Nitrogen filled tires

Is nitrogen worth the effort?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 2.6%

  • No

    Votes: 37 97.4%
  • Total voters
    38
Frack N Cylons

Frack N Cylons

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My new car came with nitrogen filled tires. I get the purported benefits, but it seems like a pain in the ass. There are not any nitrogen fill stations near me that I’ve found.

I try to be pretty self sufficient when it comes to vehicles and this erodes that.

So what are your thoughts? I’m leaning towards disregarding it and filling at home with good old atmosphere.
 
Les White said:
The idea is that nitrogen molecules are too large to pass through the rubber in the tires. Seems reasonable. Atmosphere is 78% nitrogen, therein lies the scam.
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Beat me to it. But doesn’t that mean, as you constantly fill up tires, it will eventually be all nitrogen, as the oxygen leaks out first?
 
The reason for nitrogen filled tires is that nitrogen does not change pressure in the tire like air will. Air will change 5 to 10 psi during normal driving conditions and summer to winter temps. We don't see the temps it would take for nitrogen to react to the temp change.

Do I use nitrogen nope, but I also have a compressor on my truck. I use nitrogen for accumulators
 
heavydoc said:
The reason for nitrogen filled tires is that nitrogen does not change pressure in the tire like air will. Air will change 5 to 10 psi during normal driving conditions and summer to winter temps. We don't see the temps it would take for nitrogen to react to the temp change.

Do I use nitrogen nope, but I also have a compressor on my truck. I use nitrogen for accumulators
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What Heavydoc said

On a street car - no

on a track car then yes
 
Theoretically if you got new tires and filled them up with atmosphere you would have 78% nitrogen in your tires. Assuming that all the other gases in atmosphere leak out of your tires over the next year do you have 100% nitrogen left in your tires. You air back up with atmosphere and replace the missing 22% with 78% nitrogen. This would leave 5% other gases in your tires. Then let's assume that over the next year that 5% leaks out and you have to fill up with atmosphere that's 78% nitrogen you're now left with 99% nitrogen in your tires and 1% other gases.

Assuming all the propaganda surrounding nitrogen filled tires is true it seems like a DIY over the course of three Tire fill ups.
 
Frack N Cylons said:
My new car came with nitrogen filled tires. I get the purported benefits, but it seems like a pain in the ass. There are not any nitrogen fill stations near me that I’ve found.

I try to be pretty self sufficient when it comes to vehicles and this erodes that.

So what are your thoughts? I’m leaning towards disregarding it and filling at home with good old atmosphere.
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People have been doing it for years and years.

Your milage may vary.


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Complete and total BS!

Show me the nitrogen tank and pump.
How do you get the nitrogen into the tires without freezing them solid?

Air is 78% nitrogen, close enough for legal standards.

Are there some ULTRA HIGH END race cars that actually do this for real? Supposedly.

For regular driving this does not matter. If it did they would use it on the tractor trailers.


*** EDITED; I have done zero research. But this what I have heard. Someone who knows the science please correct me.
 
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Spartan said:
Are there some ULTRA HIGH END race cars that actually do this for real? Supposedly.
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Yes - there is. Also my tires as well. PSI in tires make a huge difference on track and with the heat Im generating I can make my tires from cold go from 25 PSI to 38PSI in a few laps at which point the tires start to suck
 
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Oh this is silly to claim N2 is not affected by the laws of thermodynamics and thermal expansion. It's simply not correct. Period. The Universe simply does not care what is the gas is N2 or O2. Are these IDENTICAL? no. But the differences are so minute you would never know it in real world applications.
 
The ONLY application that makes sense for this is in aerospace, where jetliners travel in very cold climes. Any moisture in the air in the tires will freeze and cause an out of balance condition. Not good. Nitrogen in a tank (if you get pure nitrogen) has no moisture.

The rest is just a way to scam people, it makes zero practical difference on automotive applications
 
heavydoc said:
The reason for nitrogen filled tires is that nitrogen does not change pressure in the tire like air will. Air will change 5 to 10 psi during normal driving conditions and summer to winter temps. We don't see the temps it would take for nitrogen to react to the temp change.

Do I use nitrogen nope, but I also have a compressor on my truck. I use nitrogen for accumulators
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This does not match what basic laws (such as Boyle’s) of physics and chemistry state. You are mistaken.
 
