LR introductory rifle options?

Downeast

Downeast

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We had two guys that came out to shoot at our last match who had never shot beyond 200 yards and they were pretty excited. We let them shoot our rifles for the day. I think they are hooked as they both asked what should they buy so that they could come back and shoot their own rifles. Both of them have kids in college and so forth so they are on a limited budget. I told them that it would be silly to spend thousands on a rifle/optic combo only to find out 6 months down the road that LR shooting was not something they really enjoyed. I've seen it happen before. I suggested a bolt gun in either 6.5 Creed or .308 Winchester. Both are capable of getting out there and ammo is readily available. We typically shoot prone out to 600 yards at paper targets (1/2 moa "x" ring") and using steel targets for "sighters" and occasionally shooting out to 900 yards. Some of the guys shoot PRS style too but these two really liked shooting prone for score.

Maybe something like this:

www.sportsmans.com

Savage Arms 110 Tactical Matte Black Bolt Action Rifle - 308 Winchester - 24in

Savage Arms 110 Tactical Matte Black Bolt Action Rifle - 308 Winchester - 24in - Savage's 110 Tactical model is designed for high-stakes precision and adaptability. It features Savage's AccuFit synthetic stock with five comb riser sizes for the perfect cheek-to-stock weld, four composite inserts...
www.sportsmans.com www.sportsmans.com

I believe it comes in 6.5 too. Personally I would lean towards the 6.5 Creed over the .308 Win simply because of the ballistics but both are capable mid-range calibers.

Optics are a bit of a challenge so I was thinking some of the Arken products in the $500 range. I've heard good things about them. (??)

EP5 5-25X56mm FFP MOA VPR Reticle

www.arkenopticsusa.com www.arkenopticsusa.com

I'm not sure if this combo would do the job or not? It may just frustrate them. It's easy talking about guns and gear to someone and making recommendations but a bit different when they are going to purchase what you tell them. Like I wish that they could get longer barrels. At those ranges they will need every foot of velocity they can get. And I'm not sure if this rifle will even hold a group at 600?

Anyone ever get in this situation with new shooters that ask you what to buy? Regardless of what sport they want to shoot.
 
I have about $1350 in this Tikka CTR .223 setup. It goes to 700yds no problem. Any further and I would have opted for 6.5.

The SWFA is certainly the budget option, but it just works. I liked it so much, I put the exact same scope on my CZ457.

The .223 is economical and pleasant to shoot.

My general philosophy when putting this package together was that I didn’t know what I didn’t know, so I didn’t want to drop a ton of money into it. I just wanted to get my feet wet. At this time, I don’t think I want to pursue long range shooting any more than I already have, and this setup satisfies my needs for now.

1C3152AE-E410-48D8-B4D1-6FDF82A6A1F2.jpeg
 
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Tikka in 6.5 Creed or 308 Win would be my first choice, but usually a Savage or Bergara are good to go. And I forgot, the Ruger Americans are usually decent in the accuracy department.

Vortex Viper PST gen 2 (I've have seen them at great prices recently $700), Burris makes some tactical scopes that aren't terribly expensive.

Just my opinion...... A Tikka in 6.5 Creedmoor (lower recoil), Vortex Viper PST, EGW base, Burris rings and a lighter trigger spring will get you a competitive PRS rifle for under 2K.
 
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Best they take a class before spending on equipment. They will save money and not get discouraged.
Edit: I took the Long Range class at Frontline Defense, used Paul's rental rifle Remington 700 .308 and all of us were ringing steel at 1,000yds Black Hills ammo.
 
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Not sure if the Tikka and optics mentioned above fit in their budget but good information for sure. I started shooting with both Burris and Vortex PST's and they are decent. I'm not sure if either the Tikka or the Savage are capable of shooting tight enough to win but they will learn the fundamentals and maybe even get them to dig deeper in that rabbit hole and start handloading.
 
