Teamwork at Distance

np307

np307

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Okay so this fall I will be going out West for an elk hunt. My maximum distance is 400 yds so we aren't dealing with anything extreme here but I wanted to check in here and see if anyone had tips for the shot process. Myself and a buddy both have tags and will be shooting identical loads, so that simplifies things a little bit.

The process that I was thinking is that the shooter calls the distance, spotter gives the adjustment, shooter dials and takes the shot.

But the one flaw in my plan is the case of an animal that is continuing to move. In that case it seems ideal for the spotter to be calling both distance and adjustment on the fly. The only hesitation with that is it seems (to my uneducated mind) that it will be faster to split calling distance and adjustment.

Its also possible that I'm completely off on how this should go. Any tips for us to work on over the next couple months?
 
If you’re self-limiting to 400 yards, and using a reasonable caliber for elk, your adjustment shouldn’t be more than a couple clicks. Calc your MPBR, probably around 320ish, and hold over. What I’m getting at is that an elk moving through the scrub or trees is likely going to need a quick solution, setup and shot. If you treat it like a Hollywood sniper scene with ranging, solution, and comms, etc you’re likely to miss your window.
 
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Tim said:
If you’re self-limiting to 400 yards, and using a reasonable caliber for elk, your adjustment shouldn’t be more than a couple clicks. Calc your MPBR, probably around 320ish, and hold over. What I’m getting at is that an elk moving through the scrub or trees is likely going to need a quick solution, setup and shot. If you treat it like a Hollywood sniper scene with ranging, solution, and comms, etc you’re likely to miss your window.
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The question came up in my mind after the last session at the range when I was shooting in-between distances.

For context, I have a bdc scope (which I'm sure experienced lr guys scoff at) and I'm zeroed at 100 yds (which kinda screws me on mpbr currently).

Maybe I'm over thinking it but the 3" difference between my 200yd hash and poi at 250 doesn't bother me that much, but the 5" difference between the 300yd hash and the poi at 350 does start to worry me. I'm already almost guaranteed to be in an improvised shooting position (off my pack which I am at least able to practice) so I'm trying to avoid compounding errors.

I'll keep looking at what it would be like to just go off of mpbr. Still a couple months out but I want to solidify this fairly soon.

Edit: oh, and to answer caliber questions I'm shooting 168g Barnes TTSX out of a 30-06
 
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Tim said:
If you’re self-limiting to 400 yards, and using a reasonable caliber for elk, your adjustment shouldn’t be more than a couple clicks. Calc your MPBR, probably around 320ish, and hold over. What I’m getting at is that an elk moving through the scrub or trees is likely going to need a quick solution, setup and shot. If you treat it like a Hollywood sniper scene with ranging, solution, and comms, etc you’re likely to miss your window.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of Todd Jarret when I asked him about the ranging stadia off to the side on his Cmore LPVO scope.

"Todd, tell me about the ranging stadia"

"Ok. It's worthless. If you take the time to use it, you've just lost".
 
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np307 said:
Okay so this fall I will be going out West for an elk hunt. My maximum distance is 400 yds so we aren't dealing with anything extreme here but I wanted to check in here and see if anyone had tips for the shot process. Myself and a buddy both have tags and will be shooting identical loads, so that simplifies things a little bit.

The process that I was thinking is that the shooter calls the distance, spotter gives the adjustment, shooter dials and takes the shot.

But the one flaw in my plan is the case of an animal that is continuing to move. In that case it seems ideal for the spotter to be calling both distance and adjustment on the fly. The only hesitation with that is it seems (to my uneducated mind) that it will be faster to split calling distance and adjustment.

Its also possible that I'm completely off on how this should go. Any tips for us to work on over the next couple months?
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Has it been chrono'd?
 
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Zbizzle911 said:
Honestly I would zero at 200. Anything less hold a bit low. Anything further hold high but never leave the vital area. Elk are huge.


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Click to expand...

10-12" kill zone is the consensus.
 
This is a quick JBM summary for factory Barnes 168's. I didn't factor in your elevation, etic. With all this said I talked to a lot of folks about elk and moose hunting several years ago. Most were hesitant past 300 yards unless it was a 100% clear shot with very few woods or high grass.

