Utility locate (811) question

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I am in the final stages of a house renovation and one of the items that is needed is a new water line from the utility meter to the house. A few weeks ago, the plumber put in for the locate and was told they were backed up 3 weeks which he didn’t believe. Since then, someone wrote “Duke / CLR” on the road, but that’s about it. The plumber says they haven’t gotten a clan dig permit yet. I understand the liability issues and why they won’t proceed until they do, but my questions are:

1) why the hell is this taking so long and it never took this long in the past?
2) who is responsible for doing the locate? Is it one entity or a rep from different ones?
3) is there any way to apply pressure to get this moving? It’s running the risk of being the thing that keeps us from moving back in.
 
Around here they sub out the actual locating work. I thought if they didn’t come in a certain amount of time you could go ahead and dig. I was a superintendent and dealt with this stuff years ago but it’s been awhile. I remember one time they were dragging their feet to get out and I called them and told them politely that the machines were on site and the guys were starting today and that it would be great if someone would locate this fiber for us. Someone was there in a two hours or so.
 
Around here, all the locates are done by a 3rd party contractor, USIC? Their trucks are everywhere.
Short staffed? Slow workers? Youre not greasing the right palms? It's a conspiracy?
 
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Can’t answer all those questions but I can tell you my experiences.
1. Took me 2 weeks in a down construction market for a locator.
2. The same person did all the locating, and never found the gas line.
3. I doubt you can speed it up. I have had jobs it took 6 weeks to get people a gas line from the street including locating and a trench with pipe.

A couple times I moved it forward but it went like this- “ OK, but if these elderly people freeze to death it’s on you.”
 
georgel said:
Around here, all the locates are done by a 3rd party contractor, USIC?
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I've seen those trucks as well and thought that they might be the 3rd party contractor for locates, but I am not sure if I have seen them in this area.
 
811 does things on their own schedule. I've had them "clear" a ticket without even visiting the site. If it's critical enough to you, hire a third party locator yourself.
 
You can dig without them, but if you cut something you may be out of your home longer.
If you’re running plastic pipe, lay some metal/wire in the ditch with it.
I learned this when they installed our gas line. Put some dirt on top of the pipe, then lay a strip of the ~2” caution tape over its length, then cover it up. The wire/metal will make finding the pipe location easier, the tape will be a visual warning before digging deeper.
 
All good suggestions but in my experience, locating is about worthless. Even though I would always call for it when digging, over half the time they were either off the mark or missed something altogether. I remember once in Durham replacing a sewer, was using an independent contractor for the digging part, he hit a fiber optic bundle -then and this was some years ago, they tried to charge him $15,000. When we were getting Firefly up here, they located the yard 4 times, when the digging crew showed up, they didn't pay a bit of attention to the marks, just dug where they wanted.







years ago
 
Get Off My Lawn said:
You can dig without them, but if you cut something you may be out of your home longer.
If you’re running plastic pipe, lay some metal/wire in the ditch with it.
I learned this when they installed our gas line. Put some dirt on top of the pipe, then lay a strip of the ~2” caution tape over its length, then cover it up. The wire/metal will make finding the pipe location easier, the tape will be a visual warning before digging deeper.
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I believe the wire reg is code now in NC -at least for sewer replacement.
 
amnesia said:
You're only required to wait a certain period of time.

The 811 Process – North Carolina 811

nc811.org nc811.org
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Very helpful thank you. The water line path had been flagged and I think the flags are gone (will check this afternoon). There is also a "whose digging near me" but it's based upon device location (phone) so I will have to do it from there.

I sent a message to the GC informing him of the three day window, basically saying this 'we haven't gotten an all clear' is a BS excuse.
 
Law says you have to call 811, if anyone tells you otherwise, they don’t know wtf they’re talking about.
Law also says 811 has 72 hours to locate and it’s usually the day after that before it’s clear. If you dig without it, hit something that causes outages of any type for others besides you, you open yourself up to civil liability as well as paying to fix the utility. Your counties gis and register of deeds may show who has a right of way for you to be aware of.
I’d ask your contractor for the locate number, you can go on NC811.com and check the status yourself, or call in your own if the contractor has let it lapse. That way you’ll be in control of getting it updated before it expires
 
Burt Gummer said:
Law also says 811 has 72 hours to locate and it’s usually the day after that before it’s clear. If you dig without it, hit something that causes outages of any type for others besides you, you open yourself up to civil liability as well as paying to fix the utility.
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I am nearly 100% certain that it had been called in as the area was flagged (and I think the flags are gone, but will check) and the mysterious "Duke / CLR" appeared in paint on the road in front of the house, so someone had done something.

