What makes my rifle do this?

chrishf12

chrishf12

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Setup a newish rifle this week and shot a half MOA group on Friday. Then things went downhill.

TC compass 2 compact .243win

The 3 rounds above bulls included the cold bore shot. I moved the scope down .4 mil and let the rifle cool 10 min.

Then proceeded to shoot this shotgun pattern. Any ideas? Scope and bases seem tight.

Shot another 3 round group today to confirm group is crap!

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Reloads? Factory ammo?

Torque proper on screws holding action in stock?

Scope itself broken?

Muzzle device tight?

Parallax? Do you have trouble with scope shadow?
 
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This is a TC compass 2 that I bought new and put anout 50 rounds through over a year ago. This week, I just mounted a Athlon Ares BTR on it. Using a sico omega 300 that was checked and re-mounted during firing. Factory 95gr Hornady Superformance. Parralax set and unchanged between groups.

All rounds fired from a wooden bench with a sled. This is a working optic that has held zero since i have owned it.

I haven't checked the action screws they are still set from factory. Blue loctite on bases no sealant on rings.
 
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Has it ever been cleaned? Thinking optics being that's the new factor but superperformance ammo has always been a bit dirty in my experience and your barrel may need cleaning if never cleaned
 
Confirmed Optic mount torque.
Checked the action screws are snug per the manual no torque specs listed.
The factory stock has enough clearance to retain free float even when on a sled.

When the Rifle was new I did some velocity testing with some new loads. I had several sub moa 5 shot groups with the reloads. I believe it was with this same scope and rings. I pulled it to run on another rifle.

Barrel has not been cleaned. I will address that today.
 
Snug doesn't equal torqued. Sometimes even a quarter turn makes a big difference. If TC doesn't give you torque specs, see what the fastener is recommended at, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 in/lbs. If the stock uses aluminum pillars, pull the action out of the stock and make sure there isn't a bunch of plastic flashing around the pillars that's preventing the action from seating properly, or that the pillars are sunk in to the right height.
 
Supermatch said:
Snug doesn't equal torqued. Sometimes even a quarter turn makes a big difference. If TC doesn't give you torque specs, see what the fastener is recommended at, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 in/lbs. If the stock uses aluminum pillars, pull the action out of the stock and make sure there isn't a bunch of plastic flashing around the pillars that's preventing the action from seating properly, or that the pillars are sunk in to the right height.
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I torqued to 35 in/lbs today and the trigger guard action screw did tighten some. Will shoot it again and confirm for everyone.
 
JW1987 said:
I have not had good luck with superformance ammo in several cartridges.
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Me either. Clean and shoot with another brand of ammo. Too make it easier shoot three 3 shot groups at three different bullseyes (crosses) on same piece of cardboard. Checking torque settings is a given.
 
Ok so I pulled the stock off to see what I was dealing with. The action does have pillars but the action seats on the plastic above them.

I replaced the action and bumped butt on the floor to make sure the recoil lug was seated. Then torqued both action screws to 40 in/lbs.

I did email S&W yesterday about torque specs but still waiting on a reply.

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Shooting it just now it was a little more consistent. I checked action screw torque and suppressor tightness between each group. I did shoot them fast since I was pressed for time on my lunch break. Distance is 125 yrds and center circle is 1".

I feel like it was grouping tighter before all of this started. I may have to try and torque tune this one to see what values it likes.

Here are the results and ammo tested.

And before anyone calls shooter error, I was able to shoot a 5 shot .8 moa group just after this with my AR.

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Try some different weight bullets as well. See what happens with 100 grain. Play with the torque values. It all makes a difference.
 
chrishf12 said:
Ok so I pulled the stock off to see what I was dealing with. The action does have pillars but the action seats on the plastic above them.

I replaced the action and bumped butt on the floor to make sure the recoil lug was seated. Then torqued both action screws to 40 in/lbs.

I did email S&W yesterday about torque specs but still waiting on a reply.

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And that's what I hate about those cheap synthetic stocks. You may or may not actually have contact between the pillars and the action when torqued. I would play around in 2.5 in/lbs increments to see what it likes. If you ever get bored, a little excavating and some Devcon can make it to where you're torqueing up against something solid instead of something squishy that is going to move with temperature. Sort of a mini bedding job just to take the slack up around the pillars.
 
Supermatch said:
And that's what I hate about those cheap synthetic stocks. You may or may not actually have contact between the pillars and the action when torqued. I would play around in 2.5 in/lbs increments to see what it likes. If you ever get bored, a little excavating and some Devcon can make it to where you're torqueing up against something solid instead of something squishy that is going to move with temperature. Sort of a mini bedding job just to take the slack up around the pillars.
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These pillars actually have about 1/8" of plastic above them. They appear to be pressed in from the underside of the stock until they seated to the plastic shoulder.
 
I read where the stock had enough clearece for the barrel to still be floated "even in the sled" I promise you I'm not being funny but what did you mean by that?
 
