Navy nuke sailors and stress/mental health

Chuckman

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@RetiredUSNChief , comments? I know I pick on nukes and bubble heads out of good-natured intraservice rivalry, but I respect the hell out of that field.

 
I do agree the nuke sailors are the brightest of the whole military services. I worked with hundreds who were recruited at our fiber optic plant in Claremont, NC. Our best technicians for electronics troubleshooting were recruited after the Navy downsized in the late 1990’s. Most came out of Charleston, SC.

The Army has a big suicide issue as well. I think the suicide issue has more to do with expectations from younger people in service as children are cuddled while in their teens by parents. Most young adults have never been under any pressure to complete task. The military is not for those who cannot handle stress. Personally being submerged in a dark, tight sub for 3-6 months would not be for me.
 
There's been a net 15% decrease in suicides in the military; surprisingly, the air force has the highest rate.

I would be curious as to gender and job, across all branches.
 
Suicide rate in the Army: 2020 was 36 per 100k, 2021 was 28.4 per 100k. National average is 13.4 per 100k.
The Marines had the second highest rates in 20220 and 2021.
 
it has been going on for years. When I was an officer onboard a SSBN in the late 80’s we had the Machinery Div CPO tell his Division Officer he did not know “whether to slit his wrists or…” when discussing the performance of the m-div.

There is immense pressure on nuclear trained personnel from qualifications to Reactor safeguard exams to maintenance. Plus always being first on and last off and having to maintain the reactor during shutdown means they work longer hours than the non-nuke personnel.
 
We had a nuke MM that unalived himself a few days before getting underway.
OD'd on the boat while in Holy Loch.
He was a major alcohol abuser during off crew.
He was ALWAYS a butthole and a loner.
 
Thanks @Chuckman

This will be long.


First, let me say that suicide is a very serious thing, something I'm sure we can all agree on.

Second, there's more to this than what's in the article. The article honestly doesn't point out anything significant at all, in my opinion. It reads just like every other article I've read on suicide, military or not. You can almost use it as a cookie cutter article; change a few details, and you've got another suicide article about another organization.

Suicide in MOST cases involves a crap ton of stress. For some people, there's also a chemical imbalance in there somewhere.


The Naval Nuclear Propulsion Program (NNPP) has ALWAYS been stressful. I'll talk a bit about why and then a bit about how it's different now than when I first joined in 1985.

The program is stressful because it requires a focused academic and hands-on training effort that spans about 2 years before going to your first sea going command. It is also stressful because of the program's focus on integrity and other related aspects.

There are, indeed, some challenging college level courses on things like heat transfer & fluid flow, reactor kinetics, reactor protection analysis, and some calculus level math involvement.

In-rate (meaning your professional rating, like electronics technician, machinest mate, electricians mate, etc) you'll also have gone through classes before the nuclear training part learning about basic electricity and electronics, electronics technician A-school, mechanic stuff, etc.

And, after all that is completed, you go to a Nuclear Power Training Unit (NPTU) and learn how to actually qualify as a nuclear operator on a real nuclear plant.


It is stressful because it's a no-sh*t REAL nuclear propulsion plant these people are training to become operators on.

This ain't the fry-cook at a fast food joint.

This ain't the espresso machine operator at Starbucks.

This ain't the clothing department at Kohl's.

It's f*cking nuclear propulsion plant.

You don't flip a switch without thinking about how it affects the plant.

You don't operate anything without the procedures AND understanding what the procedures do AND why the procedures are written the way they are.

The program is stressful because it HAS to be in order to both get the operators needed AND to weed out those who shouldn't be there in the first place. You cannot spend 4 years or more moving students sedately through a training program before the Navy can send a person to their first sea going command.


NOW...the difference between now and when I came in.

This article talks about 10 percent who don't make it through the program.

And THAT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

But it's NOT serious in the way you, or most other people, think it is.

When I was an instructor at NPTU Charleston, the attrition rate goal was single-digit. And that bothered me.

It bothered me because that's TO FRICKING LOW.

