Thermal Scopes: Best bang for the buck...

I’ve looked into this and concluded best bang for the buck is either the AGM Rattler or Bering Hogster, take your pick of resolution.

After watching many different videos, it seems like each has its strengths as far as image quality goes. Otherwise you’re comparing magnification options, mounts, and build quality.
 
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Jerzsubbie said:
I’ve looked into this and concluded best bang for the buck is either the AGM Rattler or Bering Hogster, take your pick of resolution.

After watching many different videos, it seems like each has its strengths as far as image quality goes. Otherwise you’re comparing magnification options, mounts, and build quality.
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Of those you listed, in your research had the better build quality?
 
Average Joe said:
Of those you listed, in your research had the better build quality?
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I just looked at both, on their respective parent websites. The Rattler is a small, stand alone scope. The Hogster mounts in front of another scope. Just raising the difference, for everyone's awareness.

I don't want another clip on. I'm going for a stand alone thermal scope.

Edit: it looks like Bering makes a clip on and a full scope called the Hogster. The stand alone hogster comes in 3 different models in different price ranges.

The Hogster and the Rattler have an MSRP of $2600, but can be found cheaper on sale at different websites.
 
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One of the most eye opening things to me was how important the magnification is. I saw a video a while back that explained it very well but basically if you buy a 1.5x w a 640 resolution chip, but you’re always turning it up to 3x to see what you’re shooting, you’re effectively using a 320 chip yet you paid the premium for a 640.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
One of the most eye opening things to me was how important the magnification is. I saw a video a while back that explained it very well but basically if you buy a 1.5x w a 640 resolution chip, but you’re always turning it up to 3x to see what you’re shooting, you’re effectively using a 320 chip yet you paid the premium for a 640.
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Good to know!

So, the more you zoom in, the worse the video quality?
 
Pulsar Thermion

I'm running an XM30 and am quite happy. I had an ATN model similar to a Bering and it was problematic both in the unit and with support (especially support from Optics Planet) Support with Pulsar has been great and unless it's changed, most of their products are not Chineseium. Maybe not US, but not Chinesium. Mine also has video recording and Wi-Fi feed, so others can see what you're seeing.

You want a rifle scope form factor for flexibility in mounting. The integrated fixed mounts don't always fit properly and they tend to be top heavy. Rifle scope form factor allows you to use standard rings and mounts for various heights, offset, QD, etc.

Magnification goes both ways. Start with too high a base power and it becomes difficult to scan or work close in. Even working with 3x is a fairly narrow field.

Based on the digital zoom as mentioned in a previous post, the higher resolution the better.

Be sure there is a way to provide external power or batteries are easy to change. Most now provide some sort of USB Connector for external power and charging.

Don't buy from Optics Planet.

Check with our supporter, Doug at Camera Land. He carries Pulsar and others, I believe. It's where I got mine. @gr8fuldoug

pulsarnv.com

Thermal Scopes, Monoculars & Binoculars | Night Vision Optics | Pulsar

Discover innovative hunting tech at Pulsar USA - home to optics, night vision, thermal, sights, scopes, binoculars, and monoculars for North America.
pulsarnv.com pulsarnv.com

The Thermion Line
pulsarnv.com

View the Thermion Riflescope Collection by Pulsar USA

Discover innovative hunting tech at Pulsar USA - home to optics, night vision, thermal, sights, scopes, binoculars, and monoculars for North America.
pulsarnv.com pulsarnv.com

If I were to buy a new one right now, I would seriously consider this one, if I decided not to spend more for the rifle scope form factor Thermion. I believe this was was created to replace the XM-30 I have and hit a popular price point.
pulsarnv.com

Buy a Talion XQ38 from Pulsar USA, A Powerful Thermal Riflescope

Pulsar's Talion XQ38 is a powerful thermal device with 384x288 resolution, detecting heat up to 1475 yards away, and variable magnification of 2.5-10x.
pulsarnv.com pulsarnv.com
 
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I have a Bering Super Hogster and absolutely love it. It's built like a tank and the footprint is small. IQ is great and the ability to record/snap photos is awesome. Easy to ID/engage within 250yds or so.

@Jerzsubbie you're pretty close to me if you ever want to come check it out.
 
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Stupid question: Does thermal work in the daytime? Can you point it at the tree line and see an animal's heat signature while the sun is still up?
 
