Private sales ?

thrillhill said:
I was 23 years old and had just moved back to Chatham County from points abroad.

Borrowed my dad's little single cab Nissan truck and proceeded to load about 18 of my firearms into the cab. Some in soft cases, some in hard cases, and some in blankets or nothing at all. This was a Friday evening and a couple friends were coming over Saturday to my place on the other side of the county to shoot.

Went to our church in Siler City and hung out until 11pm or so. They were having a "young adult" lock-in or some such. Was dating the girl who I married later and she was gonna stay overnight with some of the younger ones.

I got pulled by Siler City PD about 11:20-ish on the edge of town heading home. Turns out my dad's tags had expired 3 months prior. I never thought to look. I don't recall him asking nor do I know if expired tags are PC. Regardless he laid a blanket on the hood of his car and proceeded to run all 18. I did give him a heads up that the Norinco 1911 serial # would come back hot but to a Ruger 44 Magnum which it obviously was not (back then we'd just call the non-emergency # for dispatch even as "civilians" and get em to run the # before we bought used guns). He just looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language and didn't acknowledge anything I said. That was about par for the course back then for Siler. No idea if it's changed or not.

The folks inside the Country Store must have wondered what was going on. It was quite a spread on the blanket. MAK-90 or two, AR or three, M1 Carbine, HK-91, SKS, a couple shotguns, and several semi-auto handguns.

Stop took about 30 minutes from start to finish. We put all the guns back in my truck. I got a ticket for expired tags. My dad got them renewed. I showed up to court with proof and it was dropped but I paid court costs.


Fast forward 18 years later to 2017. I was leaving work at Ed's Gun Shop headed home. I was just outside Vass city limits headed North towards Carthage. Female in a S10-Blazer coming from opposite direction was either high on meth or drunk or on phone. I saw her coming into my lane a good ways off. By the time we met I had all 4 tires of my Pathfinder in the grass at about 40 mph and her mirror still raked down the side of my vehicle. She kept going of course. Major who said he was a pilot stopped behind me and said he couldn't believe that I was able to avoid the collision.

I called the 911. Seems they was a bit of an issue that I was only a couple hundred yards out of town limits. So they had to get the highway patrol. I really REALLY didn't give a crap about filing a report or whose jurisdiction it was. She was obviously in the town limits by the time I called and I was just hoping they could catch her before she killed somebody. Wasn't high on their list of priorities though.

So since he'd already been dispatched I waited a good 15 minutes until trooper got there.

I informed upon arrival. I was out of vehicle so I only informed as to what was on my person. (Had many many more in vehicle)

He took my EDC for "officer safety" but immediately went back to car and ran it. So he was gone for another 5 minutes or so and we hadn't even talked yet about what happened and why I called. He expressly did not ask my permission to run the numbers.

By the time he came back it'd been a good 20 minutes since the incident. I was pretty hot under the collar. Gave a brief description of incident and collected my J-Frame with the ever requisite loose ammo that seems to go hand in hand with cops that are non-gun people. Sure enough, he sounded like a transplant from the Bronx. Only irritating interaction I've ever had with a trooper.

So unless one or both of those stories are situations that presented probable cause (which wasn't articulated to me in either incident) then I guess I've had them ran twice without consent.

But, I've been through many a roadblock and been pulled when I was younger where the LEO didn't want to touch the gun/s and we were both fine with that.

Incidentally that expired tag ticket was the last ticket I ever got. And that was 1998.
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That’s a good example of an LE doing what they shouldn’t have done. You would be surprised by many who didn’t know that they cannot legally take possession of your hand gun if you have a permit and gave notice that you are armed, which is required by law. But we have done it to ourselves. In NC you must go to school longer to get a license to cut hair than you do to be a LEO.
 
Cowboy said:
Once you handed over the weapon for "officer safety" they are then in possession and open view of the weapon and Serial # so it's fair game.
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Taking your firearm for “officer safety” seems like an illegal search and seizure. @Average Joe ?

I’ve had it happen to me once and the guy ran serial numbers.