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Hard to beat a Bergara B14hmr. Its a 700 foot print, has a decent non tupperware stock and every single one I have seen shoots lights out. Savage has always been very hit or miss with the rifles I have owned. The accustock is a complete pile of trash. If they don't like the Bergara then Tikka is the path forward. This is just my opinion and I am not an expert.
 
My neighbor had a B14 in 6.5 Creed and never could get it to shoot with factory ammo. Even Hornady Match stuff which I hate to say is quite decent ammo. I would have bought it from him if I didn't own 4 Creeds already (including a 6mm) I was going to handload for it and see what it would do. He finally traded it off on something else. I'm beginning to believe that firearms are like cars. No matter what they do there will always be a lemon or two coming off the line. I was just trying to think of something that would get them out there shooting for say under $1500 including optics. Some good info here. Thanks for the comments. Looking back I should have saved my money and had one built to my specs. But I wasn't even sure that I wanted to go down that road to begin with.
 
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You are right about entry level factory rifles, they are hit or miss. I think you are on the right path with your advice. While I think the 6.5 creed is better for anything over 800 yds. The .308 win has a larger factory ammo selection. Which gives you a better chance at finding a factory load your rifle will like.

I’m picking up that Savage 120 tactical from my FFL either tomorrow or Tuesday in 6ARC. Wish it had a longer barrel and after some testing with my suppressor. I may put a longer barrel on it or sell it and purchase another rifle all together. I went with the 6ARC because I’m wanting to try a little PRS shooting and don’t have the time to hand load (if I had time to hand load, I would have went with a 6BR or Dasher).

For glass, you will find all sorts of opinions about what’s best. Usually, you get suggestions that you should but the most expensive glass you can afford. However, for new shooters, I think sticking with a mid budget glass is fine. Vortex, Althon, Burris, and Riton should have a model that fits their budget and allow them to spend more money on ammo. A rifle with the best glass doesn’t do any good if you can’t afford to buy ammo.

I’m mean let’s face it, I suck at golf so giving me Tiger Woods personal golf clubs doesn’t make me a better golfer. On the other side of the coin, you could give Tiger my cheap set of clubs and he would still be better than me. In the beginning it’s more about the Indian than the arrow. Once their skills have plateaued out, then start the equipment race.
 
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Downeast said:
@Average Joe

Good way to put it. A friend just bought a 6XC barrel for an action he found in his closet. 🤣

6 mm XC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
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The 6 XC is one heck of a cartridge! Post up a review once he gets it put together. If it’s anything like my buddy’s 6X47 Lapua, tell him to have an extra barrel on hand and they go quickly lol. But they are a laser beam!
 
I’ve got 3 6.5 creed, 2 Tikkas and one Savage. All of them are get rifles. The Savage is in a MDT chassis and one of the tikkas is in a Manners stock. The other Tikka is in a factory stock but may be getting switched. Depends on how the 6ARC shoots. I want to stay in the production class so I can’t have any non-factory parts (outside muzzle breaks etc).

Also have 2 .308 win, both are Remington 700s. Is in a chassis and the other Bell and Carlson stock. I started shooting precision with .308 win. The Remington in the Bell and Carlson stock is actually my first issued rifle. I was able to purchase it back once it was decommissioned.

I’m a few hours away from you guys but have been thinking about how I can get down there for one of your matches. They sound like my kind of shooting.
 
I've been looking at the Mossberg Patriot LR here the last few weeks. Aside from rings, optics and a bipod, it's nearly a custom rifle, and less than a grand if you shop around, and it's available in 6.5 CM and .308. And it feeds from AICS pattern magazines.
 
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USMC6094 said:
I've been looking at the Mossberg Patriot LR here the last few weeks. Aside from rings, optics and a bipod, it's nearly a custom rifle, and less than a grand if you shop around, and it's available in 6.5 CM and .308. And it feds from AICS pattern magazines.
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Funny that you mentioned that. That same neighbor of mine I mentioned earlier with the Bergara bought one used in a 6.5 CM at a local shop for around $300 and it would not shoot a group with factory ammo to save your life. It was hilarious! I asked him let me see if I could play with it and see if I could get a handload to work. I can't remember the details but I think he gave me a box of 140 Accubonds and that little rifle loved them. It would consistently group 5 shots at or slightly under a moa. We figured that whomever had that rifle originally couldn't get it to shoot and traded it in, probably for pennies on the dollar. And since it wouldn't shoot they had it marked down. You just never know.
 