I’m running a liemke merlin 13 by infray, and it’s alright, I wanted something that can weapon mount or have handheld.
I will be upgrading this year and either selling this one or using it as a loaner setup.

So far I like this little unit, it works well, but there are better thing out there for sure
 
Cluck Norris said:
I’m running a liemke merlin 13 by infray, and it’s alright, I wanted something that can weapon mount or have handheld.
I will be upgrading this year and either selling this one or using it as a loaner setup.

So far I like this little unit, it works well, but there are better thing out there for sure
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Do you mind fielding some clip-on questions from someone definitely in the market for a weapon-mounted thermal optic next year ... but on the fence about clip-on versus a dedicated thermal scope?
 
I have a scope and a handheld monocular I am interested in selling. If anyone is interested send me a PM.

ATN Thor4 640 2.5-25
FLIR Scion OTM236
The ATN has worked great for 2 years and the monocular is new in box.
 
Took this a few minutes ago to give you guys an idea. This is the Super Hogster A3... took the dogs out in pitch black. Keep in mind the image quality through the optic is much better - the video file is heavily compressed to save space on the internal memory. Also settings (brightness/contrast/etc.) can be dialed in for your particular scenario. Note at :36 how you can see his breath on the ground.

 
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Main reason I went for the Hogster - you can clip it off the rifle and use it to scan or for fun like this. It is small and lightweight enough to toss in a jacket pocket. Then, clip it right back on and you are ready to rock. You can't scan with clip-ons. It has a rock-solid LaRue mount with perfect return to zero and 4 zero'ing profiles (swap it to another weapon, select that saved zero profile and you're gtg.)
 
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patina said:
Main reason I went for the Hogster - you can clip it off the rifle and use it to scan or for fun like this. It is small and lightweight enough to toss in a jacket pocket. Then, clip it right back on and you are ready to rock. You can't scan with clip-ons. It has a rock-solid LaRue mount with perfect return to zero and 4 zero'ing profiles (swap it to another weapon, select that saved zero profile and you're gtg.)
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I think we likely need to clarify certain terminology:
  • As I understand the terms, @patina 's Super Hogster A3 is quick detachable aka 'QD' (i.e. to a rail) ... but not a clip-on device.
  • As I understand the terms, @Cluck Norris' Liemke Merlin-13 is NOT quick detachable aka 'QD' (i.e. to a rail) ... but IS a clip-on device.

Key to the above is that 'clip-on' devices (also referred to as 'pre-mounted' devices) mount onto a day scope (ahead of it, hence the 'pre-' in 'pre-mounted') by either clipping onto the objective lens (hence 'clip-on') ... or QD'ing to a rail ahead of the objective lens. The benefit touted with such 'clip-on' devices is that they can be removed and used for scanning, but the drawback is that zooming the day scope is merely zooming in on the clip-on device's display (meaning one must adjust the clip-on device, not the day-scope ... and it's in an atradational position).
 
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surrealone said:
I think we likely need to clarify certain terminology:
  • As I understand the terms, @patina 's Super Hogster A3 is quick detachable aka 'QD' (i.e. to a rail) ... but not a clip-on device.
  • As I understand the terms, @Cluck Norris' Liemke Merlin-13 is NOT quick detachable aka 'QD' (i.e. to a rail) ... but IS a clip-on device.

Key to the above is that 'clip-on' devices (also referred to as 'pre-mounted' devices) mount onto a day scope (ahead of it, hence the 'pre-' in 'pre-mounted') by either clipping onto the objective lens (hence 'clip-on') ... or QD'ing to a rail ahead of the objective lens. The benefit touted with such 'clip-on' devices is that they can be removed and used for scanning, but the drawback is that zooming the day scope is merely zooming in on the clip-on device's display (meaning one must adjust the clip-on device, not the day-scope ... and it's in an atradational position).
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There are three types of thermals and each has its own limitations. There is no true "do it all" device but some come close. Ideally, you would have a 1x wide FOV scanner for ID'ing then a 2x+ weapons mount or clip-on (mated to your day optic) for engaging. In my opinion, a weapons mount somewhere in the 25-35mm range with a 18-10* FOV is about as close as you will come to an optic that is useful for scanning and engaging targets up to around 250yds.

1. Handheld/Spotters
2. Weapons Mount
3. Clip-on

1. The handheld/scanners are native 1x, smaller and some of then newer designs like the NVision Nox18 and the iRay MH25/RH25 are essentially built in PVS housings. These can be handheld or helmet mounted using a J-arm just like a PVS.

