No. we got there at post #42.... except that I like reloading.
Ok, I'm going to retract that last statement in 42 cause I'm actually thinking about it....
No. we got there at post #42.... except that I like reloading.
Ok, I'm going to retract that last statement in 42 cause I'm actually thinking about it....
Nothing in my life requires me to have an answer to the beginning of the universe. I just don't worry about it.
If I knew the answer for 100% sure, it still would not affect my life.
But you make sure people know what you disagree with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I know one guy who grew up in some variation of a Christian church who has been taught and believes whole heartedly that salvation lies in the hands of the individual and that any slip up may cause him to go to hell. I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that salvation lies with God, not with man and that no action on the mans part can gain or lose it. Then I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that it lies somewhere in the middle and salvation is a joint effort between man and God and either can jeopardize it. This all from the same bible and they can all quote scripture to prove their belief. Another believes the New Testament is the gentile bible and only Israel can be saved. Stuff is confusing.
I know one guy who grew up in some variation of a Christian church who has been taught and believes whole heartedly that salvation lies in the hands of the individual and that any slip up may cause him to go to hell. I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that salvation lies with God, not with man and that no action on the mans part can gain or lose it. Then I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that it lies somewhere in the middle and salvation is a joint effort between man and God and either can jeopardize it. This all from the same bible and they can all quote scripture to prove their belief. Another believes the New Testament is the gentile bible and only Israel can be saved. Stuff is confusing.
Here is my struggle. Knowing that God is omniscient how can it be just to create man, knowing he is being created and programmed to behave a certain way, and punish him for behaving as he has been created to behave? If the faithful were predestinated to be faithful before the foundation of the world then were the unfaithful not also predestinated? People suffer an eternity in hell just because God made them for that? Those who have faith have it because God has given it to them, those who have not faith have it not because God has not given it, correct? What are your thoughts on this?"who wrest the scriptures to their own destruction" ..... like this is some new situation? There have been heretics since Marcion and Cerenthus, and as far back as the Nicolatians (the latter during the time when the NT was being authored). Not to mention the Gnostics and Mystery Rites. All have appealed to "scripture" but all have twisted it.
God is sovereign, man is responsible. We are not able to harmonize this, but that does not justify us simply ignoring either "side" I am a 100 per cent Calvlinist predestination God is sovereign and grace is 100 per cent. This is what the bible clearly teaches. It ALSO teaches that our activities are integrally bound up with our salvation and that no man will know God without good works. In fact, there seems to be indications that our WORKS will be the test to determine whether the grace of God (which is what saves us with no activity on our part) was truly operative in our lives. There is no synergy in our salvation, though. We cannot save ourselves. This is the plain teaching of scripture. I have never encountered a Christian who said SCRIPTURE teaches othewise, though I have met many who were unwilling to let the scripture say what it says and insist that our ability to parse it out means we must ignore some part that doesn't fit our ability to understand it.
I admit that I have never heard the last illustration you cite, but it sounds like some hyperdispensational sect.
Not all things are equally plain in the bible. I agree with that. However, the main teachings are clear enough so that a man with a normal mind and a devotion to study can accurately plumb the major points and understand them.
I have to add that the VAST VAST VAST majority of the time I have heard people say that they "just don't understand" the bible and talk about it being hard to grasp, I have found that those people have never bothered to read it for themselves. That is NOT to be considered a personal dig at you (really! I don't even know you!). It is just that this is my normal and usual experience.
If you sit down with a fairly modern translation.... or even the KJV if you are into street English from the 1600s...., a pencil and notebook and the SLIGHTEST of study helps (a concordance to track where verses are located, and a bible handbook like Halleys, where you get the historical and cultural background), you can get well over 80% of the bible teaching and 100% of the major stuff.
I began reading the bible as an unbeliever at age 17. I was astounded, mostly because it was not what I had been told it was. It was not a list of moralisms, things to do, threatenings of hell if I didn't "act right," or finger waggings.
I began reading the gospels and the first thing I noticed was the unusual self possession and ability to be unmoved by hostility that Jesus exhibited. The stuff he said made me uncomfortable (hostile, really), but I ploughed on through. Up until that time, I had thought of myself as a relatively good person, who sneered at the hypocritical social conventions, but was honest (I never ripped anyone off... if I told them it was an ounce of dank, then it was a true ounce... I never cut weed or anything else I sold) and tried to help people. I walked away from sexual exploitation of a girl and would often stand up for people I thought were being abused for meanness. I congratulated myself on these virtues. I began to see that if Jesus was right, then morality had to do with Lordship. Who was at the center of my being, who called the shots, and who determined right and wrong. By the time I made it through Luke, I was convinced that if Jesus really was who he claimed to be, that I was going to hell, because I had no concern at all for the stuff he said was the most important aspects of life. Everything was about me. I understood VERY clearly that if I "believed" like the bible says we must believe, then I was going to have do to more than just give assent to some historical claims. I was going to have to BELIEVE that living the lie that I was in control of my life would destroy me, and that this "self lordship" was the core of the sin I needed saving from. I believed (somewhere in the early months of 1973) that God WOULD forgive me and change me..... I just did not know whether I wanted to do it or not. I told one of my friends "it is a huge ***** step, man." Even now, I am not sure when that change occurred. I continued to read the bible and was frankly stood on my head by how, over and over, the objections I had were answered in the normal reading of the text.
