The Trigger Reset Question

Discussion in 'Training Classes' started by jlw, Dec 1, 2019.

  1. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    Link to article.

    I think that the historical context behind techniques is important. The "why" is as important as the "how", and sometimes a technique is taught for the wrong reasons.
     
  2. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Senior Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    And sometimes the "instructor" is a legend in their own mind....
     
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  3. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Grip it hard and slap it.
     
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  4. Me.

    Me. Active Member

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    I first heard of “trigger reset” just five or six years ago. From a retired state trooper who had grudgingly gone from a Colt Python to a Glock during his time on the force.

    Having never fired a Glock, I didn’t know what he was going on about. I was a 1911 guy. And I had an XD.

    A few months back I got a Glock. Even with the ZEV trigger... the trigger SUCKS on Glocks. Sucks. I can see where people might care about reset, just to try to think about coming close to a trigger that doesn’t suck.

    I still don’t understand the fascination with “reset”.


    I guess it’s still better than DA/SA.
     
  5. pistolshooter77

    pistolshooter77 Happy to be here

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    I have spent a bit of time thinking on this one in the past, both from a gunsmith's perspective and a shooter's. While the technique probably goes back further, most of the folks I know who are big reset shooters either shoot a Glock exclusively, or learned to shoot on one. Some of them can do it at a very high level. Guys who shoot this technique and get very fast at it (.15 splits or faster), can induce an odd problem when they switch to 1911's. They can make the hammer follow almost at will. People who come off of the trigger between shots cannot reproduce the problem with the same gun, even at the same speed. Rob Leatham is pretty famous for pulling his finger fully off the trigger between shots, then prepping for the next shot. I tend to be a prep, break, release... prep, break, release shooter. I never consciously feel reset except when I am doing precision shooting with an AR. The reset does not fire the pistol. The part of the trigger pull I want to focus on is the part that makes the gun go bang! You can't fire another shot until you let go of the trigger from the previous one. Miculek is very conscious of the reset for revolver shooting, because he figured out a long time ago that he could shoot a wheelgun a lot faster if he got off of the trigger just as rapidly as he was pulling it. Below is a link to an article talking about the Leatham/Jarrett trigger technique. There are numerous videos of Leatham talking about trigger control.

    https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/a-sweeping-trigger-technique/138835
     
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  6. Beef15

    Beef15 B or somesuch

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    I just shoot the things, some times it's .13 splits, sometimes it's .5+, sometimes there's no split. Most times the bullet is in the vicinity of where I want it.

    I like the reset short, it takes a minute sometimes to program the finger to come off enough when they're long.
     
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  7. Catfish

    Catfish E Pluribus Mendacium Charter Member

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    Yup, Glock triggers suck. And yet some guys shoot them *REALLY* well. I wonder what that means?
     
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  8. KnotRight

    KnotRight Well-Known Member Charter Member Benefactor Life Member

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    The only gun that I have that has a very short reset is the Walther PPQ &m PPS. I tried to shoot it right at the reset and found that it cost me more time then not concentrating on the reset.
     
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  9. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member Supporting Member

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    When @BatteryOaksBilly and @Jeppo convinced me to get a S&W Model 39, based on the trigger, I was surprised at how much faster you can shoot that gun. It has a very short reset.
     
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  10. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    It is simply THE BEST STOCK trigger ever insofar as reset.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Member

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    dang, you got me missing my 1911 and window shopping for a 2011. Gotta give my 1911 a little more love next year.

     
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  12. Jeppo

    Jeppo Very LARGE Member Supporting Member

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    @MacEntyre
    The trigger is even better on a nickel 39-2, like the one currently listed in the BST. :D
     
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  13. MacEntyre

    MacEntyre Shoot on Sight! Charter Member Supporting Member

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    I have been tempted to get that'n and sell mine...
     
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  14. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Better get a move on. I might.....I mean somebody might get it to have a pair of fellow sophisticates in nickel.
     
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  15. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    Michael Jordan jumped from the foul line to make dunks too. ;)

    Sweeping the trigger works if one has sufficient grip strength. A study of USPSA GMs found an average grip strength of over 100 lbs. I find the "most" people can't exert that much grip pressure on a pistol.
     
  16. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    I ran an issued S&W 4006 for seven years. I agree. The old S&Ws have a wonderful reset.
     
  17. Hashknife

    Hashknife Active Member Supporting Member

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    1. Prep
    2. Pin to rear
    3. Reset
    4. Prep

    4 things going on.
    Only one deals with the actual firing. (#2)
    If one disturbs the sights during #2, the shot will be pulled off target.
    One has to do all 4 correctly to shoot accurately at speed.
     
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  18. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    But we see above that Jarret and Leatham do not do that, and shoot considerably fast and accurate.

    Weak/off hand grip is more important than any of those things for shooting fast, imo.
     
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  19. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    I have seen Leatham shoot. Standing right beside him. He, Bill Wilson, and several more top teir shooters Slap the Crap outta the trigger. It's all in what you are trying to get done. In close, fast, with palm sized groups being your goal, slap away. Past 7 yards with 2 inch groups being your goal, see @Hashknife Helpful Hints above.
     
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  20. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    One can accomplish 1,3 and 4, without pinning to the rear.
     