2. Weapons mount are typically native 2/3x (with digital 2x/4x zoom) so they have smaller FOV but are better for ID'ing/engaging targets. They have multiple zero, reticle, and zoom options as they are built to be a standalone optic. The newer designs like the Nox35 or Bering Super Hogster have a very small, lightweight footprint and offer LaRue QD mounts which have excellent return to zero. The idea being you can pop the unit off your rifle, scan with it, then pop it back on and engage. Middle of the range here is around $4k-$5k. If you want to shoot longer distance with something like a Halo LR you're looking at closer to $7k.

3. Clip-ons are made to mount in front of a day optic. Most now are optimized for LPVO like the Razor 1-10. They are really only ideal for longer distance engagements (200yds+) and you are incorrect- they cannot be practically used to scan. The main reason being the screen on a clip-on is very small as it is designed to be viewed through your day optic. Most mid-range (think $5k) clip-ons are totally usable from 1x to around 10x, (on the day optic - clipons themselves do not zoom) which is why they are typically more useful for engaging at further distances. The other thing to take into consideration with a clip-on is overall weight. Swinging a ~10lb rifle around is tiresome, and trying to scan through your day optic/clip-on will get old real quick.
 
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Humans put off a LOT of heat.

pUlEyoS.gif
 
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patina said:
... and you are incorrect- they cannot be practically used to scan.
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Since details matter, let's be clear:
  1. I never indicated they could be practically used to scan.
  2. What I did indicate was "The benefit touted with such 'clip-on' devices is that they can be removed and used for scanning"

Example: "Use the Clip-on as a handheld tracker or turn any traditional riflescope into a thermal scope with a simple attachment."
Source: https://www.burrisoptics.com/thermal-optics/clip-on
Relevance: Burris is touting its clip-on device as being capable in a pre-mounted scenario as well as capable in an unmounted scenario for scanning aka 'hand-held tracking' (to use their terms).


From the above, Burris clearly thinks it's practical, else they'd not try to sell it in that way (thereby risking false advertising concerns). I, however, am a skeptic. This is the sort of thing I wanted to ask @Cluck Norris about -- to get a sense for how often he removed his Merlin-13 to do scanning, whether re-zero'ing was a concern when doing so, how long re-attaching in the dark took, etc.
 
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surrealone said:
to get a sense for how often he removed his Merlin-13 to do scanning,
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Here is the adapter for the Merlin
liemke.com

LIEMKE WÄRMEBILDKAMERA KLEMMADAPTER KA MC / JETZT ZUBEHÖR KAUFEN / Liemke.com

Das passende Zubehör für Ihr Liemke Wärmebildgerät. Alle Adapter, Montagen, Taschen, Trageriemen, sowie Nachtoptiken lagernd und sofort verfügbar! Je…
liemke.com liemke.com

It is very easy to remove for scanning, just a throw lever.

surrealone said:
whether re-zero'ing was a concern when doing so
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Not an issue, the thermal is slaved to the optic, so as long as you have a hood zero on the optic you are fine

surrealone said:
how long re-attaching in the dark took,
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See above, super easy throw lever.

Now for something you didn’t ask.

The mounts are scope size specific, and I would use a a lpvo when mounting because a little magnification is nice but a lot messes with the focus(focusing on the screen)

This unit is nice and I picked it up to play with it, but I’m upgrading to a much higher end unit. Only because I want to helmet mount it, weapon mount it, and I want something that can be a stand alone unit.
 
surrealone said:
Since details matter, let's be clear:
  1. I never indicated they could be practically used to scan.
  2. What I did indicate was "The benefit touted with such 'clip-on' devices is that they can be removed and used for scanning"

Example: "Use the Clip-on as a handheld tracker or turn any traditional riflescope into a thermal scope with a simple attachment."
Source: https://www.burrisoptics.com/thermal-optics/clip-on
Relevance: Burris is touting its clip-on device as being capable in a pre-mounted scenario as well as capable in an unmounted scenario for scanning aka 'hand-held tracking' (to use their terms).


