Friend of mine has a Saiga sporter in 7.62x39 that he says deforms brass so badly that it can’t be reloaded. Is there a barrel that can be installed to cure this problem, and can anyone recommend someone to do the work?
Saiga barrel swap
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IUHoosier429
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Shoot steel. Problem solved.
Thread closed.
All kidding aside, it's not the barrel. It's a pretty common thing in those earlier Saiga sporters. Share some pics of the spent cases to see if they look like this:
ETA - from the user manual (sic):
"Warning: on request of the Russian law enforcement bodies the chamber design of the carbines, cal 7.62x39 provides for special distinctive element, which during firing produces circular stamping on the fired case mouth, not affecting the carbine reliablility, trouble-free performance, serice life and ballistic parambers and not being a sign of being faulty. The cartiges extraced from the chamber of the carbine reloading and unloading, are suitable for repeat usage."
Thread closed.
All kidding aside, it's not the barrel. It's a pretty common thing in those earlier Saiga sporters. Share some pics of the spent cases to see if they look like this:
ETA - from the user manual (sic):
"Warning: on request of the Russian law enforcement bodies the chamber design of the carbines, cal 7.62x39 provides for special distinctive element, which during firing produces circular stamping on the fired case mouth, not affecting the carbine reliablility, trouble-free performance, serice life and ballistic parambers and not being a sign of being faulty. The cartiges extraced from the chamber of the carbine reloading and unloading, are suitable for repeat usage."
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OP
I’ve invited him to join the forum, so maybe he’ll post some pics.
Fess
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Hi guys, I am the the fellow that 303Hunter mentioned. Another screen name that I have used on some forums in Nincomp, which is short for Nincompoop. In a moment, you will see why that name fits. At this point in time, what I am really looking for is a gunsmith who can machine a high-quality barrel blank and fit it to my Saiga 7.62x39.
IUHoosier429, yes, my 2004 Saiga has the stepped chamber, but it has been further damaged. Before going farther, I should note that I bought this rifle when it was literally the cheapest semi-auto that I could find at the gun show: $199. I got a $199 HiPoint carbine at the same time. In 2004 or so, the Saiga and the HiPoint were the Rodney Dangerfields of firearms: they didn't get any respect. The whole idea was to get the least expensive rifles that I could find and then experiment to see how accurate I could get them with careful load selection and any other trick I could think of. In other words, the whole reason I bought the thing was to try to get good accuracy, not just blast at 3 or 4 MOA. I figured that I could always rebarrel the Saiga with a better barrel if it was a stinker.
Unfortunately, in 2005, I had severely injured my back and was stuck at home taking pain meds and muscle relaxants to stop the spasming. That's when I had the bright idea to slug the barrel with lead fishing weights to find out the true land and groove diameters. One sad truth with medications that can affect judgement is, well, that your judgement gets affected and you don't realize it. After this incident, I put my firearms away and haven't shot them since. This was roughly 15 years ago. The back injury has kept me largely incapacitated and mostly stuck in a recliner since then, but I have been thinking of resuming the "accurate Saiga" project.
The next mistake I made was to use a wooden dowel to force the slug down the barrel. It got stuck. This particular barrel has significant constrictions in the areas where the gas block, rear sight block and trunion had been pressed on. When the slug got near the chamber, it got stuck in one of the constrictions and the dowel broke on the diagonal. This jammed the whole mess pretty solidly. After trying a number to things to get it unstuck, I eventually tried to drill it out. I did not realize how sharp the "step" in the chamber neck was and managed to damage it and a little of the throat. This not only made me feel really stupid, but put an end to the accuracy project. The gunsmith that took a quick look at it said "it is probably OK", but that did not inspire a lot of confidence.
So there's the sorry story. Although part of me says "just shoot the thing", the other part of me still wants to make this rifle as accurate as practical. It is a silly idea, I know, but I still want to do it. It is physically difficult for me to shoot, so I'd like to hit what I'm shooting at. Also, for some reason, building an accurate AK variant just strikes me as an amusing challenge. What I really want to do is to try to find a fairly high grade barrel and have a gunsmith turn it down and fit it to this receiver. I have half-heartedly tried to find someone to do this, but so far, the main suggestion that I have had is to have someone modify a standard AK barrel, then buy whatever AK parts that would fit it. This Saiga, you see, doesn't have the same journal sizes as most AKM's or AK47's. It is based on the AK103. The problem is that I doubt that a regular AK barrel will be any more accurate than the one it already has.
Does anyone know a gunsmith who will rebarrel this Saiga for me without charging an arm and a leg?
Thanks
IUHoosier429, yes, my 2004 Saiga has the stepped chamber, but it has been further damaged. Before going farther, I should note that I bought this rifle when it was literally the cheapest semi-auto that I could find at the gun show: $199. I got a $199 HiPoint carbine at the same time. In 2004 or so, the Saiga and the HiPoint were the Rodney Dangerfields of firearms: they didn't get any respect. The whole idea was to get the least expensive rifles that I could find and then experiment to see how accurate I could get them with careful load selection and any other trick I could think of. In other words, the whole reason I bought the thing was to try to get good accuracy, not just blast at 3 or 4 MOA. I figured that I could always rebarrel the Saiga with a better barrel if it was a stinker.