Can I say that a man will be converted and understand the bible SIMPLY by reading it? No. I believe the bible is a spiritual book with a spiritual author and its author must confirm, woo, and speak to him to make its message one that resonates. Many heathen have read the bible and remain heathen still. However, my experience OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again has been that someone and I will sit down, read through the gospels together in an attempt to help them get to know the message and that person has been fundamentally changed. This is a testimony that spans almost 2,000 years now. There is a power in that book that is unleashed only when people get to know it.
Here is my struggle. Knowing that God is omniscient how can it be just to create man, knowing he is being created and programmed to behave a certain way, and punish him for behaving as he has been created to behave? If the faithful were predestinated to be faithful before the foundation of the world then were the unfaithful not also predestinated? People suffer an eternity in hell just because God made them for that? Those who have faith have it because God has given it to them, those who have not faith have it not because God has not given it, correct? What are your thoughts on this?
I know one guy who grew up in some variation of a Christian church who has been taught and believes whole heartedly that salvation lies in the hands of the individual and that any slip up may cause him to go to hell. I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that salvation lies with God, not with man and that no action on the mans part can gain or lose it. Then I know another who believes, as he has been taught, that it lies somewhere in the middle and salvation is a joint effort between man and God and either can jeopardize it. This all from the same bible and they can all quote scripture to prove their belief. Another believes the New Testament is the gentile bible and only Israel can be saved. Stuff is confusing.
It's not the issue of free will I'm interested in knowing opinion of, it's God's omniscience as it relates to the creation of man. If I mold a playdoh shape can I then blame the playdoh for the shape it's in?This is why I have said during this entire thread that one needs to read the word himself, do the research, seek answers for themselves, and then come to their own conclusions.
One thing to keep in mind is that God didn't create us to be robotic. Angels as they are depicted are the automatons who lack true free will.
It also comes down to a fact that if two people follow the teachings of Christ, accept salvation, and live their lives according to his commandments then a lot of the details you mentioned above is minutiae. Kinda like "side A puts their seat belt on before they start their car, but side B puts it on after...which is right?" With the answer being "it doesn't matter as long as the belt gets put on."
Rogue speaks of indoctrination, but fails to realize that all parents indoctrinate their young. It's called "being a parent". Good parenting to one seems like indoctrination to another. Some take their kids to church, some don't, both are teaching a lesson in that act. Pretending they aren't is lying to oneself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's not the issue of free will I'm interested in knowing opinion of, it's God's omniscience as it relates to the creation of man. If I mold a playdoh shape can I then blame the playdoh for the shape it's in?
The argument is that we are sinners and therefore, without grace, are condemned. However, we are sinners because the God who knowingly created us the way we are (capable of sin), intentionally created us this way. There is no way around that.
No, He doesn't allow free will to decide the fate of man. The Bible teaches that the saved have been chosen before the world was created.Yes, you can. If you give that playdoh life, free will, and start it out in utopia. Watch it screw up that utopia, and then give it another way out. When it screws up that final way you resort to a final "Seriously easy" way.
Also, God doesn't "send" people to hell. He allows their free will to take them their if they so choose. If he prevented it overtly then free will would be pointless because we would be unable to ever do anything bad. And just as we have discussed before with the right to smoke, drink, and have fatty foods, if you don't have the freedom to make bad decisions then you aren't truly free.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No, He doesn't allow free will to decide the fate of man. The Bible teaches that the saved have been chosen before the world was created.
Grace isn't a gift available to all but only to those predestinated to receive it.Yes, he intentionally created us in a way that could work out poorly for us. Not being able to make mistakes is not freedom. The argument you pose is that grace is somehow difficult to receive. It isn't, in fact, it is a free gift to all. It isn't like you screw up and "pop" end up in hell because he "sends" you there.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In the Old Testament the elect are represented through the nation of Israel, the only nation of people with the ability to know God; the rest of the world did not have free will to decide. Today the elect are those come to the son after having been called by the father, not those who of their own free will decide to.Chapter and verse. You are talking about predestination. And it isn't a universally accepted interpretation, or even a widely accepted one.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Grace isn't a gift available to all but only to those predestinated to receive it.
