Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by tanstaafl72555, May 31, 2020.
No, you said that.
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That’s why they wouldn’t hire the bad ones if they could help it. If there is a market for security then they will figure it out. Some companies would go out of business, sure. More will start. The ones that aren’t good at hiring would quickly fold after their insurance rates shot up.
Sounded to me like you were saying it wouldn’t work because we’d just get the same bad apples, so we shouldn’t even bother trying a different solution. What did I miss?
Why doesnt the police just do this now? lol
But, your point with 'if they could help it' is important - youre implying they still might employ those folks and then, well, we're back to where we started.
You are reading a lot into that. Was just pointing out an issue. Have a great evenin.
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No process would be perfect. Between initial hiring and seeing how they perform on the job I think it could be far far better. And less powerful unions, if at all (not public employee unions in particular).
You’ve indirectly just stumbled on a large part of the problem today. We have a system with near infinite resources whose function is not justice or even fundamental right and wrong, but to bring those resources against people, who have to use their own resources in defense and crush those people. That is, unless it’s too much like work (being govt. employees and all). They’ll go after someone stealing a $100 moped, but commit fraud, taking property under false pretenses, and text book embezzlement... nah.
Oh no. All will be wonderful and we will eat perpetual cotton candy that grows on trees while riding gentle pastel unicorns. Sigh.
This is not the argument at all and attacking a straw man is actually not an argument at all.....
The question is whether PRIVATE OWNERSHIP is (in general and specifically in this case) MORE EFFECTIVE than state directed and controlled entities.
EVERY SINGLE TIME private ownership is tried, it is more effective, less corrupt, less expensive, and more accountable. It is not angelic, just better.
Like Blackwater? Like Halliburton?
You honest to God believe these are examples of "private" companies?
Just for the record then, "PRIVATE" should not include federally funded direct government subcontractors, liable only to their federal employers. I am a bit exasperated that I should have to say this in the first place.
And you honest to God believe that there will be totally private police companies?
So these private police won't be able to take Govt. contracts? That doesn't do much to protect the little man that can't pay their fees.
Maybe if you give some examples that support
I can follow. Until then I think private militias in 3rd world shithole or policing agencies that are effectively owned by a tyrannical dictator.
It is called "security." Want ads are full of requests.
One of the difficulties here is that the existence of federal power and money "crowd out" the private market.... IN THE SPHERE IN WHICH THEY OPERATE. There are, though, tons of ships that cruise by Somalia who have hired private contractors for security. There is this example which I posted upstream: https://twitter.com/CalebJHull/status/1266883740216823814, but there are tons of others, INCLUDING the current spate of private citizens who emulated the Koreans during the Rodney King riots. Private events are LOADED with individual companies contracting "private police"
I find it bizarre that I am even having to post these examples to you, as they are everywhere.
The objection that these private companies are liable to abuse is certainly true, BUT COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. The contractors (and ultimately the public which hires them, or submits to the dictators who hire them) are going to reflect the amount of tyranny, abuse, corruption and wrongful use of force which the society will allow. Arguing that "abuse will occur" after some of the spectacular nonsense we have seen from the current order is like complaining that we will get our socks wet if it rains during a drought.
Sorry @tanstaafl72555 but hiring private security for an office building, an event, a stadium or a transport vessel is simply in no way comparable to the function of the police. One is paid to protect my stuff and my people, the other has a much broader mandate. Perhaps that mandate is too broad, perhaps not, but the solution you think you’ve identified is a non-starter as best I can tell.
Fixed it for you. I am always surprised at how people are unable to distinguish the two.
Both exist.... sometimes side by side. Neither are perfect, but one is clearly superior to the other, every time it is tried.
Persons addicted to the idea of state power bring up the same cliche'd objections over and over and over.... there will be corruption, who will police the policers?, justice will be for sale to the highest bidder, who will protect the rights of the poor?
I understand the objections/questions. They should be raised.... HOWEVER, the people who perpetually raise them have (in my experience) absolutely NO interest in the answers, either from a historical or from a social history perspective. A quick perusal of mises.org, or Rothbard's works, or Walter Block (EXCELLENT!!) or Hans=Hermann Hoppe will give tons of historical and rational demonstrations why the objections are not quite as telling as one might suspect. Grab a look, sometime.
I've heard such good things about those privately run prisons.
I suppose that is summed up (as you state!) in the idea of why the police exist. My idea of "policing" is primarily to maintain the peace (thus the old monkiker of "peace officer," vs the less desireable "law enforcement officer", which I detest) and restrain aggression. Marshalls to serve warrants and apprehend fugitives (we also have a long history of private contractors in that realm)... even "letters of marque" are written into our very Constitution as an incentive to private operators for military matters. For all the problems there (and of course there will be problems, no one I know denies that), it beats having a standing army, which is why the framers refused to designate any budget item for the army (navy was different in that it was considered primarily defensive) longer than 2 years.
The penalties for aggressing against others should be either 1) financial (for financial crimes) 2) public beatings (LOVE Singapore's approach) or 3) death. -POOF!- no more prisons
The very idea of "prison" comes from 19th century humanist romantics who dreamed of "department of corrections" being schools for moral reform. Jails should be temporary and local, only for the purpose of holding people for trial or until punishment.
Intro in Portuguese
Speech (about an hour... I set my playback speed to 1.25 so it is about 45 mins.
Chapters 11 and 12 of "A New Liberty" by Murray Rothbard is available free here:
Lots of historical examples of private policing.
