Riding the reset is dumb...

Yikes. I say BS! I would never, never ever suggest taking your finger off the trigger in a course of fire, whether it is intentional or not. That leads to or can lead to slapping the trigger.
Train more and learn your trigger.
 
beeleafs said:
Yikes. I say BS! I would never, never ever suggest taking your finger off the trigger in a course of fire, whether it is intentional or not. That leads to or can lead to slapping the trigger.
Train more and learn your trigger.
Click to expand...

Please shoot a 2 second bill drill without slapping. Or win multiple national and international championships like Ben did.

It’s not possible.

Slapping is fine. If you have a good grip and correct hand tension, you can slap holes right next to each other in the A-zone from out further than you think.
 
JRV said:
Please shoot a 2 second bill drill without slapping. Or win multiple national and international championships like Ben did.

It’s not possible.

Slapping is fine. If you have a good grip and correct hand tension, you can slap holes right next to each other in the A-zone from out further than you think.
Click to expand...
Yup, all those guys are 1%'ers, so fair enough. For sure no argument here.
 
Get a gun that kicks a-bit and riding the reset becomes a whole nother world.
I have a G41 with a Zev trigger set up that pulls under 3lbs. I've tried riding the reset on that one and most of the time you just end up double-tapping the hell out of it. I have a bone stock trigger PPQ 45 that's been known to do it too. That one is even more startling because the fully cocked striker is just itching to go. It happens very fast.
 
Here's my take,

Poor trigger control, is one of many forms of sight picture / alignment disturbance.

Others are breathing, weak grip, no sight picture, no sight alignment.

If the firearms point of aim is true, and the shot is taken then the impact will be precise, if the firearms is stable during the firing sequence.

I'd you disturb the point of aim the preciseness of the shot can vary, AKA open the shot group up.

We have seen time and time again with handgun marksmanship that poor trigger control does not always impact the shot group negativity.

We have seen that not even having a sight alignment negatively impact the shot group (point shooting)

So then what's the stability factor then if it's not trigger control or sight alignment?

Grip my friend, grip.

If you have a damn good grip on that handgun that allows you do any level of poor "fundamentals".

Every single training technique in firearms training leads to one solution.

Stable platform

Trigger reset is a teaching tool to help new shooters focus on the front sight and trigger follow through. This leads to a stable platform.

It's not that reset fixed anything, it's that the shooter is focused on not disturbing the shot.

John
 
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JBoyette said:
Here's my take,

Poor trigger control, is one of many forms of sight picture / alignment disturbance.

Others are breathing, weak grip, no sight picture, no sight alignment.

If the firearms point of aim is true, and the shot is taken then the impact will be precise, if the firearms is stable during the firing sequence.

I'd you disturb the point of aim the preciseness of the shot can vary, AKA open the shot group up.

We have seen time and time again with handgun marksmanship that poor trigger control does not always impact the shot group negativity.

We have seen that not even having a sight alignment negatively impact the shot group (point shooting)

So then what's the stability factor then if it's not trigger control or sight alignment?

Grip my friend, grip.

If you have a damn good grip on that handgun that allows you do any level of poor "fundamentals".

Every single training technique in firearms training leads to one solution.

Stable platform

Trigger reset is a teaching tool to help new shooters focus on the front sight and trigger follow through. This leads to a stable platform.

It's not that reset fixed anything, it's that the shooter is focused on not disturbing the shot.

John
Click to expand...
Well said John.
 
Different shots/sight pictures require different trigger pulls.
Hosing 3 yard USPSA paper arrays and knocking over a 25yd 4" plate require different trigger presses/attention.

IMO, one size does not fit all.
 
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So I know that riding to the reset is possible on a 1911 because of the great triggers. It's not possible with Glock triggers because they are not very predictable on the reset distance.
 
My intermediate-shooter self has no basis to argue with the experts. I do use the reset for training but I never tried to shoot fast with it. I always though of 'riding the reset' as the wax-on-wax-off of gun-fu. It's a useful tool but a very basic tool.
 
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NKD said:
Different shots/sight pictures require different trigger pulls.
Hosing 3 yard USPSA paper arrays and knocking over a 25yd 4" plate require different trigger presses/attention.

IMO, one size does not fit all.
Click to expand...

Agree.

Somehow I am able to miss an 8" plate more often than I would like to admit. Same frequency but more shame when it comes to 10" plates.