I suspect what might be happening, and giving benefit of the doubt here that it's not a lie / excuse, is that the plumber doesn't understand or realize that they are clear of liability on the fourth business day after placing the ticket and is instead waiting for some sort of "all clear" that likely isn't coming.

Hopefully I will be able to get some more information on the ticket this afternoon. Worst case, I put in for a locate, say on Monday, and they're good to go the following week. Wood floors are getting finished starting Monday, so I would rather that they simply not be on site to risk going inside. The trick, though, will be getting them to agree to show up and dig.
 
Update: The GC called the plumber, who said that they were told there was a backlog and had not gotten approval. The GC asked them to get a status update from 811, which they did and it turns out that everything was complete and their dig has been "approved" but they didn't get an email notification that they were expecting. As it stands, they're scheduled to come hook up the new water line on Wednesday.
 
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BlackGun said:
My neighbor, a GC had the locating, then he dug for a sprinkler system. He dug up a gas line that had not been identified. An old gas line did get identified though. They sent him a bill for $2400. He refused to pay the bill.
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As he should have. This sort of thing is a real problem with the “abandon in place” mentality with regards to old, out dated, and unused infrastructure, especially that which is buried.
 
After the minimum amount of time you can dig “carefully” and not be liable for damage.

Or you can do like my guys do and call it in as an emergency after waiting so long.

That used to work—in fact, the Director of 811 told me to do it that way about 4-5 years ago.

Now they’re faced with bottom of the barrel staffing and a booming out of control construction industry. Even if they were full staffed they couldn’t keep up.

The best approach is probably to bag the crap out of them until they respond if your contractor won’t proceed without the clear ticket.
 
9outof10mms said:
The best approach is probably to bag the crap out of them until they respond if your contractor won’t proceed without the clear ticket.
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What drives me personally nuts is that the area has been located several times in the last few years: construction across the street, dog fence, water line repair, etc. we KNOW the only thing in the ground is the damned water line that they’re supposed to tie into.

Thankfully, we discussed the situation with the propane company and they just did it.
 
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9outof10mms said:
After the minimum amount of time you can dig “carefully” and not be liable for damage.

Or you can do like my guys do and call it in as an emergency after waiting so long.

That used to work—in fact, the Director of 811 told me to do it that way about 4-5 years ago.

Now they’re faced with bottom of the barrel staffing and a booming out of control construction industry. Even if they were full staffed they couldn’t keep up.

The best approach is probably to bag the crap out of them until they respond if your contractor won’t proceed without the clear ticket.
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This has been our trouble on a weekly basis at work the last few months. With the US Open coming in June there is a ton of stuff going in the ground to support USGA in and around #2 course. Last locate by 811, the guy who came out said he was covering our entire county as the last guy quit. USGA has had Bloodhound locating services (private) come out to help, and their ground penetrating radar finds a lot (including stuff that’s been abandoned for decades). I’ve not been able to get a straight answer as to a private company like theirs’ liability though.
 
I had to put up with waiting for 811 for years. It’s best to wait the 72hours and then call in with an emergency request.
811 will only mark water lines to the meter. From the meter to the house you have to hire your own private locating service.
It’s also a GREAT idea to take pictures of the flags and paint markings before beginning work.
 
Stogies said:
I am confused, why would you proceed to dig without them having located the lines? Seems a bit risky? Or am I looking at this wrong?
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It turns into a liability exercise. Even if everyone knows where the lines are, they’ve been marked numerous times previously—once the markings “expire” and you hit one, you’re 100% at fault. If 811 failed to hold up their end of the deal and you’ve practiced “safe digging practices” (i.e. look for valves and manholes to be telltale signs that something is in your work zone), you’re not financially liable.
 
A few years ago at a certain university campus, there were several construction projects going on. In one case a crew was digging smallish holes and pouring concrete into them to make some form of piling. Each hole would take about 2 yards of concrete. Well, the started pumping into one and it took A LOT more concrete, but rather than stop because something was obviously off, they kept pumping. Turned out they dug and broke into an active sewer line nobody knew was there (wasn’t on any drawings) and filled it with concrete. Not sure who ended up with liability but the initial repair estimates were over $1 million.
 
