Need advice on trusts and converting pistol ARs to SBRs

MrBitey

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I'd like to get ahead of the wave and register my pistol ARs as SBRs. I have a lot of questions.

- From other threads, it seems worthwhile to put these in a trust. What's the best (hopefully online) trust to use?
- I'm thinking one trust per item, since that could make it easier to sell an item. Is that the way to go?
- I have a receiver set (lower/upper) sitting on a shelf that I'll likely want to use with a short barrel. Can I / should I go ahead and file that as an SBR?

Related, I have a few suppressors that I bought without trusts. I don't think I'd ever sell one, but it seems prudent to put them in a trust. Just mentioning that in case that affects the choice of trust. I'd like to find a simple solution that covers everything.
 
Take a look at https://thetrustshop.net/nfa-gun-trust
I did my own, but will probably transition to their form.
I have each suppressor on its own trust, plan to have each sbr on its own trust as well. Max flexibility.
Moving your suppressors from you to a trust will require a transfer and related tax.
 
Not going to try to talk you out of it…but what makes it seem worthwhile? And why would it make them easier to sell?

And why move the existing ones (at $200/each) Into a trust?
 
Not going to try to talk you out of it…but what makes it seem worthwhile? And why would it make them easier to sell?

And why move the existing ones (at $200/each) Into a trust?
I'm probably misinformed, and also entangling issues that are better handled separately.

Here's where I'm at. I have suppressors that I bought as an individual instead of in a trust, and I've been second guessing that decision. Everyone seems to be using a trust these days. But I doubt I'd ever sell them and I don't have anyone who needs access to them. Reading about "what happens with NFA items when you die" and also "how to sell an NFA item", it looks like I don't really need a trust for the suppressors. Same should hold true for SBRs if I go down that path.

So back on the original topic, my concern is that the ATF will ban pistol braces as discussed in many other threads. So why not go ahead and file a Form 1 to make it an SBR? My braced pistols are range toys, never travel out of state, but I don't want them disassembled while waiting for approval after some arbitrary ATF ruling. Does that make sense?

Again, looking for advice as this is all pretty new to me.
 
Trust may be the right way to go, but I just wanted you to talk through it. As you alluded to, lots of people have bad info, so I just wanted to know your reasoning. For the record, all of mine are registered to trusts…and I even paid to move two from individual to one of my trusts.

You asked in the first post “can I go ahead” and that answer is “yes”. The “should I go ahead” is up to you.

Just disassembling them during the wait isn’t necessarily a solution. If you have all the parts to make an SBR, and no other legal way to use them, you have an SBR in the eyes of the ATF. Having a single registered lower would open up the door to owning all the short uppers you wanted to.
 
Hope you guys don’t mind me stepping in. So I built an AR pistol sometime back. And am in the same situation as Mr Bitey. I really love this AR and want to own it legally if the time comes to have to deal with this. I carry it on the farm all the time as it fits perfectly in the side by side. So I guess my question is this. Can I do the Form 1 now to register it if it is already built? And does it behoove me to do a trust as well. I have had firearms my whole life but this stuff is confusing the heck out of me and I simply want to do it right. I’m a career government employee and can’t afford to get in trouble over it. Also I do intend to by suppressors for certain rifles. Should I already have a trust in place before I purchase them?
 
Sure, you could do it now.... of course ATF could do the same BS they did on suppressors and claim that since you didn't form the receiver using home processed bauxite it's invalidly registered, but let's put their asshattery aside....

There's no reason I can think of that makes what you propose illegal or unwise.

Yes, you will need a trust before you buy any suppressors.
 
Hope you guys don’t mind me stepping in. So I built an AR pistol sometime back. And am in the same situation as Mr Bitey. I really love this AR and want to own it legally if the time comes to have to deal with this. I carry it on the farm all the time as it fits perfectly in the side by side. So I guess my question is this. Can I do the Form 1 now to register it if it is already built? And does it behoove me to do a trust as well. I have had firearms my whole life but this stuff is confusing the heck out of me and I simply want to do it right. I’m a career government employee and can’t afford to get in trouble over it. Also I do intend to by suppressors for certain rifles. Should I already have a trust in place before I purchase them?
Today it is legally a pistol. File a form one for it, and making will involve adding a real stock once you get the stamp back.

edit: you need to submit the trust paperwork with the form 1 or form 4, so yes you create the trust first.
 
