Massad Ayoob: The necessity of high capacity magazines.

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0:00 - How important is capacity?
2:00 - Multiple, Skilled Invaders
3:45 - Bad Guys on Drugs
5:30 - 10 Round Magazine Limits
6:25 - Carry Enough Ammunition



He makes some very good points, this week 4 bad guys with long guns robbed a convenient store in Sampson County. They put everyone (staff, customers) on the floor and robbed them. Thankfully no one was injured.
 
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Not an issue for me. Every day I wear a Crye JPC with 12 AR mags, and six G17 mags.

Just kidding, but illustrates my frustration (challenge?): at some point we all have to decide what is reasonable for what we do. You can always make the case for more mags, more bullets, more more more, but at some point you lose the risk : benefit argument.

We fight the next war based on the last war's tactics and the data shows fewer than five rounds total in a gunfight; however, if a couple hi-cap mags are 'just as easy' to carry and employ, then there's not a good reason to do so.
 
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I've generally liked most of Ayoob's opinions over the decades - but not always.

He keeps saying, "We're seeing..., We're seeing....", but no stats. Is what he's seeing reality? Are citizen-involved shootings trending toward more than one assailant?

In the early 90's, the crack epidemic was maxing out. The crime rate in many cities were 4, 5 or 6 times what it is now. The police carried 6-shooters with a couple speed-loaders.

Typically, I don't feel under-gunned when I carry a 5-shot .357 w/extra rounds, but having more and not needing it is better, of course.

On the other hand, after I watched the video of the Rittenhouse shootings, and saw people attacking a person with an AR15 even after he shot someone - I decided to carry my 20-shot FN 5.7 w/ extra mags, just for the capacity.
 
He has been shilling for the gun makers for a lot of years. The chances of you needing to get in a gun battle with your concealed carry are very very very slim. This feeds into paranoia. Everything I have read for civilians in shooting typically doesn't need to reload. Law Enforcement seems perfectly willing to mag dump down a street but we poor civilians are held to a higher standard it seems. I would worry more about getting adequate training with my firearm and being competent and less about how many rounds I had.
 
It's a video for Wilson Combat, so it wouldn't be surprising if it had some advertising angle, but in this case I don't see him trying to sell anything. I think he's giving some talking points against laws establishing low magazine limits. His point is that there is actually a strong case that if the law limits magazine capacity, it is handicapping us in our attempts to defend ourselves. There are several categories of crime where higher capacity might well be called for, including attackers on drugs, attackers wearing body armor, and multiple attackers. When we think about the most likely concealed carry self-defense scenario--an armed robbery--then we're likely thinking of a case where zero to two or three shots is more than enough to solve the problem. But there are outlier events, and we might not want to allow the law to pretend they don't exist.

Each citizen can decide for himself whether/how much ammo to carry. Unless the law decides for him. I'd rather decide for myself.

BTW, agree with Variable that training trumps capacity, but I'd also say there's no reason to see it as an either/or instead of a both/and. Actually, the more training I get, the happier I am with 16 rounds and a reload, plus, at least sometimes, a backup gun. I'm not interested in how my carry gear makes me feel. I'm interested in its objective capability to help me handle situations which may be statistically unlikely, but which still undeniably happen all too often.
 
Next video from him releases on tictok Monday. Something about why you must carry 8 stun grenades to be PC/less lethal up front and a satellite phone and 2 chest seals for use in saving your attacker.....scary legal shit if you dont.
 
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Exactly why if it’s within reach , I’m grabbing my rifle.
Rifles make sense inside the home (but even then I imagine you'd have to be careful to not let your muzzle peek around corners), but wielding one outside the home in an area where shots have been fired should count as suicide by cop.
 
Rifles make sense inside the home (but even then I imagine you'd have to be careful to not let your muzzle peek around corners), but wielding one outside the home in an area where shots have been fired should count as suicide by cop.
The first thing that should come around any corner is one eye that will determine what will happen in the next second inside or out.
 
It's a video for Wilson Combat, so it wouldn't be surprising if it had some advertising angle, but in this case I don't see him trying to sell anything. I think he's giving some talking points against laws establishing low magazine limits. His point is that there is actually a strong case that if the law limits magazine capacity, it is handicapping us in our attempts to defend ourselves. There are several categories of crime where higher capacity might well be called for, including attackers on drugs, attackers wearing body armor, and multiple attackers. When we think about the most likely concealed carry self-defense scenario--an armed robbery--then we're likely thinking of a case where zero to two or three shots is more than enough to solve the problem. But there are outlier events, and we might not want to allow the law to pretend they don't exist.