Boyle's Law assumes zero moisture content, iirc.

Nitrogen is a "fix" for air because the water content in your average compressor is very high and the nitrogen water content is an absolute constant. Higher water content means more psi gain per degree of heat gained.
Got a good air dryer and purge on your compressor? Then run the air from it in your tires with no issues. Got wet shitty air? Then you'll have inconsistent pressure gain.
I came up with an octopus setup to pull vacuum on 8 tires at a time to remove as much water vapor as possible from our tires after mounting at the Firestone trailer. 2 quick purges with nitrogen then pull them down to "zero" and fill to pressure.

Something to be more concerned about than the air in your tire is the lube used to seat the bead. Think about the soapy water mix that is used at your average tire store, that's way, way more of a problem than what gas you fill them up with.
 
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Johnny said:
Boyle's Law assumes zero moisture content, iirc.

Nitrogen is a "fix" for air because the water content in your average compressor is very high and the nitrogen water content is an absolute constant. Higher water content means more psi gain per degree of heat gained.
Got a good air dryer and purge on your compressor? Then run the air from it in your tires with no issues. Got wet shitty air? Then you'll have inconsistent pressure gain.
I came up with an octopus setup to pull vacuum on 8 tires at a time to remove as much water vapor as possible from our tires after mounting at the Firestone trailer. 2 quick purges with nitrogen then pull them down to "zero" and fill to pressure.

Something to be more concerned about than the air in your tire is the lube used to seat the bead. Think about the soapy water mix that is used at your average tire store, that's way, way more of a problem than what gas you fill them up with.
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Yes, it’s an idealized version but close unless you have a lot of moisture. Your discussion is spot on. Don’t use crappy air supplies.
 
It’s about the water vapor in atmospheric air. The amount of water vapor the air can hold changes with temp. If you used bottled desiccated oxygen, you would get the same benefit as bottled desiccated nitrogen.
 
Just another reinvention of the wheel. I top them off with good old fashioned air as needed at work.
 
Most Costco stores have free Nitrogen fill stations in the parking lots. It’s “free for members” but nobody checks.
 
Nitrogen in street car tires... not necessary at all.

Nascar uses nitrogen because it easier to predict tire pressures as the tires heat up.

NHRA Top Fuel, Nitro Funny Car & Pro Stock all use compressed air in the tires.
( Top Fuel cars & Funny Cars actually stagger tire pressure between the rear slicks to counteract the chassis torque )
 
Hashknife said:
Nitrogen in street car tires... not necessary at all.

Nascar uses nitrogen because it easier to predict tire pressures as the tires heat up.

NHRA Top Fuel, Nitro Funny Car & Pro Stock all use compressed air in the tires.
( Top Fuel cars & Funny Cars actually stagger tire pressure between the rear slicks to counteract the chassis torque )
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We used wet air a few times in IndyCar. Every once in a while we would get a right rear Firestone mandated starting pressure for qualifying that would lower our desired target hot pressure. A little moist air would give it a few psi bump to our hot pressure. Not scientific, although given some time it could have been but for a few laps of qualy it didn't really matter, high preformed better.
 
Johnny said:
We used wet air a few times in IndyCar. Every once in a while we would get a right rear Firestone mandated starting pressure for qualifying that would lower our desired target hot pressure. A little moist air would give it a few psi bump to our hot pressure. Not scientific, although given some time it could have been but for a few laps of qualy it didn't really matter, high preformed better.
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Pretty cool stuff!!

I've still got my temp/pressure chart somewhere around here. I laminated it and carried it in my pocket in the staging lanes.
Direct sunlight on a top fuel tire will make the pressure rise pretty quickly. It will also change the circumference pretty fast too.
 
Hashknife said:
Pretty cool stuff!!

