WWII Unit Issued Weapons

1075tech

1075tech

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Is there any way to find out what weapons a particular unit would have likely been issued?

I'm particularly looking for what rifles may have been issued to the average infantry soldier of the 123rd Infantry Regiment 1943 - 1945.

M1s ?

ETA: Pacific Theater. Mostly Guinea and the Philippines
 
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A good reference would be film archives. Check out episodes from “world at war” and “victory at sea” which have episodes on these campaigns.
 
Interesting stuff.

As an activated Guard regiment, I'd think Springfields at least at first....not sure when they rec'd Garands, but it would be an interesting investigation....

Here's a pic of them in Hawaii in 1944. I tried to blow up the pic, but can't tell if they're Garands or 03A3's w/ C stocks. Looks like they didn't get into the combat zone until around August of 1944.

123rd.JPG
Scene shows 3rd Battalion, 123rd Infantry Regiment, 31st Division, commanded by Lt. Col. Beelman, 21 April 1944 passing in review for General Robert Richardson, Commanding General, USAFICPA, at Kauai, Hawaii.
 
This may help, an excerpt from the MOH awarded to John R. McKinney who was in company A of the 123
"
US Army Pvt. John McKinney had stood guard duty and had just gone to his tent in the early hours May 11, 1945 on the island of Luzon, Philippines. The vanguard of a Japanese force slipped past the guard post. Sgt. Fukutaro Morii threw open McKinney's tent flap and slashed down with his sword, no doubt to minimize the sound of the as-yet undetected attack. He severed part of McKinney's ear. McKinney, a skilled hunter from Georgia, grabbed the rifle he slept with, bashed Morii in the chin and finished him off with another blow to the head.

Over the next 36 minutes, McKinney protected the flank of his company and his sleeping comrades by killing 38 of the enemy. McKinney did so through point-blank, kill-or-be-killed encounters as well as rapid-fire, accurate shots with various M1 rifles he picked up and fired at charging enemies. Early in the engagement, he returned to his foxhole where he eliminated first one wave and then part of the second wave of the main attack force. Several in the second wave made it to the foxhole where McKinney first shot and then clubbed his assailants in hand-to-hand combat"
 
1075tech said:
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As a Guard unit, I would imagine they had '03's from the 1910's or 20's(?) to some point during WW2. @B00ger 's post shows that Pvt. McKinney used 'various M1's' (Garands? Carbines?) in May of '45, just three months before the end of the war. I wonder when the 123rd transitioned to Garands.

Here's a picture of the 172nd Guard in New Georgia in July of '43, note the Springfield 03A3.

laemlein_thompsondrummag-8.jpg





Marines on Okinawa in May of 1945. I wonder if that '03 so late in the war is a sniper version.

laemlein_thompsondrummag-15.jpg
 
FWIW, Army infantry in the PI in 41-42 had M1 rifles. Army troops went ashore at Guadacanal with M1rifles and 03s for grenade launching. Support used 03s and 03A3s. Throughout the Pacific theater Army had M1s for combat line soldiers and M1 carbines, 03 and 03A3 for support less engineers who were equipped as infantry.
 
These are pictures I was able to get out of the book I linked to earlier of the 123rd. FWIW, my dad was Co E, 2nd BN, 123rd Inf Rgt., 33 ID



Capture.PNGCapture1.PNGCapture2.PNGCapture4.PNGCapture5.PNGCapture7.PNGCapture8.PNG
 
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beamernc said:
My grandfathers WWII discharge paper, list "military qualification" as "MM RIFLE M1 MM CARBINE". He was a medium tank crewman in Rhineland Central Europe.
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My oldest brother has all my dad's paperwork in San Antonio. I have to ask him to dig it out and check.

I have my grandfather's discharge certificate. He had a medical discharge during training and had no qualifications in arms.
 
At Guadalcanal the Marines were throwing away their Reising submachine guns and stealing army M1’s after the army reinforced them early in the operation. I don’t know how widespread it was but I’ve read it in several accounts. I think HBO’s Pacific shows one Reising if I’m not mistaken which through my reading I think they were far more common in the Marines than the Thompson at the time.