Care to guess what the attrition rate was for my class when I went through the program?

Take a guess.

If you guessed any number less than 50%, you were wrong.

That's right...half the people who started out in the nuclear pipeline from the time they enlisted as a nuke did not make it through the program.


I was in the last ET-A school to have nuke ETs in it at Great Lakes before it became an all nuke student school at Nuclear Power Training Command in Orlando. As a nuke, back then, attending ET-A school with non-nuclear ETs, if you weren't in the upper 10% at graduation, you weren't going to Nuke School.

At Nuke School, yes...you spend 5 days a week in class all day, about 8 hours a day. If you were weak in some academic area, you put in extra hours. 5, 10, 20, 30, whatever.

Lots of people bitched, to be sure. I didn't. Know why?

Because I had spent the last 3 1/2 years of my life attending Purdue University full time carrying 15 to 17 semester credit hours while working one job with 20 to 30 hours overtime each week PLUS two to three odd jobs year round.

Nuke school was 40 hours a week, sure...but also getting paid for it, having full medical and dental, and a roof over your head. Not busting your keister working another 40 to 80 hours a week or more on top of that to support yourself and pay for school.

Cry me a f***ing river if you have to put in some extra study time.


After that came prototype training, where you learned to qualify as a real operator on an actual nuclear plant.

Rotating shift work where I put in 11, 12, or 13 hour days for 7 days straight (depending on which shift) before getting a couple days off and rotating to the next shift.

Again...while getting paid for it.


And integrity was a huge deal. If you had too many tickets before you enlisted, you had to get a waiver. If you got too many speeding tickets while in the program, you were a risk and booted from the program.

If you had ANY integrity issue at all...lying, cheating, stealing, whatever...you were booted.

Drugs? Zero tolerance, nuke or not.


Every effort and opportunity was presented to get students through the program academically, but there were other reasons that could get you booted.


50% attrition then compared to 10% now.

There are a whole lot of people being pushed through the program WHO SHOULD NOT BE.

And THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM.


As an instructor I saw it. I brought it up. I got BS responses from the command about it.


Here's what happens in the real world:

Nuclear Field A School pushes every student they possibly can through to Nuclear Power School. Because a high attrition rate looks bad on them. The goal is low single digit, as low as possible.

Nuclear Power School gets these students and guess what they do? They push every possible student through EVEN THE ONES WHO SHOULDN'T HAVE MADE IT TO NPS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Heaven help them if their attrition numbers were higher than Nuclear Field A Schools, because then they must be doing something wrong.

Now you have students going to NPTU learning how to qualify on actual reactor plants and the goal, once again, is to get every possible student through.

And after that... these Sailors go to the fleet and they become the Fleet's problem.


See where I'm going here?


The NNPP is stressful and will ALWAYS be stressful. It's the nature of the beast and sugar coating it won't change that.

Yes, these people are truly among the most intelligent people you are likely to encounter as a group. But that also means you're going to have a higher rate of other problems for various reasons.

Refusing to recognize this and not dealing with it will result in more problems than there ought to otherwise be.

These people are, overall, used to being high achievers. Many are high achievers because they are "smarter than the average bear" and were never challenged. Dump them in with a group of high achievers and suddenly they're not such high achievers anymore and have to do something they've never had to do before. Namely WORK at it, because it no longer comes so easy.

That's a buttload of stress.

Add to this the fact that some come to the program with other obligations, like a family to support. Failing is "not an option" either. That's another buttload of stress.


And, like the rest of humanity, these people come from all kinds of backgrounds and with all kinds of baggage.

Some are *ssholes. Some maybe from bad families. Some made poor choices in marriage. Whatever.

Pushing people through the program without regard to all this, for whatever reason, does them no good.

Not working to get them straight in the head does them no good.

And it d*mn sure isn't doing the Fleet any good, either.
 
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Having seen the work hours that are expected of nuclear qualified sailors in the fleet and the apparent disregard that big Navy has for anyone's mental or physical well-being, suicide among sailors once they reach their first command is understandable.