Me. said:
I’ve taken several long range classes, but never competed. Use that as a measure of the quality of my advice.

In the classes, groups of people would show up, all of whom had the “gear” to reach 1,000 yards. The classes were built to take someone from zero skill (never fired a rifle before) all the way out to understanding and shooting long-range.


By the time we got to the class for shooting 1,000 yards, this is what the 940 yard target looked like at the end of the day.

Everyone in the class got 3 rounds fired at the target.

The hits on this target came from only two of the people in the class. They both came to class with the least expensive setups.

Two hits from a 6mm Creedmoor Ruger (purchased used at Fuquay Gun) and two hits from the woman in the class who brought a stock Savage 110 with (I think) a Vortex scope. Factory off-the shelf ammo. The Savage still had the sticker on it.

View attachment 612471
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To quote a wise old man.............."It's the Indian, not the arrow".


( But I'm sure have some quality arrows helps )

.
 
Remington 700 is always a good choice to start with because you can customize with after mkt pts like stock, trigger and bbl as your interest and budget allow. EuroOptic has a $300 Vortex Strike Eagle 6-24x50 that is a screaming deal. I have a bunch of 700's and I also own that Vortex.
 
In a nutshell when I have someone show up that has never shot very far the first thing we do is check zero at 100 using a chronograph. Then we figure out the bullet being used (BC, length, weight), which is generally factory. I then tell them to download a simple ballistic program on their phone. We then enter all of the relevant information (bullet, velocity, weather, etc.) into the program and get it to "calculate" a table in whatever format we decide on. Depending on the scope we either dial up or use whatever reticle they have and shoot steel at 200. If it still holds a decent group we go to 300. Then for fun we go to 600. Usually they are getting hits if the "DOPE" is right. After that they just have fun dialing and plinking. Not a big deal really if their rifle and scope are working the way they should be. Usually they are hooked and then get interested in such things as wind, mirage, and other things that make it challenging. Our primary interest is F Class shooting with a little PRS on the side. We all pretty well suck at both. Although personally I find PRS to be a bit "easier". At least you can move and shoot and not get cramped up. When you go prone for 20 rounds you can't really quit. You can't move, get up, or relax for any length of time. As you shoot at a itty bitty target through a scope it becomes a challenge to keep it all together. By round 15 or so it gets harder and harder to keep focused and keep shooting as the conditions can easily change from minute to minute. It looks real easy until you get behind the gun on a hot and windy day. But what fun! :cool:
 
JBoyette said:
A buddy of mine just called.

I am building him a 18" AR-15 in .223 now

This will be his first LR rifle
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What does he consider LR? I have a good friend that believes that AR's are the cats meow. And I've seen a few SF guys get hits consistently on steel out to 400 yards but once you get out to 800 or so it becomes a bit sketchy with an AR-15. I consider 600 yards to be mid-range and long range generally 800 plus. Maybe he should get an AR-10 instead (??)
 
Downeast said:
What does he consider LR? I have a good friend that believes that AR's are the cats meow. And I've seen a few SF guys get hits consistently on steel out to 400 yards but once you get out to 800 or so it becomes a bit sketchy with an AR-15. I consider 600 yards to be mid-range and long range generally 800 plus. Maybe he should get an AR-10 instead (??)
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1000yds

I did it alot. (Edit) 77grn SMK and you are good on 3moa targets.

Granted other calibers are better, but not as cheap
 
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Downeast said:
3 moa at 1000? Would that be 30 inches?
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31.5" but not splitting hairs.

Lol

That's great.

In f-class if I shoot a 20rnd string of a real 3moa centered my score would average of 170 out of 200. That's not bad if my bullet impacts are evenly clustered.

2moa would give me an average of 190. So the reality of a 3 moa gun would be 180 or so.