In the Old Testament the elect are represented through the nation of Israel, the only nation of people with the ability to know God; the rest of the world did not have free will to decide. Today the elect are those come to the son after having been called by the father, not those who of their own free will decide to.
Romans cannot cancel predestination, whosoever does not define anything; Ephesians does not void Romans since the "whosoever" has already been chosen.No, this is a falsehood, plain and simple. Romans 10:13 is very clear. "Whosoever". Not "whosoever, except those who God chose not to already."
What you are discussing is the issue of predestination that has been debated in the church for centuries. Some believe that the saved are predestined, therefore the condemned are predestined as well. Some believe in a one sided predestination that God has a select he has chosen before, but since Salvation is a free gift offered through all through Christ that none are predestined to hell.
Again, this is a doctrinal issue that has been debated for years, and one that I feel some churches have abused in order to control congregations while not effectively delivering the message of the gospel. Very similar to how some churches believe in eternal security, in that "once saved always saved" and that there is nothing a "saved" person can do to lose grace. I have always found this a cop out because the argument is based on a piece of scripture that says that Satan can't snatch Christs followers from his hand, but it doesn't say they can't willingly leave. It's a cop out because when someone inevitably falls and commits a horrid sin they claim "Well, they just weren't >really< saved in the first place." Which to me is disingenuous.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
God was not available to gentiles in the Old testimentAgain, not true. The Jewish people were chosen as Gods people because it was from them that he would raise the line of David, the line that would lead to the birth of Christ. There is zero locations in the Old Testament that claims that non-Jews couldn't believe in the Jewish God.
The only "elect" as you are referring to may be what was the priesthood who were the only ones allowed into the holiest place in the temple.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Romans cannot cancel predestination, whosoever does not define anything; Ephesians does not void Romans since the "whosoever" has already been chosen.
God was not available to gentiles in the Old testiment
This was prophesy of the coming Christ who would open salvation to the gentileI'll help:
Isaiah 56:1-8New King James Version (NKJV)
Salvation for the Gentiles
56 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
3 Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to the Lord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them[a] an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Isaiah 56
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This was prophesy of the coming Christ who would open salvation to the gentile
Ephesians 3 1-13
Grace isn't a gift available to all but only to those predestinated to receive it.
That has been my experience with people. They believe whatever they were taught and never question anything. That's why I hate indoctrinating children. They don't get a chance to learn on their own.
These believers tend to only associate with people with similar beliefs so whatever that belief might be it's constantly reinforced. Any other views are considered crazy and they do not enter into discussions about alternate views (even those about faith).
Here is my struggle. Knowing that God is omniscient how can it be just to create man, knowing he is being created and programmed to behave a certain way, and punish him for behaving as he has been created to behave? If the faithful were predestinated to be faithful before the foundation of the world then were the unfaithful not also predestinated? People suffer an eternity in hell just because God made them for that? Those who have faith have it because God has given it to them, those who have not faith have it not because God has not given it, correct? What are your thoughts on this?
Grace isn't a gift available to all but only to those predestinated to receive it.
In the Old Testament the elect are represented through the nation of Israel, the only nation of people with the ability to know God; the rest of the world did not have free will to decide. Today the elect are those come to the son after having been called by the father, not those who of their own free will decide to.
Here is my struggle. Knowing that God is omniscient how can it be just to create man, knowing he is being created and programmed to behave a certain way, and punish him for behaving as he has been created to behave?
If the faithful were predestinated to be faithful before the foundation of the world then were the unfaithful not also predestinated?
People suffer an eternity in hell just because God made them for that?
OK, excellent point, which goes back to my real question: if God created man as He did, predisposed to sin and with the ability to choose life or death, and knew the choices men would make before He created them, then did He not predestinate some to an eternal separation from Him?Matthew 18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
The very first mention of predestination in scripture is predicated on foreknowledge, which goes back to the omniscience of God. Predestination is not that God forced your choice, but rather that He already knew what you'd choose.
It doesn't mean you're not free to choose, it simply means that in His omniscience, He isn't going to be surprised by your choice. Hopefully that makes sense, I may not be explaining in the clearest terms.
...which goes back to my real question: if God created man as He did, predisposed to sin...
...and with the ability to choose life or death, and knew the choices men would make before He created them, then did He not predestinate some to an eternal separation from Him?
OK, excellent point, which goes back to my real question: if God created man as He did, predisposed to sin and with the ability to choose life or death, and knew the choices men would make before He created them, then did He not predestinate some to an eternal separation from Him?
...did He not predestinate some to an eternal separation from Him?
According to Jesus, no. John 3:16 covers all who would believe. Not all, except a few. This theme repeats itself a number of times where Salvation is meant for all. Not a select few.