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  21. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    With slaps we usually see a more inconsistent cadence and a harder time controlling split times. We also find it is harder to learn to control the trigger at distance if you slap, but easier to slap in an up-close engagement firing quickly if you are used to control. I prep, squeeze, hold, release, and squeeze again and the less wasted movement makes me faster on the trigger. It is all about consistency and economy of motion. Granted, I preach pinning to the rear and preach that trigger is most important so maybe I am biased. But I also have filled 567 slots this year and find its what helps the majority of students get consistently better so I guess it works! :)
     
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  22. pistolshooter77

    pistolshooter77 Happy to be here

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    While I did reference the trigger sweeping technique from Leatham and Jarrett, releasing the trigger fully between shots does not necessarily equate to a trigger slapping technique. The stages of the trigger pull... prep, break, pin (or not), and release could be separated and viewed independently. Differing techniques can be mixed and matched depending on the type of shot and accuracy v/s speed requirements. This is much the way that sight focus will vary tremendously depending on the type of shot and speed requirements. While a given shooter may slap the trigger for 5 yard shots at large targets, this does not mean that they may not have a very precise squeeze in their toolbox for 50 yard shots at small targets. My point is that since the pinning/reset/release of the trigger has nothing to do with the actual firing of the pistol, it is of far less importance than the prep and break steps. When anyone below probably an A class USPSA level of shooting is spending a lot of time worrying about reset, they are most likely wasting training time that they could be using to break controlled shots and call those shots accurately.

    However... there are top level shooters who use vastly differing techniques for trigger manipulation. I am in no way presenting my views as the best or only way to do anything. I just think that a lot of the emphasis placed on pinning and then releasing to the reset point may be misplaced.
     
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  23. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    I think it is crucial. Again, just my experience. Not saying I am right or know it all. Pinning allows consistant split times, consistent trigger placement, less wasted movement, and more accurate follow up shots, again, just in my experience.
     
  24. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    Exactly what I was talking about above. It entirely rests on What the Job is for the shot being sent.
     
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  25. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    As I wrote in the article, one of the techniques is to releases passed the reset point and then prep again to the wall. I've been personally working toward this technique as it has a lesser chance of trigger freeze. I just don't break contact with the trigger.
     
  26. Apex Defense Group

    Apex Defense Group Active Member Sponsor

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    Exactly. My finger never leaves the trigger. It goes microscopically past the reset point where I am at the wall and can slowly apply pressure against the wall again breaking a second shot.
     
  27. Catfish

    Catfish E Pluribus Mendacium Charter Member

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    I always thought of it as a training tool. Press. Pin. Wax on. Reset. Wax off.

    At some point you move on to other tools...
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  28. Me.

    Me. Active Member

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    Not on my 1911s or Ruger MkII.

    #overtravelSetscrew ;)
     
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  29. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    The sear still has to reengage, thus resetting the trigger. I have both an MKII and a 1911 with overtravel screws, and 1, 3, and 4 can absolutely be accomplished during recoil.
     
  30. Me.

    Me. Active Member

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    But you wrote that we can do things without pinning to the rear. My guns won't go 'bang' without pinning the trigger to the rear, due to the over travel screw being right there at trigger break.
    No pin, no hammer-fall.
     
  31. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    Pinning to the rear in this context means holding the trigger to the rear throughout the recoil cycle and then letting it forward once the sights have settled back onto the target.
     
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  32. Me.

    Me. Active Member

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    That makes sense. Thanks!
     
  33. JBoyette

    JBoyette Well-Known Member Vendor

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    Trigger re-set is a skill that a performance-minded shooter needs to learn for quality personal development from a plinker into a marksman. The skill that trigger reset develops is a better understanding of how to apply the fundamentals of marksmanship and a solid foundation of malfunction clearance over a wider range of gun-related situations that interact with environmental elements. This interaction between the intent of the shooter and the environment directly exposes the malfunction cleared from the deer in the headlight shooter, looking at the former bang-stick. With more quality time physically shooting with rounds downrange, the act of pinning turns into slapping, all in an experienced merge of an actionable blur. Until you do not get a reset, the lack of a trigger reset must activate the correct malfunction process at the subconscious level. If a shooter is not at this point, they need to develop this fundamental level of performance if they want to move forward.
     
  34. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    Here is a video of Rob Leatham talking about "jerking" the trigger. He also mentions shooting tens of thousands of rounds per year. Note that the single drill he is demoing is a 55 round drill. I'm envious, in a positive way, of the time and budget to be able to train and practice that much.
     
  35. BatteryOaksBilly

    BatteryOaksBilly A SHOOTER Benefactor Life Member Supporting Member

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    He once said "I am the world's highest paid maker of once fired brass". Nice fellow too. I have atarget hanging in my Gun Room he signed for RS. I got to handle his guns he was shooting that day. An XD and a 1911. Both with 2 pound triggers.
     
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  36. NKD

    NKD Senior Member Benefactor Kimberless Supporting Member

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    Great vid. So much good stuff in there.
     
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  37. jlw

    jlw New Member Vendor

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    I have not met him personally. A mutual friend recounted that recently Rob expressed that his eyes were getting bad and that he could barely see the holes in the target at 50 yards now.