Best 30-06 Ammo For Hunting Elk, Deer, Bear, Hogs, & Other Game - Big Game Hunting Blog

thebiggamehuntingblog.com

Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer:BarnesDescription:TTSX BT (Litz)
Caliber:0.308 inWeight:168.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient:0.222 G7 (ICAO)
Muzzle Velocity:2850.0 ft/sDistance to Chronograph:10.0 ft
Sight Height:1.50 inSight Offset:0.00 in
Zero Height:0.00 inZero Offset:0.00 in
Windage:0.000 MOAElevation:0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle:0.0 degCant Angle:0.0 deg
Wind Speed:10.0 mphWind Angle:90.0 deg
Target Speed:10.0 mphTarget Angle:90.0 deg
Target Height:12.0 in
Temperature:59.0 °FPressure:29.92 in Hg
Humidity:0 %Altitude:0.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius:12.0 in
Std. Atmosphere at Altitude:NoPressure is Corrected:Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range:NoTarget Relative Drops:Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing:NoInclude Extra Rows:No
Column 1 Units:1.00 inColumn 2 Units:1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers:No
Output Data
Elevation:3.572 MOAWindage:0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density:0.07647 lb/ft³Speed of Sound:1116.4 ft/s
Maximum PBR:485 ydMaximum PBR Zero:412 yd
Range of Maximum Height:224 ydEnergy at Maximum PBR:1372.3 ft•lbs
Sectional Density:0.253 lb/in²
RangeDanger SpaceDropDropWindageWindageVelocityMachEnergyTimeLeadLead
(yd)(yd)(in)(MOA)(in)(MOA)(ft/s)(none)(ft•lbs)(s)(in)(MOA)
Calculated Table
0***-1.5***0.0***2857.12.5593044.70.0000.0***
1000 to 234-0.0-0.00.70.72646.62.3712612.40.10919.218.3
2000 to 284-3.5-1.73.01.42444.52.1892228.60.22740.019.1
3000 to 357-12.8-4.17.02.22251.32.0171890.40.35562.519.9
400344 to 441-29.0-6.913.03.12067.61.8521594.40.49486.920.8
500464 to 530-53.3-10.221.24.11892.41.6951335.70.646113.621.7
600575 to 622-87.4-13.932.05.11724.61.5451109.30.812142.922.7
700682 to 717-133.2-18.245.76.21563.61.400911.80.994175.023.9
800787 to 813-193.2-23.162.87.51409.41.262740.91.197210.625.1
900890 to 910-270.9-28.783.98.91263.31.131595.21.421250.226.5
1000992 to 1007-370.5-35.4109.610.51128.41.011474.91.673294.428.1
19-Aug-21 08:53, JBM/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi
 
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^ run those same numbers for a 200yd zero.
 
Tim said:
^ run those same numbers for a 200yd zero.
Click to expand...
(yd)(yd)(in)(MOA)(in)(MOA)(ft/s)(none)(ft•lbs)(s)(in)(MOA)
RangeDanger SpaceDropDropWindageWindageVelocityMachEnergyTimeLeadLead
Calculated Table
0***-1.5***0.0***2857.12.5593044.70.0000.0***
1000 to 2341.71.70.70.72646.62.3712612.40.10919.218.3
2000 to 284-0.0-0.03.01.42444.52.1892228.60.22740.019.1
3000 to 357-7.6-2.47.02.22251.32.0171890.40.35562.519.9
400344 to 441-22.0-5.313.03.12067.61.8521594.40.49486.920.8
500464 to 530-44.6-8.521.24.11892.41.6951335.70.646113.621.7
600575 to 622-76.9-12.232.05.11724.61.5451109.30.812142.922.7
700682 to 717-121.0-16.545.76.21563.61.400911.80.994175.023.9
800787 to 813-179.3-21.462.87.51409.41.262740.91.197210.625.1
900890 to 910-255.3-27.183.98.91263.21.131595.21.421250.226.5
1000992 to 1007-353.1-33.7109.610.51128.41.011474.91.673294.428.1
 
Thanks for the input so far. I've played around with different zero yardages in strelok and will probably switch to a 200yd zero. My first hash on the bdc will then be in the neighborhood of 400. I'll try that at the range and see how well it works.

No, my loads have not been chrono'd. I know, I know. I dont know anyone who has one though. My estimate based on dope and the load I'm using has me around 2700-2750 fps.

Yes, elk are huge and they have a large vital area. My comment about trying to minimize compounding errors still sticks in my mind though. Looking through the scope at the animal (nerves) and shooting off pack are a lot different than sitting at a bench looking at steel. I'm doing everything I can to limit those, but I'm also trying to avoid introducing even more variables to the equation.

I have no qualms about taking a 400yd shot from a 30-06 with those 168 ttsx and nobody that I've spoken to out there does either. I'm happy with the energy its carrying at that range and I trust those bullets to expand. In an ideal world I'll be shooting under 300 but I want to be ready for 400 if it is necessary.

I think that addresses everything I've seen. Thanks again everyone for your input so far, and please keep it coming.
 
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If I was spending the money to go out there and do the do, I’d split the cost of a magnetospeed at minimum to have good velocity numbers. A lot of difference in the environment and feet above sea level.
 