I think Chief's observation is totally accurate; people who can't handle it need to be allowed to fail out of the program with relatively few consequences.

Every command that touches some part of the training pipeline is under tremendous pressure to do everything possible to move sailors through because the fleet is undermanned as a whole. No one is ready yet to address the attrition rate rooted in a poor work environment in the fleet.
 
@RetiredUSNChief , @GoWolfpack , thanks for your observations. That's why when I read the article I wanted your perspective.

My perspective: As @BlackGun pointed out, suicide in the military is an issue; a generally higher rate than compared to other 'jobs' and non-military cohorts. It's down compared to what it was, which is good, but still a problem.

Looking at it broadly, I see other programs (schools and rates) with high attrition which doesn't have the same problem (thinking, NSW, etc.) of suicide. The pipeline for my rate has 80% attrition, but almost all of that is in the first quarter of the pipeline, with most of it physical (ARS then, BRC now), and some academic (SOCM, dive school). Once you get through BRC and the med portion it's not 'easier' but you are physically stronger and most of the higher academic stuff is in the rearview mirror. Even BUDS/SEALs, you don't see the suicide rate jump. Which makes me think about what @Chdamn pointed out; we know the nuke school is incredibly difficult and attracts the best academic minds, the work is sooooooo different than what my pipeline (or BUDS) is like, and the type of student is different than what my pipeline attracts.

Once out of the pipeline and in the job, per @GoWolfpack points, is true, too. The actual job and schedule is relentless, probably more so than most other rates. Again, my perception. I have never been ship's company, but have heard that at sea or in port the watch and work is pretty hard.

For the military in general, it's a quandary. Above-average intelligence pretty much across the board for all branches, a difficult basic training/boot camp, in many cases a challenging school, then a job in which you have to grow up quick-like. Absolutely a lot of stress for a young person who may not have been stressed much before joining.

I do find it interesting that the highest rate of suicide is in the AF and second highest is Marines. I really would like to see the data by branch, job, sex, and education (i.e., enlisted vs officer).
 
The amount of stress and stupidity in our nation's commercial nuclear power plant fleet is crazy. I can only imagine that carries directly over to our military. We have a crisis of too many managers and too few qualified workers.
 
The amount of stress and stupidity in our nation's commercial nuclear power plant fleet is crazy. I can only imagine that carries directly over to our military. We have a crisis of too many managers and too few qualified workers.
Your comment reminds me of this joke:

“A Japanese company and a American company decided to have a canoe race on the St. Lawrence River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.
On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile. The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat.
A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing. So, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.
They advised that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.
To prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team’s management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager. They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder.
It was called the”Rowing Team Quality First Program“, with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices, and bonuses.
The next year the Japanese won by two miles. Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments in new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year’s racing team was outsourced to India.”
 
The military has a significantly larger suicide rate because that, too, is the nature of the beast.

The plain fact of the matter is that the military IS NOT THE SAME AS CIVILIAN LIFE...the life that everybody who enters the military comes from.

There's a paradigm shift that a lot of people just do not get...namely that you can be REQUIRED to place your life on the line and DIE in the performance of your duties.

I've talked to a lot of people who didn't like the military. Seen a lot of BS YouTube videos about people who hated it for one reason or another.

To be sure, there ARE a lot of BS issues in the military, and those who have served can likely list a number of them. And honestly...a lot of those issues are common place in the civilian world, too. The big difference, again, is your obligations aren't the same between the civilian world and the military world.

Don't like the fact that your boss is an *sshole? Well, guess what...there are just as many, if not more, *sshole bosses in the civilian world so your argument is invalid.

Don't like the fact that you can be deployed to the far corners of the world? Well, guess what...that's what the military does, it goes to where the problems are and not your home town where you can get weekends off and go out bar hopping with your buddies all the time.