If I slap the trigger on my VQ I'm in trouble. Even though it is a .22 I have to grip hell out of it and make sure that I don't have a sympathetic grip response on my strong hand when pressing the trigger. It don't take much to mess me up.

If done "right for me", after shooting 5 strings with the pistol my hands ache slightly from the exertion. But that's okay because it just blends in with all the other things that hurt all the time.
 
If you convince yourself fast shooting and accurate shooting are two different concepts, you will never progress beyond hosing close targets and staging overconfirmed individual shots everywhere else.

The limitation is mental and comes from a lack of intentional exposure to shooting outside the comfort zone. It doesn’t help that most pistol instructors (especially service/LE-only backgrounds) are about as competent at performance pistol as deaf mute singing coaches.

If the pistol is pointed at the target, a slow squeeze, a fast squeeze, or a slap straight to the rear accomplish the same goal. If a faster trigger motion pulls you off target, (a) your trigger motion isn’t straight back, (b) your grip is a soup sandwich, or (c) both. Those are fixed by training the weaknesses, not by avoiding the errors forever with workarounds.

It’s fine if people don’t see value in investing the time/cost/effort into progressing past the errors. For lots of people, shooting is just a hobby and not a performance sport. But, it isn’t a question of “different strokes.” There are principles for shooting that are objectively better and universal at higher level performance. There are right and wrong ways of approaching it.

Right takes effort. Staying wrong is an option if the effort isn’t worth it (which is completely valid), but it’s not an equal alternative to doing it right.
 
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JRV said:
If you convince yourself fast shooting and accurate shooting are two different concepts, you will never progress beyond hosing close targets and staging overconfirmed individual shots everywhere else.

The limitation is mental and comes from a lack of intentional exposure to shooting outside the comfort zone. It doesn’t help that most pistol instructors (especially service/LE-only backgrounds) are about as competent at performance pistol as deaf mute singing coaches.

If the pistol is pointed at the target, a slow squeeze, a fast squeeze, or a slap straight to the rear accomplish the same goal. If a faster trigger motion pulls you off target, (a) your trigger motion isn’t straight back, (b) your grip is a soup sandwich, or (c) both. Those are fixed by training the weaknesses, not by avoiding the errors forever with workarounds.
Click to expand...
Correct 100%

John
 
JRV said:
If you convince yourself fast shooting and accurate shooting are two different concepts, you will never progress beyond hosing close targets and staging overconfirmed individual shots everywhere else.
Click to expand...

So you can mag dump your pistol when you shoot bullseye and hit the targets just as well?

Maybe I'm just confused since I can't shoot very fast.

I'm being a bit silly, and I agree mostly with what you're saying. Seems like there are slightly different approaches with bullseye and speed shooting though.
 
I agree with Ben broadly, however I think understanding trigger reset on a basic level can help new shooters understand the trigger system a little better as well, and then they can start to push their limits.

I also think that precision demands/distance, time, and other factors should play into how you manipulate your trigger to some degree.

The problem is a lot of guys over harp on the reset like it's some great end all be all which it clearly isn't. It's simply another element of trigger ma ipulation that needs to be understood.

But yeah for sure if shooting a USPSA style course of fire, grip and sight alignment make up 99% of the shooting, and your ability to move through the stage strategically is 75% of your score.
 
Studentofthegun said:
So you can mag dump your pistol when you shoot bullseye and hit the targets just as well?

Maybe I'm just confused since I can't shoot very fast.
Click to expand...

No. Never said that. What I said was the accuracy is not dictated by the speed of the trigger press. When I shoot bullseye, specifically the rapid fire stage, the shot pace is based on the recovery of the sight picture. My RF strings are usually done in 7 to 7.5 seconds. My attention is on riding the recoil and getting a centered front sight in the white under the bull (or a dot wiggling in the center black).

I don’t laboriously drag the sear nose across the hammer hooks. When the eyes say it’s right, I want the shot to break immediately. I shoot the long line the same way, but it’s much slower—very fine errors in sight alignment make the difference between a called 10 and an 8 or 7. It’s visually slower.

I’m also cognizant that shooting one-handed like that requires absolute focus in grip pressures in a way that freestyle shooting does not. A good support hand grip can compensate for a lot of imperfect trigger movement. But, I’m not shooting high-90s RF targets by thinking about a slower trigger finger, ever.

The speed limit is always visual confirmation. Your eyes are the brakes. Consciously treating your trigger finger as a separate brake pedal is just double slow. The trigger is the gas pedal.