My grandfather served the Army as a Captain in the 106th division during the battle of the Bulge. He was issued an M1 Carbine. He was an S-3 and I don’t know if he ever fired it before he was ordered to surrender and was captured by the Germans. He was liberated once by Task force Baum that Patton sent to rescue his son in law, John Waters. He fought with the task force on the way out but I don’t know what weapon he used before they were recaptured.

On another note Paramarines were issued Johnson M1941 rifles instead of Springfields and were replaced with M1’s later in the war.
 
Confirmed that he was listed as an "Ammo Bearer".

As an aside, after V-J Day, his unit was deactivated. He reenlisted and went to the European Theater as an MP with the 202nd MP in Austria
 
Mack270 said:
At Guadalcanal the Marines were throwing away their Reising submachine guns and stealing army M1’s after the army reinforced them early in the operation. I don’t know how widespread it was but I’ve read it in several accounts. I think HBO’s Pacific shows one Reising if I’m not mistaken which through my reading I think they were far more common in the Marines than the Thompson at the time.

My grandfather served the Army as a Captain in the 106th division during the battle of the Bulge. He was issued an M1 Carbine. He was an S-3 and I don’t know if he ever fired it before he was ordered to surrender and was captured by the Germans. He was liberated once by Task force Baum that Patton sent to rescue his son in law, John Waters. He fought with the task force on the way out but I don’t know what weapon he used before they were recaptured.

On another note Paramarines were issued Johnson M1941 rifles instead of Springfields and were replaced with M1’s later in the war.
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The Marines TO&E changed a few times during the war; the Marines restructured a lot. How they started out with in 1941 was not how they ended in 1945. I think the army was more stable over their years.
 
Mack270 said:
At Guadalcanal the Marines were throwing away their Reising submachine guns and stealing army M1’s after the army reinforced them early in the operation. I don’t know how widespread it was but I’ve read it in several accounts. I think HBO’s Pacific shows one Reising if I’m not mistaken which through my reading I think they were far more common in the Marines than the Thompson at the time.

My grandfather served the Army as a Captain in the 106th division during the battle of the Bulge. He was issued an M1 Carbine. He was an S-3 and I don’t know if he ever fired it before he was ordered to surrender and was captured by the Germans. He was liberated once by Task force Baum that Patton sent to rescue his son in law, John Waters. He fought with the task force on the way out but I don’t know what weapon he used before they were recaptured.

On another note Paramarines were issued Johnson M1941 rifles instead of Springfields and were replaced with M1’s later in the war.
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Yeah, I've read that after about 9 weeks of Marines fighting, an Army infantry unit arrived on Guadalcanal and took up a sector the Marines could hardly cover. Eventually, thankfully, more Army units arrived. With the Army getting most of the Garands and Thompsons, the Marines were stuck with getting what they could. I also read that the M41 Johnson did just as well as the Garand in trials, but the M1 was already in the pipeline (and there was a bayonet issue as the M41's barrel reciprocates a bit).
Interesting (to me) history about Reising himself and the USMC's procurement of arms during WW2.
 
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This guy is a guru of sorts and would probably be happy to answer your question. Look him up on the 'gram. He's spoken to more WW2 vets than you'd likely imagine. Strongly recommend his book as well.

Screenshot_20230113-112155.png
 
Dan0311 said:
Yeah, I've read that after about 9 weeks of Marines fighting, an Army infantry unit arrived on Guadalcanal and took up a sector the Marines could hardly cover. Eventually, thankfully, more Army units arrived. With the Army getting most of the Garands and Thompsons, the Marines were stuck with getting what they could. I also read that the M41 Johnson did just as well as the Garand in trials, but the M1 was already in the pipeline (and there was a bayonet issue as the M41's barrel reciprocates a bit).
Interesting (to me) history about Reising himself and the USMC's procurement of arms during WW2.
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The Marines rejected the M1 prewar and willingly kept their beloved 03. They soon found that modern warfare hinged on volume of fire and switched to the M1 after experience at Wake and Guadacanal.
 
rufrdr said:
The Marines rejected the M1 prewar and willingly kept their beloved 03. They soon found that modern warfare hinged on volume of fire and switched to the M1 after experience at Wake and Guadacanal.
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Yes, apparently the Garand did not do as well in the mud and long-term accuracy testing. Springfield, then Garand, then Johnson then Winchester.