Unfortunately, in 2005, I had severely injured my back and was stuck at home taking pain meds and muscle relaxants to stop the spasming. That's when I had the bright idea to slug the barrel with lead fishing weights to find out the true land and groove diameters. One sad truth with medications that can affect judgement is, well, that your judgement gets affected and you don't realize it. After this incident, I put my firearms away and haven't shot them since. This was roughly 15 years ago. The back injury has kept me largely incapacitated and mostly stuck in a recliner since then, but I have been thinking of resuming the "accurate Saiga" project.
The next mistake I made was to use a wooden dowel to force the slug down the barrel. It got stuck. This particular barrel has significant constrictions in the areas where the gas block, rear sight block and trunion had been pressed on. When the slug got near the chamber, it got stuck in one of the constrictions and the dowel broke on the diagonal. This jammed the whole mess pretty solidly. After trying a number to things to get it unstuck, I eventually tried to drill it out. I did not realize how sharp the "step" in the chamber neck was and managed to damage it and a little of the throat. This not only made me feel really stupid, but put an end to the accuracy project. The gunsmith that took a quick look at it said "it is probably OK", but that did not inspire a lot of confidence.
So there's the sorry story. Although part of me says "just shoot the thing", the other part of me still wants to make this rifle as accurate as practical. It is a silly idea, I know, but I still want to do it. It is physically difficult for me to shoot, so I'd like to hit what I'm shooting at. Also, for some reason, building an accurate AK variant just strikes me as an amusing challenge. What I really want to do is to try to find a fairly high grade barrel and have a gunsmith turn it down and fit it to this receiver. I have half-heartedly tried to find someone to do this, but so far, the main suggestion that I have had is to have someone modify a standard AK barrel, then buy whatever AK parts that would fit it. This Saiga, you see, doesn't have the same journal sizes as most AKM's or AK47's. It is based on the AK103. The problem is that I doubt that a regular AK barrel will be any more accurate than the one it already has.
Does anyone know a gunsmith who will rebarrel this Saiga for me without charging an arm and a leg?
Thanks
@digitalpaladin10 may be able to help.
Fess
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Thanks. I will contact him. I just read his "Slovakian parts kit" post. It looks like the Slovakian receiver uses the same 22mm barrel journal as my Saiga. The only thing that worries me is that instead of machining DOWN the barrel to fit, he reamed the trunion to a larger diameter.
Wish I could assist more but I know nothing about AKs and even less about Saigas.
Arsenal probably makes a barrel that fits.
not sure if this is the right one. Contact K-Var to confirm.
www.k-var.com
www.ar15.com
looks like a Saiga has a 22mm Trunnion and this Bulgarian barrel is 23mm. So maybe it can be turned down.
not sure if this is the right one. Contact K-Var to confirm.
Arsenal 7.62x39mm 16" Barrel 23mm Trunnion Block
Arsenal AK-603 Barrel, 7.62x39mm Caliber, 16 inch long, for 23mm (.906) trunnion, for AK-74 type FSB, chrome lined & hammer forged. From Arsenal Bulgaria.
www.k-var.com
Saiga 7.62x39 Trunnion Size - AR15.COM
Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.
www.ar15.com
looks like a Saiga has a 22mm Trunnion and this Bulgarian barrel is 23mm. So maybe it can be turned down.
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IUHoosier429
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First of all, @Fess welcome to CFF. Glad you joined us. Thanks for your con"fess"ion about Bubba'ing. You're by far not the first and won't be the last, and if I had a dollar for every nincompoop thing I've done to an AK, I'd have enough money to buy another AK at 2020 prices.
Just how much accuracy are you trying to squeeze out of a $200 neutered AK? It's probably gonna cost an arm or a leg to build a custom barrel from a blank for your Saiga. PSA's newer AK-103 uses a CHF barrel made by FN that's supposed to be nice. Maybe this would work?
Just how much accuracy are you trying to squeeze out of a $200 neutered AK? It's probably gonna cost an arm or a leg to build a custom barrel from a blank for your Saiga. PSA's newer AK-103 uses a CHF barrel made by FN that's supposed to be nice. Maybe this would work?
Fess
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. The bolt on most Saigas if different from that of standard AK's, so I have read that the shank of the barrel needs to be seated to a different depth. The Arfcom article posted by Wade Watts mentions this. Sadly the thread on Arfcom stopped before the problem was solved. I will contact Green Mountain barrels, just in case they are set up to make the correct barrel. For a CNC lathe, all they need are the correct dimensions .... provided they program their own equipment.