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Today it is legally a pistol. File a form one for it, and making will involve adding a real stock once you get the stamp back.

edit: you need to submit the trust paperwork with the form 1 or form 4, so yes you create the trust first.
Sure, you could do it now.... of course ATF could do the same BS they did on suppressors and claim that since you didn't form the receiver using home processed bauxite it's invalidly registered, but let's put their asshattery aside....

There's no reason I can think of that makes what you propose illegal or unwise.

Yes, you will need a trust before you buy any suppressors.

Perfect. I just spent the past hour reading on the trust shop. Things make a lot more sense now. Thanks for the help.
 
I say SBR 2 lowers (the old rule 2 is 1 and 1 is none is why I say SBR 2 of them). Any uppers under the required 16” minimum the become uppers for those 2 SBR lowers and the rest of you non-SBR lowers get fitted with 16” or longer uppers.

As to putting other things in a Trust … it’s good for “family” future ownership changes … your kids or such inherit them with no transfer problems (you pay for the stamp and stuff now rather than they do later) since they would be part of the trust and legally able to possess.
 
I'm leaning towards using this site. They advise using paper Form 1 vs. eForm 1. Any thoughts on that?
 
I'm leaning towards using this site. They advise using paper Form 1 vs. eForm 1. Any thoughts on that?
1. eForms take as long as regular forms: eForms are around 7 months, paper is over a year. Their first point is wrong, times are not equivalent.
2. Is scaremongering. You are connecting to *their* computer, and the computers linked to it- their government network. That's what the warning applies to.
3. I've heard of the ATF letting people correct paper forms instead of refusing them, but they don't always do that, and don't have to.

@BigWaylon am I missing anything here?
 
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1. eForms take as long as regular forms: eForms are around 7 months, paper is over a year. Their first point is wrong, times are not equivalent.
2. Is scaremongering. You are connecting to *their* computer, and the computers linked to it- their government network. That's what the warning applies to.
3. I've heard of the ATF letting people correct paper forms instead of refusing them, but they don't always do that, and don't have to.

@BigWaylon am I missing anything here?
Completely disagree on #1. An eForm 1 is waaaaaaaay quicker than an eForm 4 at this point. Still under two months at this point for an eF1.

The only reason I can see for a paper F1 is if you absolutely must have a real stamp instead of a watermarked stamp on a PDF.
 
Do you have to get an SBR lower engraved?
Yes and no.

Assuming you’re talking about a Form 1 SBR where you’re the Maker (not Manufacturer), certain information has to be marked on the firearm. What that information is depends on what firearm/non-firearm (like an 80% lower) you started with, what’s already marked, and what’s on the Form 1. Most of the info can actually be on the frame, receiver, barrel or pistol slide (if applicable).

So in most cases, you could actually not engrave the lower at all, and engrave the barrel instead…but the firearm itself has to be properly marked when in an NFA configuration.
 
have a receiver set (lower/upper) sitting on a shelf that I'll likely want to use with a short barrel
I'd recommend throwing some spare parts on it and make sure they work and are in spec before you go through the headache that is the nfa process.
 
I'd recommend throwing some spare parts on it and make sure they work and are in spec before you go through the headache that is the nfa process.
great point right here
not everything works with everything.
 
I'm going to set up a trust soon, then move my current individual items over (about 5, tho 2 are still "pending"). My efile form 1 for my SBR took 95 days. I'm currently above 200 for my efile form 4 which was submitted the same time as my form 1. My paper form 4 is coming up on it's year anniversary (October 26th). If you have a family, and they will be inheriting your firearms, I think a trust is the best route... it saves so many headaches. I'm hoping the efile system speeds up soon, because once my trust is set up I've got a few more cans to pick up. lol.
 
I have SBRs and other NFA stuff. The vast majority of it is registered to me not to a trust. I have a trust that I used back when the CLEO signature was required just because it was easier (I could get the CLEO signature where I lived but the trust removed that headache plus fingerprints and photos). Since that changed I started registering everything to myself instead of the trust.