Pissed me off, still pisses me off when I think about it 😂
 
Average Joe said:
When officers run a check on the side of the road it is only through NCIC to see if the gun is stolen. To run a history of the gun and find out who purchased the gun requires a different process which takes a few days. So if the gun isn’t stolen, as the others have said above absolutely nothing. And remember they must have your consent or probable cause to run the serial number through NCIC. Having a gun in plain view in your vehicle, is not probable cause.

If you are transporting a weapon and it is plain view, it can be loaded. Nothing in NC law prohibits you from transporting a weapon loaded.
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P01135809 said:
Taking your firearm for “officer safety” seems like an illegal search and seizure. @Average Joe ?

I’ve had it happen to me once and the guy ran serial numbers.

Pissed me off, still pisses me off when I think about it 😂
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I went back to pull the information for everyone. I’m finding a 4th circuit court opinion that may have impact on my previous statement regarding consent or PC. I’m trying to get clarification.
 
P01135809 said:
Taking your firearm for “officer safety” seems like an illegal search and seizure. @Average Joe ?

I’ve had it happen to me once and the guy ran serial numbers.

Pissed me off, still pisses me off when I think about it 😂
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Again you can say no. If you don't it's voluntary.
 
LarrySr. said:
Most agencies in reference to firearms will run and documented with a copy of the teletype attached to the property receipt to insure it was not stolen.
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They still using teletype or was this just a reference to how it was back in the day?
 
Cowboy said:
As respectfully as one can you always have the option to say it's fine where it is.
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Say, “Respectfully sir, wouldn’t everyone be safer if I don’t touch mine and you don’t touch yours?”
HandyDave said:
Only time I've ever had a officer decide to run my firearm in a traffic stop it came back stolen. I bought it from my dad with papers and he bought it at greensboro gunshow with proper check and papers. I carried that cobalt blue titanium 7 shot 357mag taurus for 3 years before that stop. I had spend weekend in jail until court that following Monday. My dad came to court with his paperwork of buying the revolver from a dealer at gunshow and I had papers where we transfered it when I bought it from him. They let me go of course. But I still don't quite understand wtf happened.
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The more I think about this the more I think it’s wrong. Unless there were something else that have cause them to think the weapon were relevant to a crime, open possession of a weapon is not a crime, and taking it should be out of bounds. This “officer safety” crap us for the birds. Even if it came back stolen, it is not proof or even evidence that YOU stole it and any competent lawyer should be able to get that thrown out under innocent until proven guilty and there is no evidence you stole anything. In your case you proved you didn’t, but that’s not a burden that’s on you.

This is, along with the opposition to standing armies, and at the time of the writing of the constitution there were no police, but the military did function as LE, the 4th A says:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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Notice what is NOT said in there, “unless a govt enforcer thinks you may have committed a crime”. This is an example of why I am opposed to career, tax funded, enforcers and believe they as an institution will always become tyrannical. We didn’t have police until the late 1800s and I don’t think we should have them today, at least in their current iteration.
 
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noway2 said:
The more I think about this the more I think it’s wrong. Unless there were something else that have cause them to think the weapon were relevant to a crime, open possession of a weapon is not a crime, and taking it should be out of bounds. This “officer safety” crap us for the birds. Even if it came back stolen, it is not proof or even evidence that YOU stole it and any competent lawyer should be able to get that thrown out under innocent until proven guilty and there is no evidence you stole anything. In your case you proved you didn’t, but that’s not a burden that’s on you.
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Thanks, I’ve been trying to think of a nice way to say that having paperwork isn’t what got his case kicked, it was having a judge that wasn’t an idiot. Yes, possession of stolen property is a crime, but even so the LEO should have known that there wasn’t any intent to break that law.
 
GymB said:
Thanks, I’ve been trying to think of a nice way to say that having paperwork isn’t what got his case kicked, it was having a judge that wasn’t an idiot. Yes, possession of stolen property is a crime, but even so the LEO should have known that there wasn’t any intent to break that law.
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While I get the intent of making a deterrent to theft, I think the whole possession of stolen merchandise being a crime in and of itself is bad law because innocent people can, and do, unknowingly get caught up in it while engaging in what from every reasonable perspective should be legal commerce. There should have to be a provision that one knowingly takes possession of stolen property to be a crime.