For a .223 18" @ 800+ I would take that all day long.
 
It's true that a better caliber would gain a better score. But for me, the cost is not worth it most of the time.

If I know my true potential of my skill and my rifle. Meaning I have a 3 moa gun and I do 3moa or better then I can be satisfied with the results. Now if I have a 3 moa gun and shoot below a 170, that's not cool.
 
Downeast said:
What does he consider LR? I have a good friend that believes that AR's are the cats meow. And I've seen a few SF guys get hits consistently on steel out to 400 yards but once you get out to 800 or so it becomes a bit sketchy with an AR-15. I consider 600 yards to be mid-range and long range generally 800 plus. Maybe he should get an AR-10 instead (??)
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With a .22 cal projectiles with a maximum weight of 77 grains..... It's tough.

Honestly a 308 Winchester with a much heavier bullet has a practical range of 600-800 yards.
 
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Downeast said:
What does he consider LR? I have a good friend that believes that AR's are the cats meow. And I've seen a few SF guys get hits consistently on steel out to 400 yards but once you get out to 800 or so it becomes a bit sketchy with an AR-15. I consider 600 yards to be mid-range and long range generally 800 plus. Maybe he should get an AR-10 instead (??)
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I was taking a SAM-R to 800 yards easy-peasy. I was a decent shooter. The good ones could go 900, 1,000. For what it's worth, Marine recruits were qualifying with M16 at 500 yards on iron sights.
 
Chuckman said:
I was taking a SAM-R to 800 yards easy-peasy. I was a decent shooter. The good ones could go 900, 1,000. For what it's worth, Marine recruits were qualifying with M16 at 500 yards on iron sights.
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This is true, but what is always not spoken is the 500 yard target is 48" wide. Now, do not get me wrong, 500yds with 62grn M855 or worst M193 is a 4 MOA group every day, all day. But the precent of hits on a E-type past 400m is 60% for anyone shooting service rifles.

What kills me is for the last 20 years I have seen people chase the 1 MOA rifle, with 1 MOA ammo. typically they can keep it together to 300yds, after that, these 1 MOA guns hit rates drop off quickly. Last time I was shooting at distance I was overhearing the lane next to me calling wind in MPH, he got up to 6mph at 400yds, shot his 6.5 creed and missed the target, then added .7mil of right and kept on missing.

I was shooting my 22lr at the same piece of steel and was getting hits at 400 with no wind hold.

I have no idea what he was looking at.
 
@JBoyette That is hilarious. I did watch one of the guys take an AR-15 and hit a 4 inch plate at 400 yards three times in a row. But there was little wind and we were shooting a 12 X 18 steel target for "sighters" first. But it was still impressive to me.
I have started shooting multiple 3 or 5 shot groups and measuring them. And there are few 1 MOA guns out there, in my opinion. My 6.5 Creed is a 1 moa gun because after averaging 10 groups on multiple days that is the "average" group size. But the group range is 0.3 to 1.4 moa. It has shot 3 shot groups in one ratty hole while others are nearly inch and a half. Same load, same conditions. That's why I take very little stock in pics of small groups. Show me ten itty bitty groups and then it begins to mean something. That's what the BR guys dream about. The average nimrod like me is happy knowing that I have a decent chance of shooting 1 moa with one particular rifle on a "good" day. Regardless, it's always a "good" day on the range and it's always fun. If it wasn't I wouldn't be doing it.
 
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Downeast said:
@JBoyette That is hilarious. I did watch one of the guys take an AR-15 and hit a 4 inch plate at 400 yards three times in a row. But there was little wind and we were shooting a 12 X 18 steel target for "sighters" first. But it was still impressive to me.
I have started shooting multiple 3 or 5 shot groups and measuring them. And there are few 1 MOA guns out there, in my opinion. My 6.5 Creed is a 1 moa gun because after averaging 10 groups on multiple days that is the "average" group size. But the group range is 0.3 to 1.4 moa. It has shot 3 shot groups in one ratty hole while others are nearly inch and a half. Same load, same conditions. That's why I take very little stock in pics of small groups. Show me ten itty bitty groups and then it begins to mean something. That's what the BR guys dream about. The average nimrod like me is happy knowing that I have a decent chance of shooting 1 moa with one particular rifle on a "good" day. Regardless, it's always a "good" day on the range and it's always fun. If it wasn't I wouldn't be doing it.
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I get it


I try to keep it realistic and for the $$$ for $$ and fun factor it's hard for me to give up on 77grn TMK's for banging steel and punching holes in paper.