From the above, Burris clearly thinks it's practical, else they'd not try to sell it in that way (thereby risking false advertising concerns). I, however, am a skeptic. This is the sort of thing I wanted to ask @Cluck Norris about -- to get a sense for how often he removed his Merlin-13 to do scanning, whether re-zero'ing was a concern when doing so, how long re-attaching in the dark took, etc.
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I’m trying to help you based on real world experience, not advertising jargon. I have zero interest in arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
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patina said:
I’m trying to help you based on real world experience, not advertising jargon. I have zero interest in arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Much appreciated! Not trying to argue, at all. I'm just detail oriented...

Cluck Norris said:
Here is the adapter for the Merlin
liemke.com

LIEMKE WÄRMEBILDKAMERA KLEMMADAPTER KA MC / JETZT ZUBEHÖR KAUFEN / Liemke.com

Das passende Zubehör für Ihr Liemke Wärmebildgerät. Alle Adapter, Montagen, Taschen, Trageriemen, sowie Nachtoptiken lagernd und sofort verfügbar! Je…
liemke.com liemke.com

It is very easy to remove for scanning, just a throw lever.


Not an issue, the thermal is slaved to the optic, so as long as you have a hood zero on the optic you are fine


See above, super easy throw lever.

Now for something you didn’t ask.

The mounts are scope size specific, and I would use a a lpvo when mounting because a little magnification is nice but a lot messes with the focus(focusing on the screen)

This unit is nice and I picked it up to play with it, but I’m upgrading to a much higher end unit. Only because I want to helmet mount it, weapon mount it, and I want something that can be a stand alone unit.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Are you sticking with Liemke (e.g. Luchs?) or going with something else? (I presume the upgrade desire is for resolution???)
 
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Does anyone from the hive have hands-on experience with the rattler?
 
NCWalrus said:
Does anyone from the hive have hands-on experience with the rattler?
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I have five friends with rattlers. Two have the 250 version and three have the 384. All of them work well and we all kill coyotes. I run pulsar just for the reasons mentioned up stream. They aren’t made in China and their customer service is awesome! If I get a new one it will be the Pulsar Thermion 2 xp50 pro. Don’t need a new one as my trail does just fine. Dogs can be killed with all the models mentioned. It’s like anything else: how much money do you have or want to spend on a game. Albeit, it is a really fun game
 
I have been running a pulsar trail xq38 for 3 years now with no problems. was around 3300 new. works great for coyote hunting with most shots less than 200 yards. I would recommend going with a 384 sensor minimum. If i was buying one right now I would be looking at the thermion xg50. theyre being discontinued so it can be found for 3400 right now which is a great deal on a 640 sensor scope.
 
For anyone interested I just listed my Super Hogster FS. Biting the bullet and upgrading to a 640 unit. IMO this is the best bang for buck currently available for a practical spotting and capable weapons mounted unit packed full of features.

SOLD - Bering Optics Super Hogster A3 w/Factory Upgraded LaRue Mount - $2800

VGC Bering Super Hogster A3 35mm 2.9-11.6x with factory-upgraded LaRue mount. This is the latest and greatest variant of the SH with upgraded internal memory (32GB),upgraded OLED display, as well as manual image contrast adjustment vs older Super Hogsters. Purchased new in June ($3395 - invoice...
carolinafirearmsforum.com carolinafirearmsforum.com
 
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patina said:
For anyone interested I just listed my Super Hogster FS. Biting the bullet and upgrading to a 640 unit. IMO this is the best bang for buck currently available for a practical spotting and capable weapons mounted unit packed full of features.

SOLD - Bering Optics Super Hogster A3 w/Factory Upgraded LaRue Mount - $2800

VGC Bering Super Hogster A3 35mm 2.9-11.6x with factory-upgraded LaRue mount. This is the latest and greatest variant of the SH with upgraded internal memory (32GB),upgraded OLED display, as well as manual image contrast adjustment vs older Super Hogsters. Purchased new in June ($3395 - invoice...
carolinafirearmsforum.com carolinafirearmsforum.com
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Well that went fast! I was tempted, but I'm going to buy/cry once in the 640 arena, myself.

Out of curiousity, what are you moving to and where are you buying the new unit from? (Any good deals???)
 
I very much want a thermal optic in the near future, only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger right now is they aren’t legal for hunting where I currently live. I also hesitate to spend so much money on something with a relatively low warranty window. Does anyone know of an option that will back their products for life, or am I stuck waiting for Vortex to make one?
 
I doubt you're going to find a lifetime warranty due to the nature of the devices. They are electronic devices and subject to various forms of degradation. I will say that Pulsar seems to stand behind their products and unless things have changed are not Chineseium.
 
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