He means in a lead sled. A type of shooting rest. He is saying that with the fore end setting on the rest, that the stock doesn’t contact the barrel. Some thin stocks can flex with just the weight of the gun, causing contact between the stock and barrel. Contact = bad groups.
 
I know exactly what a lead sled is and have seen then make a good grouping rifle shoot bad. I've never seen one make one diminish the barrel clearence just sitting in the sled other than someone strapping one down or using a clamp from the sides which would play with the harmonics of the barrel.

I do not use lead sleds. I've seen one kill a scope before. All the vibration goes to and through the optic. This was on a heavy recoiling rifle. An example would be to take a light 300 win mag, take the butt of the rifle against a tree and pull the trigger. The tree isn't moving so the shock goes through the gun and not into your shoulder.
 
Joker00 said:
I know exactly what a lead sled is and have seen then make a good grouping rifle shoot bad. I've never seen one make one diminish the barrel clearence just sitting in the sled other than someone strapping one down or using a clamp from the sides which would play with the harmonics of the barrel.

I do not use lead sleds. I've seen one kill a scope before. All the vibration goes to and through the optic. This was on a heavy recoiling rifle. An example would be to take a light 300 win mag, take the butt of the rifle against a tree and pull the trigger. The tree isn't moving so the shock goes through the gun and not into your shoulder.
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It happens. The Remington 700 Hogue stocks have enough flex in them and so little clearance that they’ll touch the barrel just resting on a bipod.
 
The many I have worked on hasn't flexed enough to hit the barrel using a bipod *vertical pressure* it takes a lot less pressure to make it contact from the side. But thar doesn't mean it hasn't happend.

My original post was making sure the OP wasn't strapping the gun down in a lead sled. Which I highly don't reccomend using a sled or any pinch bag thay places pressure from the side. My job is to make people shoot Itty bitty groups with their rifles beyond 100 yards.
 
Joker00 said:
The many I have worked on hasn't flexed enough to hit the barrel using a bipod *vertical pressure* it takes a lot less pressure to make it contact from the side. But thar doesn't mean it hasn't happend.

My original post was making sure the OP wasn't strapping the gun down in a lead sled. Which I highly don't reccomend using a sled or any pinch bag thay places pressure from the side. My job is to make people shoot Itty bitty groups with their rifles beyond 100 yards.
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I previously had a Savage synthetic (non-accustock) that would flex enough to contact the barrel when sitting in a sled or bag rest.

I use the term "sled" loosely as a one piece rest vs using bags or bipod and bag.
 
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Finally an update, this one is solved. I picked up a Burris Fullfield e1 to live on this rifle and mounted it in Warne mountain tech rings.

Between the new optic setup, and torquing the action to 35 in/lbs. I have the accuracy back. Imho it had to be an issue with the cheap rings I was using before.

Very pleased for a ~$400 package and factory ammo. Target below was 140 yrds, .55moa group.

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One thing I did notice when installing the new scope, the rear base is off level.
I am wondering if this was the issue with the cheaper 30mm rings even being torqued to spec.
 
DS1911 said:
Haven’t seen it mentioned, are you capable of shooting better groups? I know everyone thinks they can. But it’s not always the case.
Also, for a $300 hunting rifle, doesn’t seem to be too bad
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Yes, I had initial .5 moa group from the rifle before the issues started. See the photo in my first post.
 
Have you documented the temp and humidity at each session? All the guns I sighted in during warm weather shot high in cooler weather
 
scratchmark said:
Have you documented the temp and humidity at each session? All the guns I sighted in during warm weather shot high in cooler weather
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Are you shooting factory or reloads?
 
Joker00 said:
I know exactly what a lead sled is and have seen then make a good grouping rifle shoot bad. I've never seen one make one diminish the barrel clearence just sitting in the sled other than someone strapping one down or using a clamp from the sides which would play with the harmonics of the barrel.

I do not use lead sleds. I've seen one kill a scope before. All the vibration goes to and through the optic. This was on a heavy recoiling rifle. An example would be to take a light 300 win mag, take the butt of the rifle against a tree and pull the trigger. The tree isn't moving so the shock goes through the gun and not into your shoulder.
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I personally did this very thing with a Tikka T-3 Lite in 300 WSM. Rifle was shooting great, went to the range and someone had a lead sled and told me to try it out. Group went from average of 1 MOA to looking like rat poop in a dresser drawer.
 
Joker00 said:
All the vibration goes to and through the optic. This was on a heavy recoiling rifle. An example would be to take a light 300 win mag, take the butt of the rifle against a tree and pull the trigger. The tree isn't moving so the shock goes through the gun and not into your shoulder.
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Not doubting what you saw, but I can’t imagine how preventing a gun from moving under recoil would damage a scope. For example, secure a gun to a 5,000lb block of concrete. When fired the gun doesn’t move at all. With no movement, there isn’t any force going to or through the optic, the optic just sits there with no force on it at all.
 
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