Don't like the fact that the actual price tag for those education benefits suddenly soared after you signed on the dotted line and now you find yourself carrying a rifle and 80 pounds of kit in the sands of Khadzackaturdastan worrying about IEDs and insurgents all the time? What part of "you're in the military" did you not understand when you signed on the dotted line?


Many civilians have absolutely NO idea what they're getting into when they enlist. And many who do suddenly find themselves at odds with a lifestyle that really isn't what they were brought up with at all.

Like...you've not got to be where you're supposed to be ON TIME and EVERY TIME. None of this "I was only 5 minutes late, what's the big deal" BS.

Like...now you find out that there really ARE serious consequences to talking back to authority. To not being physically fit. To failing to perform to standards. To not doing what you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do it.

Like...now you find out that getting in trouble with civilian authorities will ALSO land you in hot water with military authorities as well.

Like...OpSec is a real thing and you can't just go around posting all kinds of information willy-nilly on social media and whatnot.

Like...people will actually expect you to be not only responsible for everything you do, but responsible for those under you as well.


Life is going to be exponentially MORE difficult and stressful for people like this and that will drive the suicide rate significantly higher than it should otherwise be.


That kid, for example, who posted a video of himself crying and breaking down at Starbucks because he had to actually WORK and 8 hour day on top of being misgendered should wash out of the military at the earliest possible point. Preferably at MEPS, and certainly at boot camp.

And, while that is an obviously extreme example, there are plenty of people out there nowhere near this level of personal and social ineptitude who ought not be in the military at all, NNPP pipeline or not.
 
While not nuclear related, I was an instructor in usaf computer maintenance. Before I got them students had 6 weeks electronic principles and 11 weeks computer fundamentals. I taught the first 4 1/2 weeks of the 22 week portion on actual mainframe and peripherals.

The portion of the course prior to me was very much "read, remember, regurgitate "; focused on rote memorization far more than compreshnsion and application. The staff were almost entirely focused on throughput; just pass them through. Completion rates were in the upper 90's and student scores on tests ran around 92% for the first 18 weeks.

I taught the first 3 blocks of our portion, covering the system architecture and operations; hardware layout, machine language programming, microcode, and troubleshooting; and system serial to parallel interface (rs-232), peripheral interface and troubleshooting.

I had the highest failure rate and lowest class averages in the entire course because we transitioned from memorization to application and synthesis in the first week. A great many of those who failed my first block should have washed out in their first month. Since they were now 18 +1 weeks in at their first failure, I had to defend myself for every one. In addition, when they buckled down and passed through first block on the second try, they were almost guaranteed to fail the 3rd block of our portion as it was considered by the staff to be the hardest in the course. People who should have been weeded out before now had an additional 3 weeks behind them, and I had to justify wasting all that time to remove them.

We were able to drop the most egregious cases of unsuitable students, but there were a few who the branch chief (0-4 or 5) refused to boot.

We did no favors to people by letting them progress to a point where they were SO far over their heads; we did have several people who requested to drop; several who wound up medically discharged after expressing suicidal ideation.

There is a process for the receiving units to provide feedback on new trainees. I kept the records for our course, and was involved in writing replies to hq training command when we got complaints. Every complaint we got in 4 years I was there was someone the head shed kept over our recommendations.

Fix problems as soon as you detect them; don't pass them on to get worse. One of these days the military (and society) will figure this out.

I'm NOT holding my breath.
 
The military has a significantly larger suicide rate because that, too, is the nature of the beast.

The plain fact of the matter is that the military IS NOT THE SAME AS CIVILIAN LIFE...the life that everybody who enters the military comes from.

There's a paradigm shift that a lot of people just do not get...namely that you can be REQUIRED to place your life on the line and DIE in the performance of your duties.

.......

Many civilians have absolutely NO idea what they're getting into when they enlist. And many who do suddenly find themselves at odds with a lifestyle that really isn't what they were brought up with at all.
.......
And, while that is an obviously extreme example, there are plenty of people out there nowhere near this level of personal and social ineptitude who ought not be in the military at all, NNPP pipeline or not.
I wish I could like this twice... or three times....
 