Rockchucker said:
If I was spending the money to go out there and do the do, I’d split the cost of a magnetospeed at minimum to have good velocity numbers. A lot of difference in the environment and feet above sea level.
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I'm going to keep poking around and see if I know somebody who has one I can borrow but I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Our first day out there will be set aside for confirming zero anyway.

As a side note, this isn't that expensive of a trip. Tag, gas, food. No guide fees, plane tickets, etc.
 
np307 said:
I'm going to keep poking around and see if I know somebody who has one I can borrow but I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Our first day out there will be set aside for confirming zero anyway.

As a side note, this isn't that expensive of a trip. Tag, gas, food. No guide fees, plane tickets, etc.
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Someone on here is bound to come along and offer to let you run some shots over their chrono. If you want to make a trip to Old Fort you can use my Magneto or the club's LabRadar.
 
np307 said:
I'm going to keep poking around and see if I know somebody who has one I can borrow but I'll keep your suggestion in mind. Our first day out there will be set aside for confirming zero anyway.

As a side note, this isn't that expensive of a trip. Tag, gas, food. No guide fees, plane tickets, etc.
Click to expand...
Which version of Strelok do you have, basic or did you pay for the Pro?
Not sure if the basic has it, but if you have Pro, you dont need a Chrono. Use the Trajectory validation tool at the bottom right of the App.
Zero your rifle at 100, shoot a group at 300 without any holdover or adjustment, measure the drop, plug it in the verification function and it will give you a velocitiy that will be very close.
The best and most accurate. results come from maximizing distance between zero and test group.
Go back, use that velocity to recalculate your mpbr, rezero, and set your dope. Then verify dope at distance.
This can be done on the range in 20 rounds or less with no chrono. 5 for verifying 100 yd zero, 5 for group at distance, 5 for rezero at mpbr/chosen distance, 5 to verify at distance.
 
draco88 said:
The best and most accurate. results come from maximizing distance between zero and test group.
Click to expand...

Your post is spot on; this is a great way to backdoor your way into velocity. The only nit I'd pick would be...

The best and most accurate results come from measuring the drop at several distances beyond your zero. 3-4 good data points make the end result surprisingly accurate. A single data point a couple hundred yards past zero is more than close enough for the OPs purpose.
 
Tim said:
Your post is spot on; this is a great way to backdoor your way into velocity. The only nit I'd pick would be...

The best and most accurate results come from measuring the drop at several distances beyond your zero. 3-4 good data points make the end result surprisingly accurate. A single data point a couple hundred yards past zero is more than close enough for the OPs purpose.
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Yeah, I figured since he's not shooting 1k or more, a single point would be ok.
The furtherest distance I did single point verification was a 6.5G AR at 500 from a 100 zero. The reworked dopes prove dead on at 600, which incidentally, is at the very end of, if not a bit past, my current capability.
 
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draco88 said:
Which version of Strelok do you have, basic or did you pay for the Pro?
Not sure if the basic has it, but if you have Pro, you dont need a Chrono. Use the Trajectory validation tool at the bottom right of the App.
Zero your rifle at 100, shoot a group at 300 without any holdover or adjustment, measure the drop, plug it in the verification function and it will give you a velocitiy that will be very close.
The best and most accurate. results come from maximizing distance between zero and test group.
Go back, use that velocity to recalculate your mpbr, rezero, and set your dope. Then verify dope at distance.
This can be done on the range in 20 rounds or less with no chrono. 5 for verifying 100 yd zero, 5 for group at distance, 5 for rezero at mpbr/chosen distance, 5 to verify at distance.
Click to expand...
So I've been doing the slow version of this, which is to just keep changing the in-app velocity until it matches dope. the range I've been shooing at is steel only beyond 100 though so my results aren't perfect (but close enough that I'm on target). I'll be heading to a different range in the next week or two though which has paper stands to 250 which should be enough for me to get the necessary data points.
 
np307 said:
So I've been doing the slow version of this, which is to just keep changing the in-app velocity until it matches dope. the range I've been shooing at is steel only beyond 100 though so my results aren't perfect (but close enough that I'm on target). I'll be heading to a different range in the next week or two though which has paper stands to 250 which should be enough for me to get the necessary data points.
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Best of luck, really hope you get it figured out and get a monster.

Oh, yeah, remember CFF Rule 4...pics or it didnt happen 😎
We're all looking forward to seeing your massive elk
 
draco88 said:
Best of luck, really hope you get it figured out and get a monster.

Oh, yeah, remember CFF Rule 4...pics or it didnt happen 😎
We're all looking forward to seeing your massive elk
Click to expand...
Thanks, I definitely will. And for all my low level questions, I'm actually feeling pretty confident based on my time at the range so far. This is just me trying to whittle down variables.
 