Now, you can take examples to extremes (3yd bill drills versus shooting a Contender for long range metallic silhouette), but niche examples don’t make rules. For basic USPSA and IDPA-type performance shooting: grip correctly, see “enough” confirmation, and move the trigger at basically any speed.
 
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JRV said:
No. Never said that. What I said was the accuracy is not dictated by the speed of the trigger press. When I shoot bullseye, specifically the rapid fire stage, the shot pace is based on the recovery of the sight picture. My RF strings are usually done in 7 to 7.5 seconds. My attention is on riding the recoil and getting a centered front sight in the white under the bull (or a dot wiggling in the center black).

I don’t laboriously drag the sear nose across the hammer hooks. When the eyes say it’s right, I want the shot to break immediately. I shoot the long line the same way, but it’s much slower—very fine errors in sight alignment make the difference between a called 10 and an 8 or 7. It’s visually slower.

I’m also cognizant that shooting one-handed like that requires absolute focus in grip pressures in a way that freestyle shooting does not. A good support hand grip can compensate for a lot of imperfect trigger movement. But, I’m not shooting high-90s RF targets by thinking about a slower trigger finger, ever.

The speed limit is always visual confirmation. Your eyes are the brakes. Consciously treating your trigger finger as a separate brake pedal is just double slow. The trigger is the gas pedal.

Now, you can take examples to extremes (3yd bill drills versus shooting a Contender for long range metallic silhouette), but niche examples don’t make rules. For basic USPSA and IDPA-type performance shooting: grip correctly, see “enough” confirmation, and move the trigger at basically any speed.
Click to expand...
Guys,
A lot of solid information is in this post.

Speed shooting is driven by visual focus. Period.

When you see a target you do not look at the whole, you look at a detail.

How fast you can see that detail to the next is the true pace of performance, no matter the environment.
 
JRV said:
No. Never said that. What I said was the accuracy is not dictated by the speed of the trigger press. When I shoot bullseye, specifically the rapid fire stage, the shot pace is based on the recovery of the sight picture. My RF strings are usually done in 7 to 7.5 seconds. My attention is on riding the recoil and getting a centered front sight in the white under the bull.
Click to expand...

Ok, that makes a little more sense. Thank you.

How many rounds are you firing in 7 seconds? You're a wonderful bullseye shooter and I'm not so I'm trying to educate myself.

Edited to add: Ah, I see you added a bit to that post. I do see what you're saying. Yeah, I totally get not focussing on the trigger pull and instead using the sight picture as your cue and letting it rip.
 
Studentofthegun said:
Ok, that makes a little more sense. Thank you.

How many rounds are you firing in 7 seconds? You're a wonderful bullseye shooter and I'm not so I'm trying to educate myself.

Edited to add: Ah, I see you added a bit to that post. I do see what you're saying. Yeah, I totally get not focussing on the trigger pull and instead using the sight picture as your cue and letting it rip.
Click to expand...

Rapid Fire is 5-round strings at 25 yards. The target turns for ten seconds and then hides itself again. It’s plenty of time with a .22, but the .45 is squirrelier, so most of that time is spent recovering from recoil and getting sight confirmation.

The CMP makes the .22 matches a little more interesting—start pointing down at a 45 and lift once the target turns. So you lose 1-2 seconds getting that first shot off.

Mason Lane (another one of those guys among the best in the world right now) just posted something salient this morning.

IMG_4278.jpeg

IMG_4279.jpeg

All of these guys teach “Trigger Control At Speed” in one form or another. If you haven’t tried it, you can do it dry or live. It requires a timer. Stand with your freestyle grip. Finger fully off the trigger. Set the timer to a random beep. Break the shot reacting to the beep. No staging. Finger off the trigger, straight back through the wall in one motion. Watch the dot or sights as they break. Mess with your grip until you can do that repeatedly with a minimum amount of dot or sight movement, as soon as possible. Then, drill that grip.

It’s completely possible to get yourself trained to hit a popper or plate at 25 yards in one unstaged trigger press.
 
JRV said:
Rapid Fire is 5-round strings at 25 yards. The target turns for ten seconds and then hides itself again. It’s plenty of time with a .22, but the .45 is squirrelier, so most of that time is spent recovering from recoil and getting sight confirmation.