This is what you get when:

1-Duke was never granted an easement or right-of-way authority (by the previous owner) to install this line
2-because of that, it was never mapped
3-because it was never mapped, UCIS never found it or knew it was present
4-also, UCIS didn't bury it the required 36"-48" below grade

This *was* an active 25k volt primary line

IMG_4076.jpeg

My septic installer about soiled his britches when it blew off like a shotgun blast.

Long story short, I fought Duke and [3] separate law firms who tried to collect damages for the initial repair and the relocation away from its spot at that time.

The line was running directly through my the only place my septic field could go so there was no digging it up and disturbing that soil.

Since there was no easement or other granted authorization, Duke buried a new underground primary on the opposite side of my property and even though it didn't cost me, they did try to collect something afterwards.

I have no love for Duke or their subs.
 
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I will add there is an exemption to the 811 statute requirement that if 1-you are the property owner, 2-you are the operator digging outside known utility easements and right-of-ways, then 3-you are not required to obtain an 811 ticket.
 
Stogies said:
I am confused, why would you proceed to dig without them having located the lines? Seems a bit risky? Or am I looking at this wrong?
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If they dont mark it in the time they are required by law to do then you are no longer liable. Risky, sure but when things are being built everything is on a schedule. A one week delay can cascade into 3 months delay very quickly. As me how I know.
 
Get Off My Lawn said:
You can dig without them, but if you cut something you may be out of your home longer.
If you’re running plastic pipe, lay some metal/wire in the ditch with it.
I learned this when they installed our gas line. Put some dirt on top of the pipe, then lay a strip of the ~2” caution tape over its length, then cover it up. The wire/metal will make finding the pipe location easier, the tape will be a visual warning before digging deeper.
Click to expand...
This is important. If you ever need to locate the line again. Piedmont moved their meter from the garage to my house, then backfed the garage with a second line from the meter. Now they can’t even find the line themselves. Don’t let anyone do this.
 
Stogies said:
Hm, I'd rather wait than cut a gas or power line?
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It depends how much it’s costing not to dig. Sometimes it’s cheaper to work and fix it if something happens. This is taking for account there is no main vein fiber around.
 
WILDB!LL said:
This is important. If you ever need to locate the line again. Piedmont moved their meter from the garage to my house, then backfed the garage with a second line from the meter. Now they can’t even find the line themselves. Don’t let anyone do this.
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We called to have my son's yard marked, after it was marked I started punching holes for a fence with a skid steer, it punches them fast. I trashed an unknown 1" water line from the well abut 3' down. That was a PIA
 
Get Off My Lawn said:
We called to have my son's yard marked, after it was marked I started punching holes for a fence with a skid steer, it punches them fast. I trashed an unknown 1" water line from the well abut 3' down. That was a PIA
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Hitting water less than 2” really no big deal. I hated dealing with cut gas lines that were not where we were expecting them to be.
 
Not related to a locate, but interesting non the less. Again, certain well known loca, university campus. They had just paved a big parking lot. Running under the lot was a 8” chilled water main (44f water at about 60 psi) that had a drain plug in it. The drain plug, unfortunately, was carbon steel, not brass, and eventually rotted away. That 2” hole let 800 gpm flow that literally lifted the asphalt. An emergency dig was done and the plug replaced. The water blow out undermined the support of the water line, which thankfully was restrained ductile iron. After a proper plug was installed, flowable fill was used to bring the excavation site to grade and was then paved over.

Small water leaks with 60+ psi and 5 million gallons of cold water behind them equal excitement.
 
I know it's an extra fee, but contracting a private utility locator is always an option as well.

Here in SC I probably have 10,000 tickets with SC 811 called in for my projects over the last few years. When a company marks their own lines it's usually not too bad, it's when they sub out the work that issues arise.

You can always call them and bitch, it's worked very well in my situation multiple times once they've exceeded their mandatory time. But for private utilities, hiring my own locator has literally saved my work crews lives a number of times when high voltage lines or gas just went completely unmarked (expected in some cases) or was marked by the public guys wildly innacurately.
 
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