Each citizen can decide for himself whether/how much ammo to carry. Unless the law decides for him. I'd rather decide for myself.

BTW, agree with Variable that training trumps capacity, but I'd also say there's no reason to see it as an either/or instead of a both/and. Actually, the more training I get, the happier I am with 16 rounds and a reload, plus, at least sometimes, a backup gun. I'm not interested in how my carry gear makes me feel. I'm interested in its objective capability to help me handle situations which may be statistically unlikely, but which still undeniably happen all too often.
I agree with you. I don't plan for the law of averages. If carrying a pistol with 17 rounds doesn't cause a big inconvenience for me, then I want those extra rounds. I also carry medical gear because you never know when someone might get hurt. It's not paranoia. The reality is that bad things happen all the time but we almost never know when they will happen. Better to be over-prepared than under-prepared in my opinion.
 
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Not an issue for me. Every day I wear a Crye JPC with 12 AR mags, and six G17 mags.

Just kidding, but illustrates my frustration (challenge?): at some point we all have to decide what is reasonable for what we do. You can always make the case for more mags, more bullets, more more more, but at some point you lose the risk : benefit argument.

We fight the next war based on the last war's tactics and the data shows fewer than five rounds total in a gunfight; however, if a couple hi-cap mags are 'just as easy' to carry and employ, then there's not a good reason to do so.

Yep. While sitting by the fire in the mountains I have skipped a high cap 9 in the past and carried a 1911 with 7 rounds. 😳

I once forgot my extra mag too. 😱

And once, I braved the fire with just a knife and a shovel. 😬
 
I watch a lot of old Gunsmoke episodes. I often think about how those folks with single action six-shooters would have pined for even 7-round mags of 45 in 1911s, with one or more extra mags, as I watch them duck behind something to reload.

I'm with Mas on this one. My grab and go gun is a P320 Tacops with 21-rd mags. I really don't trust that 21st round to seat correctly, and I mostly have just one extra mag in the nylon holster I put in the truck, but that gives me 41 rounds.

As I've gotten older and less able to maneuver very quickly, I've gravitated to higher-capacity magazines.

When I learned to fly, oh 35 years ago, one instructor used to tell me over and over, "The altitude above you and the runway behind you is useless to you." I feel that way about empty chambers on revolvers and empty mags in semi-auto pistols.
 
I’m happy most Americans have the option to carry what they want. For a personal defense/anti-robbery role, which is the reason I carry, I prefer the j-frame in a pocket.

I avoid crowds and don’t go to dumb places at dumb times. My public “threat profile” is basically limited to gas stations and being in an office. Short barrels, deep concealment, and contact range function are more important.

At home, shotgun. It shoots nine “bullets” at once. It does that several times.

@Dan0311, you caught onto the one of the big issues with Mas. Reminds me of something Ron Spomer, another gunwriter, observed when talking about Elmer Keith’s handgun hunting feats—the distances seem to have gotten shorter and the par times seem to have gotten longer in the era of video cameras, accurate measurement tools, and the internet.

“We’re seeing” is the “people are saying” of firearms training—who is “we,” how are we compiling data, and how is it being compared to past data? If you can’t answer that, you aren’t observing a trend. It’s just speculation.

Mas as an “expert” never really made any sense.

He worked at a jewelry store, did magazine editing, and was a part-time cop in a small town before writing his first book. No career of documented first-hand experience with violence, no career of academic study. He shot matches with the local cops and taught pistol stuff to the local PD. His dad was in a shooting when Mas was either not yet born or a small child. That’s it.

In the Gravest Extreme was typical Mas stuff, which he’s made a career reiterating—non-controversial statements about settled deadly force law; basic information about how guns and bullets work; and some anecdotes about muggings. Almost every book he has written has followed suit. The same topics, discussed the same way, legitimized because he’s put it in print so many times.

Mas gets credibility for his “expert witness” experience. Witnesses are fact witnesses, impeachment/character witnesses, and experts. Experts offer opinions based on specific education or experience. It’s not fancy. An appraiser or auctioneer can be an “expert” on land valuation. A cab driver can be an “expert” on drive times within a city.

Ayoob’s “expert” testimony has included how “fast” a Glock can be shot at a close range (Kaur v. City of Lodi, demonstrated by filming himself shooting with a shot timer), how quickly a person could stab someone from six feet away (State v. Carey, demonstrated by filming himself lunging and stabbing a target), or—this one killed me—his understanding of post-traumatic responses to self-defense shootings (People v. Kreutzer, based on a past conversation he had with a psychologist about his patients. That was his “expert” data. A conversation about someone else’s observations.).