As for what accuracy ... My original plan was to see what the accuracy initially looked like with typical cheap ammo and then see how far I could improve it. I have heard a few people claim that they could get 2 MOA. As I got farther into it, there seemed less and less that I could do to this particular rifle. I had planned to reload for this rifle, but with the "stepped-neck" the brass looked too damaged to resize. (I could be wrong about that, though). Then, there were the tight and loose areas in the bore from the press-fitted pieces. Next, the throat is very long. When I modified a case to push a bullet foreword to see where it would touch the rifling, all of the bullets I had (five or so types) fell out of the case before hitting the lands! Then I realized that even if I could find a bullet long enough to get close to the rifling, it wouldn't fit in the magazine.
In the beginning, I did not realize what a big deal it would be to get a barrel machined to spec. I had worked for a number of years in factories that had tool and model shops that could easily do this. The only difficulty was reaming the chamber, and I already had a reamer. I still have it...... somewhere....
Tragically, I did not take a picture of this rifle in its fully Bubba'ed form. Since no skeleton stock was available at the time, I modified the original plastic Monte Carlo stock and added a hand grip ---------- fabricated from the handle of a ski pole! Bright yellow, no less! Let me put it this way, I have lived most of my life in the Carolinas and have had three friends who were called "Bubba." Even THEY would have laughed at the thing!
As for what accuracy ... My original plan was to see what the accuracy initially looked like with typical cheap ammo and then see how far I could improve it. I have heard a few people claim that they could get 2 MOA. As I got farther into it, there seemed less and less that I could do to this particular rifle. I had planned to reload for this rifle, but with the "stepped-neck" the brass looked too damaged to resize. (I could be wrong about that, though). Then, there were the tight and loose areas in the bore from the press-fitted pieces. Next, the throat is very long. When I modified a case to push a bullet foreword to see where it would touch the rifling, all of the bullets I had (five or so types) fell out of the case before hitting the lands! Then I realized that even if I could find a bullet long enough to get close to the rifling, it wouldn't fit in the magazine.
In the beginning, I did not realize what a big deal it would be to get a barrel machined to spec. I had worked for a number of years in factories that had tool and model shops that could easily do this. The only difficulty was reaming the chamber, and I already had a reamer. I still have it...... somewhere....
Tragically, I did not take a picture of this rifle in its fully Bubba'ed form. Since no skeleton stock was available at the time, I modified the original plastic Monte Carlo stock and added a hand grip ---------- fabricated from the handle of a ski pole! Bright yellow, no less! Let me put it this way, I have lived most of my life in the Carolinas and have had three friends who were called "Bubba." Even THEY would have laughed at the thing!
IUHoosier429
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Man oh man I wish we could see that thing in all its Bubba beauty lol. I've heard of banana clips but never a banana grip! Reminds me of something like this:
Fess
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I can't believe that I am admitting this, but......... at the time, I was kinda proud of myself. I thought that it looked cool. I felt like a gen-u-ine graduate of the Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing (WECSOG)!
Fess
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You are absolutely correct about the money. It is entirely possible that once I get a quote, I will need to change my underwear and then I'll decide that a new barrel was a dumb idea. The problem is that I have contacted a few places and none of them will give me a solid idea of what it will cost. So far, they have all suggested using an available AK barrel to start with, instead of starting with a blank.
What I have run across so far is that the places who do a lot of AK work don't tend to machine barrels from blanks. A classic gunsmith with a lathe doesn't necessarily have the presses and jigs needed to assemble an AK. It is really easy to get the front site canted for example.
What I have run across so far is that the places who do a lot of AK work don't tend to machine barrels from blanks. A classic gunsmith with a lathe doesn't necessarily have the presses and jigs needed to assemble an AK. It is really easy to get the front site canted for example.
How accurate are you looking for?
I usually get 2 moa at 100 yards with my Mak-90 only by iron sights with Golden tiger
Tula/just meh days it's usually about 3+-
(There is no optic options for Chinese.... So I'm stuck with iron)
I think maybe longer barrel? Like the NHM 91 would help with accuracy?
Or just better sights
I usually get 2 moa at 100 yards with my Mak-90 only by iron sights with Golden tiger
Tula/just meh days it's usually about 3+-
(There is no optic options for Chinese.... So I'm stuck with iron)
I think maybe longer barrel? Like the NHM 91 would help with accuracy?
Or just better sights
IUHoosier429
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Not stuck! The AK Master Mount is designed for this. No drilling, no permanent modifications to you gun, and it goes on and off in about 10-15 minutes.
AK Master Mount | Rugged, Reliable AK Accessories
Rugged, reliable AK accessories with no need for drilling, riveting, or gunsmithing. We’re dedicated to improving the AK’s functionality and shooting experience without permanent modifications to the rifle.
akmastermount.com
As for the NHM-91, its thicker and longer barrel might technically help a bit with accuracy, though a gun can only do so much. At the end of the day it's up to the shooter, and I've not seen any discernible improvements on paper with mine. Also, the barrel-mounted bipod isn't exactly precision material and might even reduce accuracy due to harmonics.
Fess
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Since the thicker NHM-91 barrel was brought up ... at one time, I had thought about trying to fit a thicker barrel to my Saiga by utilizing parts from a Yugo, which also has a thicker than standard barrel. Someone told me that the parts wouldn't work, but old, stupid dreams don't die that easily.