I've hunted out west quite a few times for mule deer, elk, and pronghorn and it can be very challenging. Elevation can play havoc with your system too. I once hunted at high elevations with a group of guys and the outfitter (no guide) gave us all a quart bottle of water and he wanted to see them empty when he picked us up, whether we were thirsty or not. By the 3rd day some of the guys had quit and had nose bleeds and were dehydrated. It sounds like you and your buddy have drawn tags and are planning on doing it on your own(?). Shooting across canyons and draws can be tricky even for the folks that were born there and hunt every year. And I'm not even going to discuss WIND! Remember that you have to respect the animal and try your best for a one-shot concise clean kill. Take a good range finder and if you are going to still hunt range every significant feature out to the distance you feel comfortable shooting and make yourself a simple range card. I still do it on occasion for whitetail when I get invited to hunt a new area that may include fields, ditches, corners, etc. If you can find a safe place to practice get a buddy to staple a few 12 inch paper plates at unknown distances and shoot them off-hand, prone, leaning against a tree, from an elevated platform, whatever, say within a 10 second time period. An elk can cover a lot of ground in 10 seconds. And most of the time when you shoot one they either run uphill and drop dead if you happen to be at the bottom shooting up or they run downhill and then drop dead when you are at the top. Then you have to skin, quarter, and pack it out. And please check the regs and the laws out there. I was always hunting for antlers and most of the areas I drew a tag for had antler restrictions (4 on one side if I recall) They take their big game animals very seriously and frown on folks that don't know what they are doing by either throwing them in jail or dishing out heavy fines. Have fun! ;) And yes, we want pics too!
 
One more thing. Get in shape before you go. If you are hunting in the mountains ( above 5,000 feet) a good way to exercise is to put on a pack with a few dumbell weights and run up and down the bleachers of your local high school with a dry sock in your mouth. :D Elevation is a tough teacher if you are from the "east". The first day or so at high elevation you will climb up the side of a mountain a hundred yards and be out of breath and trying to swallow your feet. After a few more days you will be able to climb 200 to 300 yards uphill before collapsing. Only time will help your body adapt to the thinner air. By the time you get used to it the trip will be over.

I'm hoping that this is not your first trip out there and you are aware of this stuff and I'm just boring you. ;)
 
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Downeast said:
I'm hoping that this is not your first trip out there and you are aware of this stuff and I'm just boring you. ;)
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Don't worry, not our first trip out there. First time specifically hunting elk but we've experienced Wyoming before. Definitely understand elevation and regs and the Wyoming wind and mud. This will be up in the thin air for sure. Ive done plenty of walking and hiking with my pack loaded and cut 20 lbs this year.
 
Your original post asked about movers. To answer your question; you either use a “lead” where you attempt to track your scope picture with the target and break your shot to coincide with the targets movement or you use the “ambush” method and aim at a fixed spot and let the target move into the shot. You’re breaking your shot as the target moves closer to the crosshair versus moving the crosshair with the target as it moves. Both have different applications, but both work for hunting purposes.
If you’re self-limiting to 500 and under; its a one-man job. Your caliber choice should have no problems at 500, unless you’ve got some really stupid wind which you probably shouldn’t shoot in anyway.
I agree wholeheartedly with practicing on “unknown distance targets” as much as you can. Elevation and light play visual tricks; you’ll shoot high on a downhill shot and low on uphills unless you think about it first.
Good on you for posing the question. It’s a testament to your honesty and hunting ethics.
And, yes, pics or it didn’t happen !!
 
Okay, I figured I would update this thread with what I've been up to. First, I did get a close-enough velocity worked out, I'm right around 2700 fps which is what I assumed to begin with. Second, I switched over to a 200 yard zero and am very glad that I did. Anything up to 275 I am completely confident with no holdover, dialing, etc. I'm still going to use the BDC for 300-400 and I have those ranges marked and mostly memorized. Finally, the practice is paying off and I'm feeling a lot better about my shooting. 200 is feeling much more like a chip shot than it did a month ago. Thanks for everyone's advice through this thread.

As to the original question, I think a combination of xtp308's mention of pre-ranging landmarks (which is what I do when bow hunting, not sure why I didn't naturally assume that I could do the same thing) and my buddy calling ranges if something happens fast will be perfectly fine for what we need.

I've got all my data loaded into strelok included elevation, pressure, and temperature of sighting in so we will see what things look like about 8000ft higher up in a little less than a month.
 
300 yd zero, if the Elk is HUGE in the optic hold a tad low. If its avg size, hold center, if its a little small, holt a tad high.

Keep it simple.
 
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