The man’s a great shooter, a great competitor, a good instructor, and he has a great voice. But, he built a career off publishing and teaching basic information, and his prolific republishing qualified him to be an “expert witness” on split times, the Tueller drill, and observations other people have told him about. He had the sheer luck of coming around in a time when the shooting sports and concealed carry were taking off and the internet didn't exist. He was able to build a legitimate career before consumers had easy access to the information needed to vet authors and instructors.

There’s no basis to give any credence to his statements about “trends” in multiple attacker scenarios. Wilson Combat just wants to sell double-stack guns.
 
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There’s no basis to give any credence to his statements about “trends” in multiple attacker scenarios.
He was a big help to me way back in 1988 when he pushed a 5 page story about me and my guns. I agree with and have shared your feelings stated above. He is a nice man..be he hasn't "seen the elephant". His ability to shoot is not what I would call Impressive...not to me anyway. His track record in court is good for sure, But I have always wondered why the opposing attorneys have not challenged is "credentials".
I think the shooting world watches him hoping that the possum on his head will one day jump off.
 
In the Gravest Extreme was typical Mas stuff, which he’s made a career reiterating—non-controversial statements about settled deadly force law; basic information about how guns and bullets work; and some anecdotes about muggings. Almost every book he has written has followed suit. The same topics, discussed the same way, legitimized because he’s put it in print so many times.

I don't want to get into an internet disagreement over Massad Ayoob, who can take care of himself anyway, but I do think you're dropping some important context here, and you're downplaying the merits of the book. There's a reason In The Gravest Extreme is still in print after 40-some years, and that's because Ayoob actually started working through the variety of non-controversial statements about settled deadly force law in a somewhat formalized way and presented them to average joes. When a lay writer puts together articles (the basis for the book) for lay readers, he probably shouldn't be trying to do cutting edge legal research.

The presentation of self-defense law in ITGE is rudimentary but very helpful; the discussions of guns in the store, guns in the home, guns on the street, good samaritans, machismo, etc are all totally on point. Ayoob's chapter on guns on the street, for example, actually focuses mainly not on gunfighting or mag capacity, but on de-escalation and the "don't do stupid things..." approach associated with Farnam. 40 years on, it's still solid stuff, and obviously still needs saying.

A fair bit of the material in ITGE is outdated, including Ayoob's presentation of the self-defense law material--his more recent Deadly Force book does a much better job of systematizing the material, and Branca's way of explaining it seems even clearer to me--but that's evidence that he's not just saying the same thing over and over. His approach has developed over time, and his presentation has gotten much better. I would say that maybe lawyers reading material on the law intended for lay people are going to tend to be underwhelmed.

Mas gets credibility for his “expert witness” experience. Witnesses are fact witnesses, impeachment/character witnesses, and experts. Experts offer opinions based on specific education or experience. It’s not fancy. An appraiser or auctioneer can be an “expert” on land valuation. A cab driver can be an “expert” on drive times within a city.

Ayoob’s “expert” testimony has included how “fast” a Glock can be shot at a close range (Kaur v. City of Lodi, demonstrated by filming himself shooting with a shot timer), how quickly a person could stab someone from six feet away (State v. Carey, demonstrated by filming himself lunging and stabbing a target), or—this one killed me—his understanding of post-traumatic responses to self-defense shootings (People v. Kreutzer, based on a past conversation he had with a psychologist about his patients. That was his “expert” data. A conversation about someone else’s observations.).

Well, that's three trials. How many trials do you think Ayoob has participated in? :)

More importantly, I think you are misconstruing the relevance of Ayoob's status as an expert witness. I do take seriously his role as an expert witness, but the line of thinking is NOT: hey, this guy is an expert witness, which means he's an expert, which means I should listen to him. The line of thinking is much more: hey, this guy has served as an expert witness on many trials (and is in the know on many, many other trials) and that gives him a pretty deep knowledge of how trials might actually go, what prosecutors might actually say or focus on, what might or might not be useful in a defense, and so on...so that when he talks about how the laws might be applied in real life, he probably has some idea what he's talking about.