Let’s not discount a high percentage of those enlisting come from single parent homes, bad parent homes, and typically did not excel in school. Most of their high school classmates went on to college the last 3 decades. Now I will also say those who chose a military path got a much better education in fields than any university or community college would ever give, especially in the Navy and Air Force. Those who transitioned out are more coveted by high tech companies. From articles I have seen regarding military suicide I noticed most have been under 25 years old who have not been in a war zone.
 
Let’s not discount a high percentage of those enlisting come from single parent homes, bad parent homes, and typically did not excel in school. Most of their high school classmates went on to college the last 3 decades. Now I will also say those who chose a military path got a much better education in fields than any university or community college would ever give, especially in the Navy and Air Force. Those who transitioned out are more coveted by high tech companies. From articles I have seen regarding military suicide I noticed most have been under 25 years old who have not been in a war zone.

Civilian employers love hiring people with military experience if for no other reason than they know those people showed up for work ALL THE TIME while in the military.

Reliability counts for a lot when people are looking to hire someone, as much if not more than experience.

Companies will often quite happily train the people they hire...indeed, even if you have a solid education and background in what you're being hired for, you'll likely still have to go through training with the company to get you up to speed with their processes. Knowing you're going to be worth the investment because you're going to come in on time every day makes you a more attractive hire.


And yes...I believe you are correct about the significance of the spread of ages and experiences amongst military suicides.

And I'd also like to point out that there is a portion of military suicides which have nothing to do with the military. I'm thinking specifically those who have broken relationships that have nothing to do with the military and everything to do with the person they married literally taking everything away from them that really means anything to them.

But that's a subject for another thread.
 
Civilian employers love hiring people with military experience if for no other reason than they know those people showed up for work ALL THE TIME while in the military.

Reliability counts for a lot when people are looking to hire someone, as much if not more than experience.

Companies will often quite happily train the people they hire...indeed, even if you have a solid education and background in what you're being hired for, you'll likely still have to go through training with the company to get you up to speed with their processes. Knowing you're going to be worth the investment because you're going to come in on time every day makes you a more attractive hire.


And yes...I believe you are correct about the significance of the spread of ages and experiences amongst military suicides.

And I'd also like to point out that there is a portion of military suicides which have nothing to do with the military. I'm thinking specifically those who have broken relationships that have nothing to do with the military and everything to do with the person they married literally taking everything away from them that really means anything to them.

But that's a subject for another thread.
The military doesn’t give shit if you have relationship issues or children issues. They will put you on the boat or send you off to a distant country without a care in the world. There will be no extended family to console you, only an officer who expects results. And yes that is what you signed up facing but nobody expects to experience issues in family dynamics. I’ve known a few young men who got those messages the wife moved with the kids while deployed. That is just a cold brutal disgusting way to treat someone. One of those guys took pills, not to kill himself but to get back to the states. That’s just one example where military prohibits someone from handling a situation civilian life would allow handling affairs.
 
Civilian employers love hiring people with military experience if for no other reason than they know those people showed up for work ALL THE TIME while in the military.

Reliability counts for a lot when people are looking to hire someone, as much if not more than experience.

Companies will often quite happily train the people they hire...indeed, even if you have a solid education and background in what you're being hired for, you'll likely still have to go through training with the company to get you up to speed with their processes. Knowing you're going to be worth the investment because you're going to come in on time every day makes you a more attractive hire.

Reliability, trainability, understands systems and organizations, understands chain of command, goal oriented....

The military doesn’t give shit if you have relationship issues or children issues. They will put you on the boat or send you off to a distant country without a care in the world. There will be no extended family to console you, only an officer who expects results. And yes that is what you signed up facing but nobody expects to experience issues in family dynamics. I’ve known a few young men who got those messages the wife moved with the kids while deployed. That is just a cold brutal disgusting way to treat someone. One of those guys took pills, not to kill himself but to get back to the states. That’s just one example where military prohibits someone from handling a situation civilian life would allow handling affairs.