When I bought my first MG I couldn't register it to the trust because at the time owning a MG in NC still required a permit from the sheriff in addition to the stamp. The general feeling was that the sheriff couldn't issue the permit to a trust. I have no idea whether or not that was technically true but just to make the whole process easier I registered it as an individual. My sheriff, while perfectly willing to give me said permit, had never issued one before and I didn't want to make things more complicated. As it was I already had to write out the permit, he just had his secretary copy/paste what I wrote to letterhead and he signed it. Apparently there is no official form for that. ATF accepted it, so I suppose all was good.

Anyway, after that I didn't register anything for a while. Then the changes happened and I had to get fingerprints and photos for everyone on a trust if registered that way. The main advantage of a trust, IMO, is the ability of other people on the trust to use the items without the grantor being present. That isn't an issue for me. My wife doesn't go to the range without me and my only child old enough to go to the range by himself lives several states away so he never has access to my NFA stuff anyway except when he is visiting. So, now I just register everything to me.

When I die the executor of my estate can possess everything while waiting for transfers to occur. Whether that is to a trust or to my kids individually they can work out then.

As for resale of NFA items, except for machineguns there really isn't much of a market. Some rare factory SBRs or SBSs or a DD might have a used market but overall no one wants to pay a $200 (or $400 for two transfers if going out of state) tax on someone's used suppressor or home build SBR. Don't worry about resale, that isn't an issue.

I feel like having a separate trust for every NFA item would be a paperwork nightmare and I don't see any particular advantage to doing so. YMMV.
 
Just to make sure everyone is aware. Even without a trust, they transfer tax free to your legal heir.

So if you have items currently registered as an individual, but want to create a trust for future items, you could leave the first items as-is and just name the trust as the heir in your will. That way nothing changes now, and then when you’re gone everything is bundled together. 😎

…and if you don’t have an heir, you can put down my trust name. 😁
 
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Just to make sure everyone is aware. Even without a trust, they transfer tax free to your legal heir.

So if you have items currently registered as an individual, but want to create a trust for future items, you could leave the first items as-is and just name the trust as the heir in your will. That way nothing changes now, and then when you’re gone everything is bundled together. 😎

…and if you don’t have an heir, you can put down my trust name. 😁

I didn't know that. That's great info.
 
I didn't know that. That's great info.
I almost quoted your “saves so many headaches” and posted that…😁

I ask questions like I do because I hear so many things here, and on AR15, and at gun shows/shops that are either wrong, or just incomplete, that I want somebody to talk it through so we can get to the bottom of it. It’s rarely to start an argument, or say I’d do it differently…but mainly to make sure the “why” is actually based on correct info. 👍🏼
 
I almost quoted your “saves so many headaches” and posted that…😁

I ask questions like I do because I hear so many things here, and on AR15, and at gun shows/shops that are either wrong, or just incomplete, that I want somebody to talk it through so we can get to the bottom of it. It’s rarely to start an argument, or say I’d do it differently…but mainly to make sure the “why” is actually based on correct info. 👍🏼

There's more than just what happens when I pass away... I have four boys, and I'd like them to be able to use my NFA items when they are older without me being present. They are all well trained in firearm safety, etc, and i have no doubt they'll want to use some of the cans and SBRs when they are older. But the info you provided does allow me some relief and takes the 'pressure' off so to speak in the meantime.

I figure the trust vs individual debate is very similar to the will vs will/trust estate debate. In my experience trusts can be very useful, especially after death, but it's not the only way, and there are pros and cons to both.
 
So in most cases, you could actually not engrave the lower at all, and engrave the barrel instead…but the firearm itself has to be properly marked when in an NFA configuration.
The tax stamp still goes with the lower receiver, is that correct?

So if you have items currently registered as an individual, but want to create a trust for future items, you could leave the first items as-is and just name the trust as the heir in your will. That way nothing changes now, and then when you’re gone everything is bundled together. 😎
This is interesting. That seems to eliminate any need for me to move suppressors into the trust since I don't plan to have anyone else as a responsible person on the trust.
 
I say SBR 2 lowers (the old rule 2 is 1 and 1 is none is why I say SBR 2 of them). Any uppers under the required 16” minimum the become uppers for those 2 SBR lowers and the rest of you non-SBR lowers get fitted with 16” or longer uppers.

As to putting other things in a Trust … it’s good for “family” future ownership changes … your kids or such inherit them with no transfer problems (you pay for the stamp and stuff now rather than they do later) since they would be part of the trust and legally able to possess.
Why would they be paying for stamps later? All that stuff transfers tax free on a form 5.

