Pistol braces

JimB said:
We’ll lets figure out what jurisdiction to get you arrested in and get things started.
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I'd wager you're not going to find an ATF agent that will arrest/charge someone solely with, "your brace makes your pistol a short barreled rifle". Yeah, if you're caught trafficking drugs, whores, machineguns, etc., they'll tack it on with the rest, knowing it will disappear in a plea agreement.
This is a dangerous game of poker that the ATF is playing because, at this point, a first year law student at the bottom of his class could make a very solid argument that the entire NFA is 'void for vagueness'.
The ATF will go back to busting moonshiners if the NFA is thrown out. The only thing left of the agency will be a handful of diverse women and a fax machine.
 
Escape Goat said:
I'd wager you're not going to find an ATF agent that will arrest/charge someone solely with, "your brace makes your pistol a short barreled rifle". Yeah, if you're caught trafficking drugs, whores, machineguns, etc., they'll tack it on with the rest, knowing it will disappear in a plea agreement.
This is a dangerous game of poker that the ATF is playing because, at this point, a first year law student at the bottom of his class could make a very solid argument that the entire NFA is 'void for vagueness'.
The ATF will go back to busting moonshiners if the NFA is thrown out. The only thing left of the agency will be a handful of diverse women and a fax machine.
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Don’t disagree, but can force their hand If someone wants to kick things off.

Best low risk thing would be to create a trust now, only one responsible party, have it notarized so the date is clear. Transfer a braced pistol from yourself into your trust and file as an SBR under the amnesty, signing the form 1 as trustee (probably need a new ATF acct for the trust).

This puts ATF in a box. They can come for you and argue that you made an illegal transfer, the defense to which is that the same person has maintained control, I can’t see a jury convicting on what looks like a transfer to yourself, it’s form over substance. They could come after you as trustee for receiving it, same problem. They could deny the form 1 which leaves an unregistered SBR that they may try to recover. Most likely they just approve the thing which adds to the mountain of evidence that this is all quite arbitrary.
 
Couldn’t you just sell it in pieces and not assembled?

I take the buffer tube and brace off and sell you everything in a box.
 
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tarheelguy said:
Couldn’t you just sell it in pieces and not assembled?

I take the buffer tube and brace off and sell you everything in a box.
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I believe the Alphabet people call that constructive possession.
 
1. Years of pistol braces being sold and used
2. Years of ATF issuing “approval statements” for various such devices
3. Bruen decision requiring all 2A interpretations to be in the context of tradition, for which there is no such tradition to support the ATF’s existence let alone the entire NFA or restriction of firearm accessories

when the NFA is ruled unconstitutional (and it will most certainly be), I would kindly ask that this forum continue to adhere to the “laws” of february 2023 including the NFA and ATF rulings as currently written.
 
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With the x number of million braces out there over the years they OK'd it, I would think "in common use" would apply. And they're responsible for that. If they claim they made a mistake, then they are in effect penalizing others for their mistake.
 
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Sheepdog910 said:
I feel better now thanks guys it was worth it.
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iu
 
scratchmark said:
Couldn't we have at least waited out the 120 days
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No. Because you have 120 days to register them or make them compliant. You cannot transfer one in that window.
 
Sooo... I'm not a smart man. But just so I understand.. we aren't allowed to post with pistol braces B/C they MAY be an NFA item... but I understood that we can post things that ARE NFA items in the NFA area? Isn't the burden on the poster to ensure that they're following the laws/ rules, or is this specific to FS/FT ?

I'm asking both as a generality, and B/C I'm Building a 450 Bushmaster suppressed SBR, and that Muthaf%^r deserves some screen time when she's done. And yeah- I filled out all my forms so its legal. ...


( DISCLAIMER: The term "building" in this post is not meant to imply any manufacture of, import of, or import of a manufacturer of any illegal or unauthorized product. This term is meant to convey the assembly of alleged parts heretofore legally obtained with all proper permits and required taxification in an orderly fashion in a well lit and locked environment. Muthaf%^ is not intended to imply nor subtly create any reference to any F bomb nor any other incendiary or F ing device in any way, nor was it intended as a verb. The term "Bushmaster" is not any statement of judgement on the aesthetic choices made by anyone's mother, should the tern mutha$% be construed as an invitation for an alleged act. Your results may vary. All lefts must yield. )
 
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JimB said:
Don’t disagree, but can force their hand If someone wants to kick things off.

Best low risk thing would be to create a trust now, only one responsible party, have it notarized so the date is clear. Transfer a braced pistol from yourself into your trust and file as an SBR under the amnesty, signing the form 1 as trustee (probably need a new ATF acct for the trust).