The case with guns is even more egregious, because there is a system in place to help prevent the purchase or transfer of stolen guns, but its use has been denied to other than govt., which is horse pucky.
 
HandyDave said:
Only time I've ever had a officer decide to run my firearm in a traffic stop it came back stolen. I bought it from my dad with papers and he bought it at greensboro gunshow with proper check and papers. I carried that cobalt blue titanium 7 shot 357mag taurus for 3 years before that stop. I had spend weekend in jail until court that following Monday. My dad came to court with his paperwork of buying the revolver from a dealer at gunshow and I had papers where we transfered it when I bought it from him. They let me go of course. But I still don't quite understand wtf happened. Like how did it not show up stolen way before I got it. It was supposed to have been stolen in Asheboro 2 years before I got it. But it does show that even buying from a licensed dealer when dealing atleast with used guns problems could still come up down the road. I've wondered many times if it was all bullshit and that back road deputy sheriff just wanted my beautiful wheelgun for his collection.
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Are you saying a bill of sale saved you?
 
rufrdr said:
Are you saying a bill of sale saved you?
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This was years ago. When my dad bought it at gunshow he had do background check. Then with pistol purchase permit that we used to have we transfered pistol to me through ffl.
 
Glock5857 said:
Maybe there isn't a registry ? Maybe there is ? Do you believe there isn't a registry just because the government says there isn't ?
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If you buy a gun from an FFL, you fill out a 4473, that is filed away at that gun store. Maybe .gov knows about it, maybe they don’t. yet.

If you sell that gun to your next door neighbor legally, it’s technically off the radar. If that gun is stolen from him, and turns up later at a crime scene, they will trace that gun back to you, and perhaps come calling. You will state that you sold it legally. And last I've heard from anybody here, in twelve years of talking with folks in this community, that will be the end of that.
 
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noway2 said:
While I get the intent of making a deterrent to theft, I think the whole possession of stolen merchandise being a crime in and of itself is bad law because innocent people can, and do, unknowingly get caught up in it while engaging in what from every reasonable perspective should be legal commerce. There should have to be a provision that one knowingly takes possession of stolen property to be a crime.

The case with guns is even more egregious, because there is a system in place to help prevent the purchase or transfer of stolen guns, but its use has been denied to other than govt., which is horse pucky.
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I do not believe that possession of stolen property is a crime if you did not know (or if a reasonable person in your place would not have reasonably known) that the property was stolen.

I don’t want there to be an obligation to run a gun through NICS when buying, because that leads to problems, but there should be a website that’s free to use (and anonymous, ha ha) to look up a gun. If a third party, non governmental, business created such a tool, would you use it?
 
Glock5857 said:
If I buy a handgun from an individual, no BOS or paper documentation at all. If I get pulled over, I don't have ccp, but I'm legal to own, the gun is in full sight. If the officer runs a check on the gun, it's not going to show registered to me. What happens ???
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What do you mean by "registered to me?" What registry? Where? from whom?
 
Glock5857 said:
Maybe there isn't a registry ? Maybe there is ? Do you believe there isn't a registry just because the government says there isn't ?
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A couple of states do have registries, but not North Carolina.

I don't have to take North Carolina's word that the state does not have a firearms registry because I can see that it is an impossibility.
- When I moved to NC I didn't have to report the guns I brought with me, so NC does not know about them.
- When I buy or sell guns with private parties, there is no mechanism to report those transactions to the state.
- When I buy or sell guns with FFLs, there is no mechanism to report those transactions to the state.
- LE could keep a record of guns they encounter with individuals, but there is no mechanism to aggregate such records by the state.
 
For those waiting on me to provide further information about my last post. It will be tomorrow before I can provide that information. Sorry for the delay but I promise to follow up and post more asap.
 
Cowboy said:
Again you can say no. If you don't it's voluntary.
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My situation would have amounted to fighting in the side of the road over a firearm. Open carry on passenger seat. Definitely not voluntary and definitely no clear opportunity to have a conversation. It would have been me reaching for it to prevent him from taking it while he just reached through open passenger window. I immediately informed him but he clearly had “gun panic”. Brought it back unloaded and let me know it was “clean”
 
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Glock5857 said:
Maybe there isn't a registry ? Maybe there is ? Do you believe there isn't a registry just because the government says there isn't ?
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There isn't. And if there was some super secret registry how would you go about getting in? Use a decoder ring to get the address to send a copy of the serial number of your gun to? The NICS background check was originally envisioned as a permanent record but that was scrapped. The current paper records get transferred to the ATF once a dealer goes out of business but that's not quite a registry either.