Wilson Combat just wants to sell double-stack guns.
Whoa. Really? 😄

Gear change: I watched a video of Andy Stanford giving a talk at Tactical Response, where he spoke of his own training background. He started out, of course, as a Cooper disciple. Eventually, he talked about going to a class taught by Ayoob, where he sat sullenly reciting Ayoob's Gunsight nickname to himself (Massad the Boob) until he realized it was kind of juvenile to be closed off to listening to this guy, and the class wound up being a big step in his development. The point here is that Ayoob was recognized by the Gunsight mafia as a foe, because at least by 1984, Ayoob was publishing material that was deeply and accurately critical of Modern Technique views.

The whole Stressfire thing has been, to some extent, vindicated, of course, though not in all its details. Ayoob didn't invent isosceles (and he gives credit to police trainers who were teaching various versions of turret techniques), but he was certainly a player in getting it out there. He was writing, in 1984, that the speed rock was "madness," which wasn't something that Gunsight orthodoxy recognized until 2001, as far as I can tell. (Gabe Suarez eventually wrote against it in Tactical Pistol Marksmanship.) Ayoob may not have been a gunfighter, but he was an independent thinker who pushed civilian gun training forward in just the way he pushed civilian access to legal knowledge forward.

Sorry, this whole post went on much longer than I meant it to.
 
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Edited. Deleted another long post. I’m unnecessarily arguing about Mas’s experience and credentials. It’s not germane to the mag capacity commentary. Fair enough, he was a pioneer on self-defense basics pre-internet. I don’t need to beat a dead horse about his expertise, experience, methodologies, or how he attained his reputation. Sorry for typing reactively for no reason, @Moylan. Your points are well-taken.
 
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Like I said, Mas was lucky to have published basic information before it became easily accessible. That was valuable and groundbreaking at the time.
I think that "before it became easily accessible" thing was part of your edit to your original post, which wasn't visible to me when I was writing my essay. I think that inclusion decreases my initial level of disagreement with you.
My criticism of Mas as a gun industry personality is he has a “lane,” and he has zero scruples speculating way outside that lane to help his buddies sell guns. He’s not a lawyer. He’s not a psychologist. He’s not an academic. He’s not a criminologist. He was a magazine editor (first and foremost), an early competition guy, and a reserve cop with no “street combat” experience. He used publishing connections and second-hand accounts of others’ experiences to become America’s foremost expert on civilian deadly force.
That's legit--I'm a big believer in staying in one's lane, so I can't really object to this. Apart from saying, thank heavens he's not an academic. Nobody would have ever understood him. Anyway, I've been reading Ayoob's stuff since I first started getting interested in guns and such, although I think I only actually own 3 of his books. And I've seen a lot of videos of him teaching various things on youtube and such. And I, for one, have zero desire to buy a Wilson Combat pistol. So he needs to work harder at the salesmanship. 😄
 
Took a shooting class years ago. Part of it was walking back and forth across the firing line and firing at a couple of targets. I was amazed how quickly I emptied the Glock 23 I carried at the time.
 
I like Mas. He's got a lot going for him on a variety of perspectives. However, in the end his advice is just that: advice. It's not "law" or otherwise something written in stone.

I read/listen to an opinion and then I think about it and consider how it may apply (or not) to me.

There is no doubt, for example, that higher capacity magazines offer advantages. There are some detractors, though. But, as with everything we may discuss about the many aspects of carrying a firearm for self-defense, there are priorities and circumstances to consider in coming to decisions on what and how to carry what you end up with.

And we see this in many things. What handgun to carry. What caliber. What ammunition. Steel/polymer. Sights. Holsters. Belts. Magazines. Reloading. Quantities. And more. Certainly, let's not forget the politics involved in all this.

First, and foremost, if you want to carry a firearm for defense, is to actually HAVE a firearm. No firearm? Well, piles of ammunition, drawers of holsters, and boxes of high capacity magazines aren't going to do you much good.

And in what order to you prioritize all these things? Because the plain fact of life is that few people will buy a complete suite of equipment from handgun through magazines, ammunition, belt, holster, etc.

One thing is for certain, however...no matter HOW you prioritize things and no matter WHAT you end up getting, it's a sure bet that there will be SOMEONE out there who is going to criticize your decisions.

So make your own choices...preferably informed and wise ones. Train. Carry. And most importantly, be open minded to learning new, and accurate, information and adapting accordingly.
 
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One thing is for certain, however...no matter HOW you prioritize things and no matter WHAT you end up getting, it's a sure bet that there will be SOMEONE out there who is going to criticize your decisions.
So make your own choices...preferably informed and wise ones. Train. Carry. And most importantly, be open minded to learning new, and accurate, information and adapting accordingly.
We must all seek our own salvation.....Jim Higginbotham
 
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