The CMP makes the .22 matches a little more interesting—start pointing down at a 45 and lift once the target turns. So you lose 1-2 seconds getting that first shot off.

Mason Lane (another one of those guys among the best in the world right now) just posted something salient this morning.

View attachment 753129

View attachment 753131

All of these guys teach “Trigger Control At Speed” in one form or another. If you haven’t tried it, you can do it dry or live. It requires a timer. Stand with your freestyle grip. Finger fully off the trigger. Set the timer to a random beep. Break the shot reacting to the beep. No staging. Finger off the trigger, straight back through the wall in one motion. Watch the dot or sights as they break. Mess with your grip until you can do that repeatedly with a minimum amount of dot or sight movement, as soon as possible. Then, drill that grip.

It’s completely possible to get yourself trained to hit a popper or plate at 25 yards in one unstaged trigger press.
Click to expand...

That is great information. I don't have any trouble hitting a popper or plate at 25 yards. One of these days I would like to try out some bullseye shooting. It is something that is new to me. Shooting in general is not though.

My primary discipline is rimfire racing. But that uses two hands.

Two years ago I was goofing around at SASP Nationals as a volunteer. Went to one of those tents that was about 110 degrees and shot one round with an air pistol. Using two hands since I'm a noob. James Hall came over and told me I needed to start doing it competitively. I did not know who he was at the time and I embarrassed myself by laughing in his face.

What I didn't realize is that he was serious. Anyway, I may end up putting an airsoft range in the new house so I can give it a go. James is a nice guy and we text each other once in a great while.

I don't really do USPSA but I shoot outlaw matches for fun and don't put any pressure on myself to do well in those. Rimfire is my thing. If you want to see what that is about I'll be in Range 3, 4 or 5 at DPRC this Sunday afternoon. Depending on what is open.

Just look for the biggest, goofiest looking guy there and you'll have found me.
 
JBoyette said:
….

Trigger reset is a teaching tool to help new shooters focus on the front sight and trigger follow through. This leads to a stable platform.

It's not that reset fixed anything, it's that the shooter is focused on not disturbing the shot.

John
Click to expand...

OMG, Thank You for ^this^

I’ve waited 24 hrs to make any response and still, all I can say is, I never knew Ben could (or would ever) take SO MUCH OUT OF CONTEXT.

I guess none of us, including moi, is above a click bait title or video, from time to time.

Sheesh.


Dirtydirtysouf said:
I was trying to stir the pot 😜
Click to expand...

LOL, clearly, Ben S. didn’t need any assist in “stirring,” the day he made the video in OP …
 
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Studentofthegun said:
Two years ago I was goofing around at SASP Nationals as a volunteer. Went to one of those tents that was about 110 degrees and shot one round with an air pistol. Using two hands since I'm a noob. James Hall came over and told me I needed to start doing it competitively. I did not know who he was at the time and I embarrassed myself by laughing in his face.

What I didn't realize is that he was serious. Anyway, I may end up putting an airsoft range in the new house so I can give it a go. James is a nice guy and we text each other once in a great while.
Click to expand...

If you ever have any interest in 10m air pistol, TSA hosts 60-shot matches in Raleigh. I can connect you with guys that have some excellent loaner equipment. I know DPRC does a more casual indoor practice thing on one of the weeknights—I think it’s Thursdays.
 
NKD said:
Different shots/sight pictures require different trigger pulls.
Hosing 3 yard USPSA paper arrays and knocking over a 25yd 4" plate require different trigger presses/attention.

IMO, one size does not fit all.
Click to expand...
It’s not trigger control, it’s sight control. This problem is addressed by Ben and other top shooters.
 
AR10ShooterinNC said:
It’s not trigger control, it’s sight control. This problem is addressed by Ben and other top shooters.
Click to expand...

I said different sight pictures require different trigger presses.

Not sure what you are saying?
 
NKD said:
I said different sight pictures require different trigger presses.

Not sure what you are saying?
Click to expand...

I do not know this as a fact, but I am interested in exploring that a "quick" trigger manipulation for the four styles posted in the IG video earlier is the proper framework.

Might be a fun experiment to see how this shakes out.
 
JBoyette said:
I do not think so.

It's not different strokes of different fokes at all.

Shooting is the same for everyone.

Do not disturb the gun's orientation while presented to the target.

It's that simple.
Click to expand...

Maintaining aim on the target is fundamental to shooting.

However, different people reach that goal in different ways.

This thread exists because of those differences.
 
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