And even if there was some secret registry the last person they'd give access to was Mr. Normal cop.

Don't mean to sound hostile but we have debated this one to death for years.
 
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P01135809 said:
Taking your firearm for “officer safety” seems like an illegal search and seizure. @Average Joe ?

I’ve had it happen to me once and the guy ran serial numbers.

Pissed me off, still pisses me off when I think about it 😂
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State trooper did it to me once.
 
noway2 said:
Say, “Respectfully sir, wouldn’t everyone be safer if I don’t touch mine and you don’t touch yours?”
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I understand why you want to be respectful. However, in that question, you did not say, "No."

If you want to be respectful, you could say, "No, sir."

Mathieu18 said:
@Average Joe is there a statute etc one could mention while politely informing the officer he has no right to disarm you in the state if NC (assuming you’ve provided CHP & NCDL?
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I understand why you want to be polite. However, in that statement, you would not have said, "No."

If you want to be polite, you could say, "No, sir."

You can be polite and respectful without having a discussion, and without trying to educate a cop about the law. These days, it is most important that your Negative be clearly understood. Make the relocated yankee cop now working in NC go to court after disarming you without incident, even though you said, "No." Unless you get a relocated yankee lawyer now working in NC as a judge, the issue will be clear.
 
You guys must be total buttholes. I've been checked numerous times (routine license checks) and never had a problem. I inform them that I am carrying and when I show them my permit they look the other way and tell me to have a nice day.
 
Downeast said:
You guys must be total buttholes. I've been checked numerous times (routine license checks) and never had a problem. I inform them that I am carrying and when I show them my permit they look the other way and tell me to have a nice day.
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Well the OP mentioned not having a CHP, I believe.
 
Downeast said:
You guys must be total buttholes. I've been checked numerous times (routine license checks) and never had a problem. I inform them that I am carrying and when I show them my permit they look the other way and tell me to have a nice day.
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In my case, I politely informed and the trooper ordered me out of the car, spread me out on my car and frisked me, took my gun, ordered me back in the car, ran the numbers on the gun, then unloaded it, put the gun on my trunk, handed me the ammo with my ticket and ordered me to stay in my car until he left. He was the butthole, not me.

Only time it has ever happened that way. Every other LE interaction has been fine.
 
cubrock said:
In my case, I politely informed and the trooper...
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Did he draw his weapon while you exited the car?

Why are some LEOs so scared of the people they interact with? There are far more people within gun shot of them that are carrying, everywhere they go.
 
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Mathieu18 said:
@Average Joe is there a statute etc one could mention while politely informing the officer he has no right to disarm you in the state if NC (assuming you’ve provided CHP & NCDL?
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That is what I was going to post when I found the some case law that may supersede the information in my prior post. Trying to confirm that information and waiting on a call. I’ll post it ASAP.
 
new idea - drop it in a lock box, keep the key
I've definitely had cops (up in MI) temporarily take my gun "for officer safety"
and you hope it comes back in the condition you gave it to them. It wouldn't take much for somebody to pop out the firing pin on a glock...
 
cubrock said:
State trooper did it to me once.
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Can't speak for NC, but in CA if you are pulled over and have a firearm anywhere n the vehicle, even legally stored, they will cuff you and either put you in the rear seat of their vehicle or on the curb while the legality of the firearms are determined.
 
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MacEntyre said:
Did he draw his weapon while you exited the car?

Why are some LEOs so scared of the people they interact with? There are far more people within gun shot of them that are carrying, everywhere they go.
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No, but he had his hand on his gun.
 
JohnFreeman said:
This is good info to know. Since I'm retired, I'm generally not in a big hurry to get anywhere anyway.

I'll say no.
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But being retired generally means that you're older. You actually have less time to get some place than those who are younger. So you might want to hurry up and get there, lest You not get there at all. Something to think about.
 
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