Said the board: "In those tests which simulated adverse field conditions, such as exposure to dust, rain, mud, salt water, sand, etc., the [Springfield] could always be operated with some degree of proficiency. Whereas the semi-automatic weapons generally failed to function mechanically and, in most cases, the gas-operated rifles [Garand, Winchester] could not even be manually operated after a few shots had been fired. . . . The tests . . . were undoubtedly severe as it was believed that they had to approach the extreme in order to be all inclusive. . . . The board realizes that only a certain proportion of the rifles in any one operation . . . will be subjected to the severest conditions, and that the remainder will function normally." This proportion might work out all right for a large force carrying semiautomatics. But "it is ... doubtful if this is true for the Marine Corps, where small units are usually employed and thereby place a correspondingly greater value on reliability and efficiency of each individual rifle."
 
Dan0311 said:
As a Guard unit, I would imagine they had '03's from the 1910's or 20's(?) to some point during WW2. @B00ger 's post shows that Pvt. McKinney used 'various M1's' (Garands? Carbines?) in May of '45, just three months before the end of the war. I wonder when the 123rd transitioned to Garands.

Here's a picture of the 172nd Guard in New Georgia in July of '43, note the Springfield 03A3.

laemlein_thompsondrummag-8.jpg





Marines on Okinawa in May of 1945. I wonder if that '03 so late in the war is a sniper version.

laemlein_thompsondrummag-15.jpg
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That is an M1903 not an A3 and the second pic is most likely a T38 Arisaka.
 
Dan0311 said:
Yeah, I've read that after about 9 weeks of Marines fighting, an Army infantry unit arrived on Guadalcanal and took up a sector the Marines could hardly cover. Eventually, thankfully, more Army units arrived. With the Army getting most of the Garands and Thompsons, the Marines were stuck with getting what they could. I also read that the M41 Johnson did just as well as the Garand in trials, but the M1 was already in the pipeline (and there was a bayonet issue as the M41's barrel reciprocates a bit).
Interesting (to me) history about Reising himself and the USMC's procurement of arms during WW2.
Click to expand...
Several hundred USMC garands went ashore on Aug 7. with the Defense Bns. At this point nearly the whole USMC was equipped with Garands EXCEPT the combat divisions. By early '43 they were fully equipped.
 
As a side note, the regular Army units in the PI pre-war had M1 rifles, the PI army had 1917s, and the rest of the U.S. Army combat support and service support had 03s. Most of the .30 ammo in the Philippines was in 20 rd boxes or 5 rd clips in bandoliers. As fighting progressed on Bataan, the 8 rd clipped .30 was used up and the M1 users had to resort to picking up fired clips and reloading them with rounds gleaned from 5 rd stripper clips. As one would expect, the number of recovered 8 round clips was a dwindling quantity. The Philippine troops had a different problem: the extractor on the 1917 usually broke after hostilities began and those issued with 1917s were reduced to using a stick or cleaning rod to poke out the fired case in order to chamber a live round. Shades of the civil war! I may have told this story here before, but the image of frantically picking up expended 8 round clips during and after firefights boggles my mind.

cq5dam.web.835.835.jpeg
 
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The Thompson pictured earlier in this thread is a 1928A1, which phased out of production in September of 1942. Most of their production was sent to the ETO or as Lend/Lease guns to our allies.

Most of the PTO Thompsons were the M1 model. They are easily distinguished by the charging handle on the right side of the receiver, as opposed to the 1928A1 charging handle being located on top.
 
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