US Navy: "if we wanted you to have a wife we would have issued one in your seabag."

The Marines, several times, tried to make it so first term enlistees were single and would not/could not be married.

18 year olds marrying other 18 year olds, babies having babies. It's hell on relationships.
 
The military has a significantly larger suicide rate because that, too, is the nature of the beast.

The plain fact of the matter is that the military IS NOT THE SAME AS CIVILIAN LIFE...the life that everybody who enters the military comes from.

There's a paradigm shift that a lot of people just do not get...namely that you can be REQUIRED to place your life on the line and DIE in the performance of your duties.

I've talked to a lot of people who didn't like the military. Seen a lot of BS YouTube videos about people who hated it for one reason or another.

To be sure, there ARE a lot of BS issues in the military, and those who have served can likely list a number of them. And honestly...a lot of those issues are common place in the civilian world, too. The big difference, again, is your obligations aren't the same between the civilian world and the military world.

Don't like the fact that your boss is an *sshole? Well, guess what...there are just as many, if not more, *sshole bosses in the civilian world so your argument is invalid.

Don't like the fact that you can be deployed to the far corners of the world? Well, guess what...that's what the military does, it goes to where the problems are and not your home town where you can get weekends off and go out bar hopping with your buddies all the time.

Don't like the fact that the actual price tag for those education benefits suddenly soared after you signed on the dotted line and now you find yourself carrying a rifle and 80 pounds of kit in the sands of Khadzackaturdastan worrying about IEDs and insurgents all the time? What part of "you're in the military" did you not understand when you signed on the dotted line?


Many civilians have absolutely NO idea what they're getting into when they enlist. And many who do suddenly find themselves at odds with a lifestyle that really isn't what they were brought up with at all.

Like...you've not got to be where you're supposed to be ON TIME and EVERY TIME. None of this "I was only 5 minutes late, what's the big deal" BS.

Like...now you find out that there really ARE serious consequences to talking back to authority. To not being physically fit. To failing to perform to standards. To not doing what you're supposed to do when you're supposed to do it.

Like...now you find out that getting in trouble with civilian authorities will ALSO land you in hot water with military authorities as well.

Like...OpSec is a real thing and you can't just go around posting all kinds of information willy-nilly on social media and whatnot.

Like...people will actually expect you to be not only responsible for everything you do, but responsible for those under you as well.


Life is going to be exponentially MORE difficult and stressful for people like this and that will drive the suicide rate significantly higher than it should otherwise be.


That kid, for example, who posted a video of himself crying and breaking down at Starbucks because he had to actually WORK and 8 hour day on top of being misgendered should wash out of the military at the earliest possible point. Preferably at MEPS, and certainly at boot camp.

And, while that is an obviously extreme example, there are plenty of people out there nowhere near this level of personal and social ineptitude who ought not be in the military at all, NNPP pipeline or not.

This is all very true. And there is a lot of blame to spread around; to the military and 'false advertising' and sketchy recruiting to make quota, to the individual not doing his/her homework, to parents who are advising them based on their own set of assumptions and biases.

We all see the people to get in who never should have gotten in, whether for behavioral, intelligence, or physical reasons. That said, they also keep out plenty of kids who would join but have issues that aren't waiverable outside of wartime conditions (i.e., inhaler use, cholesterol meds, etc.).

It is true that the military is a whole 'nother life and experience, and all too often people want to 'make it like civilian life/work,' and the inherent nature of the job is, it can never be like 'civilian life/work.'
 
An increasing number of people treat the military the same as any other job. They expect to be treated fairly and if they aren't they'll leave at the first opportunity. Of course in the civilian world if your boss is a jerk and you just stop showing up the worst that'll happen is you stop getting paid. In the military penalties range from the same, not getting paid, to going to prison for a felony.


I think this attitude upsets people for whom the military is or was much more than just a job. I think this is a reality that many senior leaders across the whole military are struggling with. For a huge number of people being in the military is just another job they had for a few years, and one that they hated more than others.
 
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