I have been carrying a J-frame off and on for several decades. I forget what ammo I have in it right now, but I have used wad cutters in the past. I enjoy the various gun games, have participated in a few, and hope to be able to shoot more of them soon. The main thing I got from the games is knowing what equipment works and what does not. Shooting a lot quickly will point out weak points that need correcting.
 
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Used S&W 49 .38 REVOLVER – Ed’s Gun Shop

The best online gun shops. Guns, shooting, hunting, survival, accessories, and more.
edsgunshop.com edsgunshop.com

Not to push this thread into another direction but I stumbled across a Model 49 for a reasonable price. And figured people who commented on this thread might be interested in this variant.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
As I have said too many times...here we run all J Frames with a 230 Grain Full Wad Cutter loaded to 800 FPS...same specs as .45 230 Ball.

Somebody always asks....Isn't that hard on the gun????? THAT was never part of the equation............shoot 5 for "effect"...then load for life.
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Billy graciously gave me some of these last time I visited. I fired one (so I would have the 5 remaining) out of my 642; it'll wake you up.

The rest of the cylinder had cowboy loads in it. 🤪

230.jpg
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
As I have said too many times...here we run all J Frames with a 230 Grain Full Wad Cutter loaded to 800 FPS...same specs as .45 230 Ball.

Somebody always asks....Isn't that hard on the gun????? THAT was never part of the equation............shoot 5 for "effect"...then load for life.
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And they can be put in a green or white box! Or a paper sack or a plastic zip lock bag. We are so much more versatile than Remington
 
Where could I get some of those bullets or a mold to make them? What would be a suggested starting point as far as power is concerned? I bet both your hand and ears would be amazed when you shot one of them. Sounds fun.
 
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