Personally I dont see the need for trusts unless you have someone you wan to use your stuff in your absence. I dont ever do that or even consider it something i'd ever want to do. I have found that others dont have the same respect for my stuff that I do. Call me kooky.
 
Just to make sure everyone is aware. Even without a trust, they transfer tax free to your legal heir.

So if you have items currently registered as an individual, but want to create a trust for future items, you could leave the first items as-is and just name the trust as the heir in your will. That way nothing changes now, and then when you’re gone everything is bundled together. 😎

…and if you don’t have an heir, you can put down my trust name. 😁
I learned about BW's first stament when I had a will drawn up, relieved my mind for my girls.
 
Yes and no.

Assuming you’re talking about a Form 1 SBR where you’re the Maker (not Manufacturer), certain information has to be marked on the firearm. What that information is depends on what firearm/non-firearm (like an 80% lower) you started with, what’s already marked, and what’s on the Form 1. Most of the info can actually be on the frame, receiver, barrel or pistol slide (if applicable).

So in most cases, you could actually not engrave the lower at all, and engrave the barrel instead…but the firearm itself has to be properly marked when in an NFA configuration.
Did a form 1 on an existing Spike’s lower to convert from it’s current pistol config to an SBR in order to not be limited to a brace.
 
Did a form 1 on an existing Spike’s lower to convert from it’s current pistol config to an SBR in order to not be limited to a brace.
Ok, so serial number is covered.

You need to add Maker’s name, plus the City & State where the firearm is made. That can be on the receiver or barrel.

The caliber also has to be marked. That’s usually on the barrel. So even if the lower says “multi” you’re covered.

I did have one build where the lower said multi, and I was chopping down a longer barrel and lost the markings, so that on that one I had to engrave caliber as well.
 
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So does multi on the receiver count as marked for any upper, or does it have to be a specific caliber (which can be marked on barrel when configured)?
 
So does multi on the receiver count as marked for any upper, or does it have to be a specific caliber (which can be marked on barrel when configured)?
Multi isn’t a caliber.

You have to have the specific caliber engraved when it’s assembled. Usually not a big deal due to most barrels being marked.

And years ago the ATF would allow “multi” on the Form 1, but now you have to provide a specific caliber. That only makes sense, as when you make an SBR (a one-time act) it can only be a single caliber.
 
Can you still change the upper/caliber later?
Yep.

Doesn’t have to match the Form 1.

But it does need to be properly marked when in an NFA configuration.
 
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Ok, so serial number is covered.

You need to add Maker’s name, plus the City & State where the firearm is made. That can be on the receiver or barrel.

The caliber also has to be marked. That’s usually on the barrel. So even if the lower says “multi” you’re covered.

I did have one build where the lower said multi, and I was chopping down a longer barrel and lost the markings, so that on that one I had to engrave caliber as well.

The new CFR that came out in August doesn't allow for barrel marking of makers marks any more. Some interesting stuff here. The barrel as an option for name, city and state is gone. ..

§ 479.102 Identification of firearms.
(a) Identification required. Except as otherwise provided in this section, you, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:

(1) Serial number, name, place of business. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or otherwise placed on the frame or receiver thereof, an individual serial number, in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The serial number must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. The frame or receiver must also be marked with either: Your name (or recognized abbreviation), and city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where you as a manufacturer or importer maintain your place of business, or in the case of a maker, where you made the firearm; or if a manufacturer or importer, your name (or recognized abbreviation) and the serial number that begins with your abbreviated Federal firearms license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., “12345678-[unique identification number]”; and

(2) Model, caliber or gauge, foreign manufacturer, country of manufacture. By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver, or barrel or pistol slide (if applicable) thereof certain additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed. The additional information shall include:

(i) The model, if such designation has been made;

(ii) The caliber or gauge;

(iii) When applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker; and

(iv) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in which it was manufactured. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.