This puts ATF in a box. They can come for you and argue that you made an illegal transfer, the defense to which is that the same person has maintained control, I can’t see a jury convicting on what looks like a transfer to yourself, it’s form over substance. They could come after you as trustee for receiving it, same problem. They could deny the form 1 which leaves an unregistered SBR that they may try to recover. Most likely they just approve the thing which adds to the mountain of evidence that this is all quite arbitrary.
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I had a member call me saying they were going to use the 'grace' period and SBR a pistol into their trust. When filling out the paperwork he found the "free" stamp is only for an individual. Once you're approved, you can the pay $200 to transfer to your trust.
Has anyone seen otherwise?
 
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FB_IMG_1675465311858.jpg

not legal counsel here, but I will provide this image for free-use. Currently valid on most social media and public forum applications where one might use language that could be interpreted as self incriminating evidence. Hopefully this clears up some confusion during these vague and confusing times.
 
Is that like a Get Out of Jail card? Is that honored at most jurisdictions? Can I get a laminated one?
 
Get Off My Lawn said:
I had a member call me saying they were going to use the 'grace' period and SBR a pistol into their trust. When filling out the paperwork he found the "free" stamp is only for an individual. Once you're approved, you can the pay $200 to transfer to your trust.
Has anyone seen otherwise?
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He’s all kinds of messed up, so his conclusion is unreliable. More specifically, what exactly is “SBR a pistol into their trust?”

If he/she meant transfering a braced pistol that is already considered an unregistered SBR, there is no legal process to make such a transfer.

if he/she meant transferring a pistol as currently defined by ATF under the new rule and then adding a brace and filing a form 4 he would be in violation of the NFA by making the NFA item before filing the form 4 and paying the tax.

In short, the waiver of the tax only applies to the entity that was holding a braced pistol on the date that the rule became effective.

As to your specific question, I have no direct experience. It’s possible that they limit it to individuals, but since it wasn’t addressed in the rule I doubt that they do. The member most likely has a different issue and is incorrectly incorrectly attributing it.
 
Get Off My Lawn said:
I had a member call me saying they were going to use the 'grace' period and SBR a pistol into their trust. When filling out the paperwork he found the "free" stamp is only for an individual. Once you're approved, you can the pay $200 to transfer to your trust.
Has anyone seen otherwise?
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Most likely scenario: The "pistol" (ATF says SBR) was not in the trust prior to 1/31. Whoever owned it as of 1/31 can get the free stamp, and is stuck with it until they get the stamp, destroy it, de-SBR it or surrender it.
 
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I'll actually make a genuine on topic contribution this time,

Screenshot_20230208_070945_Chrome.jpg

If read correctly, it would appear that in order to qualify for a free stamp on a pre date and provable ownership, braced firearm, you must register as individual. If you would like your now newly found NFA item added on to your trust with other nfa items so as to make things easier in the hereafter, you will still be paying $200 via form 4.
 
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Hunter600rr said:
I'll actually make a genuine on topic contribution this time,

View attachment 582393

If read correctly, it would appear that in order to qualify for a free stamp on a pre date and provable ownership, braced firearm, you must register as individual. If you would like your now newly found NFA item added on to your trust with other nfa items so as to make things easier in the hereafter, you will still be paying $200 via form 4.
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Correct. And that’s been pointed out dozens of times so far.

It’s a good thing Schedules and AOP forms don’t require a notary. 😎
 
Hunter600rr said:
I'll actually make a genuine on topic contribution this time,

View attachment 582393

If read correctly, it would appear that in order to qualify for a free stamp on a pre date and provable ownership, braced firearm, you must register as individual. If you would like your now newly found NFA item added on to your trust with other nfa items so as to make things easier in the hereafter, you will still be paying $200 via form 4.
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The part that is responsive to the OP’s question is the footnote. Your note is correct if you use the term “individual” in the same way they do in that footnote, if you really mean “natural person” then you are incorrect as to the free registration being limited.
 
BigWaylon said:
Correct. And that’s been pointed out dozens of times so far.

It’s a good thing Schedules and AOP forms don’t require a notary. 😎
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Based on my googling, a revocable living trust in NC need not be notarized. All mine are, so just saying.
 
JimB said:
Based on my googling, a revocable living trust in NC need not be notarized. All mine are, so just saying.
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The trust itself has to be notarized upon creation but the schedules and assignment of property (how you actually put property in the trust) does not. So there is no easy way to verify when something was added to the trust beyond trusting the AOP is completed truthfully.
 
Jerzsubbie said:
The trust itself has to be notarized upon creation but the schedules and assignment of property (how you actually put property in the trust) does not. So there is no easy way to verify when something was added to the trust beyond trusting the AOP is completed truthfully.
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Most trusts are, but can you find a reference in statute that they must be?
see https://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_36c.html especially 4-402 and 4-407 which says it doesn’t even need to be reduced to writing.

I might be looking in the wrong place since 4-402 says that the sole trustee can’t be a sole beneficiary, but I can’t find rules elsewhere in statute.
 
90% of mine are individual but 6 or 7 are on a trust from the pre trust ruling days. Ive never notarized any of my schedule A's and to my knowledge there are no states requiring that.
 
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