Hunting and so on, different guns, different calibers
 
I guess when you think about it I don't shoot a lot but I shoot steady. I shoot single rounds and try to glean as much info out of every bullet, cartridge, or powder charge that I can get. So, it may take me an hour or more to shoot 20 rounds. My shooting style is not very realistic I guess but I enjoy it. I have a few rifles in 5.56 but I rarely ever shoot them. I still can't figure that one out? :rolleyes: I have an ammo box full of 77g SMK given to me and I have to agree that it does shoot very well indeed.
When I tell folks that I spent $1500 on a scope or $60 for a box of 100 bullets they shake their head and think I've lost my mind. But they never say a word when someone drops $100K (or more) on a boat to go catch a stupid fish. Or spend hundreds on green fees to play golf.

We'll see on what those two guys decide on in regard to purchasing rifles and optics. Should be a hoot getting them out there.
 
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Downeast said:
I guess when you think about it I don't shoot a lot but I shoot steady. I shoot single rounds and try to glean as much info out of every bullet, cartridge, or powder charge that I can get. So, it may take me an hour or more to shoot 20 rounds. My shooting style is not very realistic I guess but I enjoy it. I have a few rifles in 5.56 but I rarely ever shoot them. I still can't figure that one out? :rolleyes: I have an ammo box full of 77g SMK given to me and I have to agree that it does shoot very well indeed.
When I tell folks that I spent $1500 on a scope or $60 for a box of 100 bullets they shake their head and think I've lost my mind. But they never say a word when someone drops $100K (or more) on a boat to go catch a stupid fish. Or spend hundreds on green fees to play golf.

We'll see on what those two guys decide on in regard to purchasing rifles and optics. Should be a hoot getting them out there.
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Everyone enjoys the sport in different ways. In a f-class match it's 30min's per-relay. This includes the sighters and for-score shots. Once sighters are done, 2 shots under 600yds or once called you have 20min's to shoot 20 rounds.
 
JBoyette said:
Everyone enjoys the sport in different ways. In a f-class match it's 30min's per-relay. This includes the sighters and for-score shots. Once sighters are done, 2 shots under 600yds or once called you have 20min's to shoot 20 round
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"Everyone enjoys the sport in different ways"

But no one wants to spend the day replacing shot up posts, mowing, and chopping brush while fighting deer flies and ground bees. LOL!
 
JBoyette said:
This is true, but what is always not spoken is the 500 yard target is 48" wide. Now, do not get me wrong, 500yds with 62grn M855 or worst M193 is a 4 MOA group every day, all day. But the precent of hits on a E-type past 400m is 60% for anyone shooting service rifles.

What kills me is for the last 20 years I have seen people chase the 1 MOA rifle, with 1 MOA ammo. typically they can keep it together to 300yds, after that, these 1 MOA guns hit rates drop off quickly. Last time I was shooting at distance I was overhearing the lane next to me calling wind in MPH, he got up to 6mph at 400yds, shot his 6.5 creed and missed the target, then added .7mil of right and kept on missing.

I was shooting my 22lr at the same piece of steel and was getting hits at 400 with no wind hold.

I have no idea what he was looking at.
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Oh, I get it. Goal is bullseye, but ultimately MOM (Minute Of Man) gets you a pizza box (lowest Marine marksmanship badge).
 
Just a thought game, introduction to LR, why not a 22LR?

CZ457, Athlon FFP scope, and some SK Ammo and you’re building skills, and stretch out to 400 and you’re pushing it to max.

Then after that go to a production class LR rifle.
 
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