(3) Multi-piece frame or receiver. In the case of a multi-piece frame or receiver, the modular subpart that is the outermost housing or structure designed to house, hold, or contain either the primary energized component of a handgun, breech blocking or sealing component of a projectile weapon other than a handgun, or internal sound reduction component of a firearm muffler or firearm silencer, as the case may be, shall be the subpart of a multi-piece frame or receiver identified in accordance with this section. If more than one subpart is similarly designed to house, hold, or contain such primary component (e.g., left and right halves), each of those subparts must be identified with the same serial number and associated licensee information not duplicated on any other frame or receiver. The identified subpart(s) of a complete (assembled or unassembled) multi-piece frame or receiver shall not be removed and replaced (see § 478.34 of this subchapter, 18 U.S.C. 922(k), and 26 U.S.C. 5861(g) and (h)), unless -

(i) The subpart replacement is not a firearm under 26 U.S.C. 5845;

(ii) The subpart replacement is identified by the qualified manufacturer of the original subpart with the same serial number and associated licensee information in the manner prescribed by this section; and

(iii) The original subpart is destroyed under the manufacturer's control or direct supervision prior to such placement.

(4) Frame or receiver, machine gun conversion part, or silencer part disposed of separately. Each part defined as a frame or receiver or modular subpart thereof described in paragraph (a)(3) of this section, machinegun, or firearm muffler or firearm silencer that is not a component part of a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you must be identified as required by this section with an individual serial number not duplicated on any other firearm and all additional identifying information, except that the model designation and caliber or gauge may be omitted if that information is unknown at the time the part is identified.

(5) Size and depth of markings. The engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number and additional information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch, and the serial number and any associated license number in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. The size of the serial and license number is measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of the character impression bottoms (bases). The depth of all markings required by this section is measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.

(6) Period of time to identify firearms. You, as a manufacturer, shall identify a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the weapon or device, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. You must identify each part or modular subpart defined as a machine gun (frame or receiver, or conversion part) or muffler or silencer that is not a component part of a complete weapon or complete muffler or silencer device at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of no later than close of the next business day following the date the entire manufacturing process has ended for the part, or prior to disposition, whichever is sooner. For purposes of this paragraph, firearms awaiting materials, parts, or equipment repair to be completed are presumed, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, to be in the manufacturing process. Importers must identify imported firearms within the period prescribed in § 478.112 of this subchapter.

(7) Meaning of marking terms. For purposes of this section, the term “identify” means placing marks of identification, the terms “legible” and “legibly” mean that the identification markings (including any unique identification number) use exclusively Roman letters (e.g., A, a, B, b, C, c) and Arabic numerals (e.g., 1, 2, 3), or solely Arabic numerals, and may include a hyphen, and the terms “conspicuous” and “conspicuously” mean that the identification markings are capable of being easily seen with the naked eye during normal handling of the firearm and are unobstructed by other markings when the complete weapon or device is assembled.

(b) Exceptions -

(1) Alternate means of identification. The Director may authorize other means of identification to identify firearms upon receipt of a letter application or prescribed form from you showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

(2) Destructive devices. In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize other means of identification to identify that weapon upon receipt of a letter application or prescribed form from you. The application shall show that engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon as required by this section would be dangerous or impracticable and that the alternate means of identification proposed will not hinder the effective administration of this part.
 
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Yep.

Doesn’t have to match the Form 1.

But it does need to be properly marked when in an NFA configuration.

So… an SBR lower can be marked multi, but the form 1 has a specific caliber, which doesn’t actually mean anything because any caliber is ok on the upper as long as the caliber is engraved on the upper (normally barrel).

If the lower is marked with a caliber, that removes the need to have uppers/barrels marked with that caliber. If the lower is marked 5.56 can I put an upper with a 300BLK marked barrel? (the 5.56 lower marking is ignored/overridden by the upper marking)

This is confusing.

How accessible/visible does the caliber marking have to be. Most of my barrels are marked inside the handguard and are hard to find/read.
 
So… an SBR lower can be marked multi, but the form 1 has a specific caliber, which doesn’t actually mean anything because any caliber is ok on the upper as long as the caliber is engraved on the upper (normally barrel).

If the lower is marked with a caliber, that removes the need to have uppers/barrels marked with that caliber. If the lower is marked 5.56 can I put an upper with a 300BLK marked barrel? (the 5.56 lower marking is ignored/overridden by the upper marking)

This is confusing.

How accessible/visible does the caliber marking have to be. Most of my barrels are marked inside the handguard and are hard to find/read.
It has to have a caliber marking somewhere on the receiver or barrel. Most modern barrels are marked already . If its on the barrel it doesn't have to be on the receiver ( frame ) .

Its supposed to be visible. No one cares is the most accurate answer.
 
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