In North Carolina, private police are certified company police agencies governed by the North Carolina Department of Justice chapter 74E of the Company Police Act. Under 74E Company Police in North Carolina can, and do make arrests, and write citations for violations of the law the same as any municipal police officer. Company Police jurisdiction is on any real property that they own, possess and control, or have been contracted to protect by the owner or person in control, unless they are in continuous pursuit for a crime that was committed in their jurisdiction or investigating a crime that occurred in their jurisdiction. Private police in North Carolina must meet or exceed all training and certification requirements as any municipal, county or state law enforcement officer.
The largest private police forces in the United States are the railroad police employed by the major Class I railroads.
In South Carolina, all Security Officers have the authority and power to make an arrest just as Sheriff's Deputies do (although this is unique for the USA). In (Spring Valley HOA) Columbia, South Carolina, Private Officers respond to calls for service, run traffic radar, make arrests and use blue lights. Security Officers in South Carolina are Law Enforcement under state law, case law and the Attorney General's opinions, and are authorized by the state to issue Uniform Traffic Tickets to violators and make arrests for violations of state laws. Security Officers are considered Private Law Enforcement Officers.
In Boston, Massachusetts, more than 100 housing projects and low-income apartment buildings are some times patrolled by private security. A few of these companies employ Special Police Officers that are licensed and trained through the City of Boston. These Special Police officers do meet the state's standard of a special police officer. These Special Police Officers in Boston get their power from BPD rule 400
The above came from a VERY QUICK Wiki search
Most important IMHO, if I start a private police force for my home and office, with me as commandant and sole officer, can I acquire current production select-fire items as a law enforcement agency? The cost of training and insurance might be higher than the cost of paying the SOT, but an interesting option.
I like the way you are thinking
Interesting you would reference bounty killers as a good thing. Lord knows their history is all about restraint and fairness.
People think the cops are corrupt now, wait until their only master is $$$.
I think it still beats the "professional and just" record of killing nursing mothers and cyanide gassing religious sects en masse, but maybe that is just me.
EDIT: they did not cyanide gas ALL of them. Let's be clear. Some they burned to death.
In fact, in the 20th century, you can find abundant evidence of individual private entities killing others.. sometimes for pay...., but if you want to see some REAL heavy duty washing the floor with blood, well, baby, you have to have a GOVERNMENT for that. Hundreds of millions in the commie states, but millions more by the "good guys" (that is us!) with firebombing cities, nuking them, wiping out gook and hadji villages, bombing civilians (MOVE in Philly), killing religious cults en masse (men women and children! yay!), well, lets go for the big time. Now, remind me again how callous and ruthless and merciless those contracted bounty hunters were. While you are at it, tell me about the private contractors who went in and ethnically cleansed entire Indian nations, breaking every treaty we ever signed with them. The state is sooooo... sooooo "humane."
@tanstaafl72555 In that short video he made, Greg Anderson, that Port of Seattle cop that got fired for making a video telling other cops to stop violating people's rights, he made a statement about how police "authority" is an illusion and if the people wanted to they could strip the cops of their badges and guns in minutes given how massively outnumbered they are. If the people don't want to be policed, they won't be. Time for people to start choosing to not be policed. For that matter, mass civil disobedience and refusing to pay homage to or acknowledge the system would go a long way towards destroying it.
Arguing that the STATE is more just and humane, while money driven contractors are more corrupt is the most odd argument I can think of today:
Here we have a STATE lab, which found that George Floyd died of a heart attack, unrelated to asphyxiation. We have a PRIVATE lab, which says clearly the guy died of asphyxiation.
And we have guys wide eyed and straight faced telling us you can't trust the PRIVATE sector and that state entities are "more accountable." It is the most odd thing I have ever seen.
Ok, so serious question. How do we fund these private agencies? Everyone in their area pay a fee monthly/annually? Who sets this price? Can we negotiate this price if we think it is too high? Currently we cant, so we are forced to just pay our taxes, but it seems that trading a tax for a fee is a zero sum game. And I doubt the government is going to slice out what we are currently paying and "Just not tax us to cover that fee anymore", they will insist the money is for other things. So it seems like we would really end up just paying more for just another local protection racket compared to the one we have now, and the main trade off is supposed accountability.
Private but governed by the state of NC DOJ? That doesn't sound all that private to me?
Ah, but because they're contractors that means that they're employed by a business and we could then each open our own 'private police' business and ourselves be employees which in turn get the special privileges.
Dibs on Elite Personal Security, LLC.
@tanstaafl72555 you’re falling into the trap you warned us to stay out of, ALL policing will involve abuses. Stop talking about that problem because it is unavoidable.
To @B00ger s question, how to fund? My question, if I have police and you have police and we disagree on where our property line is who decides and who enforces? When a drunk driver comes down the road and runs into 5 parked cars before continuing on their way, who investigates? Does a store buy insurance or protection against criminal activity, and how are crimes against the store pursued? Someone burns down your house, do your private police hire arson investigators and how is the case pursued? Your child dies unexpectedly in the hospital, does your private policeman figure out if there was a crime? Daughter is raped at a fraternity party, does your private policeman travel 500 miles to investigate? How would a private police force deal with a better funded and equipped and motivated adversary, say a drug cartel? A murder is expensive to prove, and doesn’t bring the person back, would anyone pay the cost or do we revert to street justice and lynching?
my guess is that your response will be “who will build the roads” but there are a million situations where it seems that having a community police force is preferable to a hodgepodge of private security arrangements.
As compared to state run?
Separate names with a comma.