I've still got my temp/pressure chart somewhere around here. I laminated it and carried it in my pocket in the staging lanes.
Direct sunlight on a top fuel tire will make the pressure rise pretty quickly. It will also change the circumference pretty fast too.
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Almost makes me want to try and get my old Tuffbook fired up again and get my nerd on. I've got my excel spreadsheets on it and only it, unfortunately.
Tire pressures are probably the biggest area that amateur racers screw up resulting it wild swings in tire performance.
Sounds like drag racing might be a slightly different approach temp/pressure wise, maybe similar to dirt oval stuff in that diameter and tire spring rate are the target more so than target temp/pressure.
On club racing road course and paved oval, I saw it over and over, "35 psi is my starting pressure" so they reset every session back to that same 35 psi they used for the first session at 8:00am when it was 40 degrees out. It's now noon 80f and 2 left tires are in the sun, 2 on the right are in the shade. 35 psi isn't the the same 35 psi as it was in the morning and the 35 psi on the right is not the same as the 35 psi on the right.
It's all about hot Temps and pressures, in the above scenerio the pressures could be off by 8 psi overall and 3-4 psi side for side.. (just made up numbers, not maths)
Using a pretty basic spreadsheet with tire volume and gas law you can hit you target hot temps reliably, every session even with 2 in the shade and 2 in the sun and a 20f swing through the day. Cold pressures are entirely based on the temperature of the core of the tire, not the surface of the tire or the air temp.

I'll save it for another rant but infra-red temp gauges are absolutely shit for tires, maybe somewhat acceptable for hot temps in pit lane IF (big if) the inlap was hot and you are boxed close to pit entrance. Tires want to be probed, deeply. 😁
 
Jeppo said:
Most Costco stores have free Nitrogen fill stations in the parking lots. It’s “free for members” but nobody checks.
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Do the fill stations 'make' the nitrogen on site by extracting the O2 and H2O and other crap from the air before it goes into the tires, or do they have nitrogen tanks that are filled/replaced by an industrial gas company?
 
Jayne said:
Do the fill stations 'make' the nitrogen on site by extracting the O2 and H2O and other crap from the air before it goes into the tires, or do they have nitrogen tanks that are filled/replaced by an industrial gas company?
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No idea.
 
Frack N Cylons said:
My new car came with nitrogen filled tires. I get the purported benefits, but it seems like a pain in the ass. There are not any nitrogen fill stations near me that I’ve found.

I try to be pretty self sufficient when it comes to vehicles and this erodes that.

So what are your thoughts? I’m leaning towards disregarding it and filling at home with good old atmosphere.
Click to expand...
Do you drive your car on a race track? If not then it is a money extraction effort...
 
Jayne said:
Do the fill stations 'make' the nitrogen on site by extracting the O2 and H2O and other crap from the air before it goes into the tires, or do they have nitrogen tanks that are filled/replaced by an industrial gas company?
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That is a great question!
 
Johnny said:
Almost makes me want to try and get my old Tuffbook fired up again and get my nerd on. I've got my excel spreadsheets on it and only it, unfortunately.
Tire pressures are probably the biggest area that amateur racers screw up resulting it wild swings in tire performance.
Sounds like drag racing might be a slightly different approach temp/pressure wise, maybe similar to dirt oval stuff in that diameter and tire spring rate are the target more so than target temp/pressure.
On club racing road course and paved oval, I saw it over and over, "35 psi is my starting pressure" so they reset every session back to that same 35 psi they used for the first session at 8:00am when it was 40 degrees out. It's now noon 80f and 2 left tires are in the sun, 2 on the right are in the shade. 35 psi isn't the the same 35 psi as it was in the morning and the 35 psi on the right is not the same as the 35 psi on the right.
It's all about hot Temps and pressures, in the above scenerio the pressures could be off by 8 psi overall and 3-4 psi side for side.. (just made up numbers, not maths)
Using a pretty basic spreadsheet with tire volume and gas law you can hit you target hot temps reliably, every session even with 2 in the shade and 2 in the sun and a 20f swing through the day. Cold pressures are entirely based on the temperature of the core of the tire, not the surface of the tire or the air temp.

I'll save it for another rant but infra-red temp gauges are absolutely shit for tires, maybe somewhat acceptable for hot temps in pit lane IF (big if) the inlap was hot and you are boxed close to pit entrance. Tires want to be probed, deeply. 😁
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Surface temp during staging and circumference are more important than internal tire temp.
Circumference is measured before the run and after.


I would speculate that nobody drives their street car hard enough (on the streets) to warrant nitrogen filled tires.
 
Hashknife said:
Surface temp during staging and circumference are more important than internal tire temp.
Circumference is measured before the run and after.


I would speculate that nobody drives their street car hard enough (on the streets) to warrant nitrogen filled tires.
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Alright, if you insist on going back on topic. 🥸

Very much agree, but I could make a serious argument for use of nitrogen in trailer tires.
 
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