1911

John Travis said:
Not the design. The execution of the design.
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Execution is important but a good design makes good execution vastly easier. The 1911 design does not do itself any favors in this regard. One of the many failings is the barrel link where the tolerance stack of all the (many) parts involved can cause it to rotate too high causing lug to slide clearance issues or rotate too low and having insufficient lockup. Modern pistols use a ramp or wedge which not only requires fewer parts but to a certain degree is self adjusting where the wedge pushes the barrel until it is in full engagement with the locking surface. Not only is it easier to make good parts there are fewer of them! As an added bonus as the surfaces wear they self adjust and keep the lockup solid.
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
. One of the many failings is the barrel link where the tolerance stack of all the (many) parts involved can cause it to rotate too high causing lug to slide clearance issues or rotate too low and having insufficient lockup.
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
Execution is important but a good design makes good execution vastly easier. The 1911 design does not do itself any favors in this regard.
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Those two statements reveal two things.

The first is your basic misunderstanding of the gun's operation, particularly the function of the link.

The link's sole function is getting the barrel out of the slide at the right time. That's it. That's all. It has nothing to do with lockup. If a particular example does seem to lock on the link, either the lower lug is out of spec or somebody has long linked the barrel in the misguided attempt to "improve" the lockup. Juggling link lengths willy-nilly can and often does result in barrel timing problems. That's on Bubba...not Browning.

The second is your lack of historical knowledge and the fact that the revamping of the blueprints prior to our involvement in WW2 birthed the concept of the drop-in part. It worked so well that vendors for the M1 Garand and the Carbine followed suit shortly after.

To wit:

Easily serviced in the field without the need for specialty tools. That included replacement of all parts except the ones that were staked in. The early ones met that requirement as long as the parts used in a Colt, UMC, or Springfield were manufactured by their respective companies.

The great revamp took that to a new level, and insured that any part from any vendor...whether that vendor supplied pistols or not...would drop into any pistol regardless of manufacturer and function to the US Army's requirements and guidelines. Along with the new blueprints came a set of standardized GO and NO GO gauges for nearly every part. The blueprints and gauges were developed by Springfield Armory with cooperation and assistance from Colt.

We can discuss it further another day...assuming you're open to learning something that you thought you knew...but right now, it's time for ol' Gunny to hit the rack. 0300 comes early at Castle Doghair.
 
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
tolerance stack
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A little sleep, and my head is clear, so...let's continue.

Your Glock...and any locked breech pistol that operates with the tilting barrel...is subject to the very same tolerance stacking in the aggregate vertical dimensions.

Because they operate exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons.

There are just differences in how the barrel disengages from the slide. Two methods/mechanisms for accomplishing the same thing. One car is started by turning a key and the other by pushing a button. The end result is the same.

And...a small point, but a point nonetheless...

The term "lockup" is usually misunderstood and misused, but its misuse is so prevalent that I've almost stopped bringing it up. When they say it, I know what they mean...even though it's incorrect.

The barrel engages with the slide vertically, but locks horizontally when the gun fires with the lug(s) in opposition under high shearing forces. These same opposing forces place tensile stresses on a revolver's frame and lead to the frame stretching that creates the back and forth play in the cylinder that we call endshake.

When you can wrap your head around all this. you're on the path to understanding how the pistol functions and how silly these Glock vs 1911 arguments really are.
 
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John Travis said:
A little sleep, and my head is clear, so...let's continue.

Your Glock...and any locked breech pistol that operates with the tilting barrel...is subject to the very same tolerance stacking in the aggregate vertical dimensions.

Because they operate exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons.

There are just differences in how the barrel disengages from the slide. Two methods/mechanisms for accomplishing the same thing. One car is started by turning a key and the other by pushing a button. The end result is the same.

And...a small point, but a point nonetheless...

The term "lockup" is usually misunderstood and misused, but its misuse is so prevalent that I've almost stopped bringing it up. When they say it, I know what they mean...even though it's incorrect.

The barrel engages with the slide vertically, but locks horizontally when the gun fires with the lug(s) in opposition under high shearing forces. These same opposing forces place tensile stresses on a revolver's frame and lead to the frame stretching that creates the back and forth play in the cylinder that we call endshake.

When you can wrap your head around all this. you're on the path to understanding how the pistol functions and how silly these Glock vs 1911 arguments really are.
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The subtle but important difference between the two systems is the 1911 rotates in an arc whereas in the modern system the barrel movement is dictated by the profile of the barrel lug.
The 1911 link is similar to a door-when you look at a closed door and you see a gap. That gap is required as when the door is at a diagonal it is “longer” and needs that gap to close. When you have a 1911 with a link that is too long (or other dimension issues) it is a similar case-the edges of the locking lugs interfere with the bottom of the slide and the pistol is hard to rack open.
Take the same door and now put undersized hinge pins in. You close the door but it may not latch as the door is allowed to wiggle in the door jam. This is similar to a 1911 with a worn or undersized link and causes several problems.
The major problem is the slide will unlock prematurely as the lug engagement is less and will begin battering itself to death.
The second problem is the barrel is no longer centered in the breechface so you will get off center primer strikes where in extreme cases (especially using 45 acp with small primers) will cause misfires
The modern system uses a ramp or wedge to push the barrel and slide together to lock. Going back to the door example take a wedge style door stop and pull the door on to it. Locks light. now move the door stop a little closer to you and pull the door tight. Still as tight right? This is the same as the modern system where the barrel lug aka door stop as it wears still locks up as tight.
The modern pistol uses a design which really has more in common with a FAL or SKS where a ramp on the bolt carrier uses a wedge to pull the bolt out of the locking recess than the 1911.
 
Couldn't help but think of this thread when I read this about the M&P Tempo system:

Building off the M&P®5.7 system, this slim frame, full-sized M&P is tailor-made for your new favorite caliber. The proprietary Tempo™ barrel system plays a key role in the operation of the M&P 22 Mag. The gas-operated and locked breach design allows for the high powered 22 Mag rimfire cartridge bullet to leave the muzzle of the pistol before feeding another round into the chamber, meaning uninterrupted and repeatable cycling.
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Wow! They finally figured out how to make sure the next round feeds only after the bullet has cleared the muzzle!
 
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I went for a 9mm Commander from Bul Armory last year. Great finishing. Good shooting. Very accurate. Haven’t had to tinker with anything mechanical, did paint the front sight green. That’s it! Couple hundred hollow points and 115gr each, bulk diet is 124gr mostly. That number is beyond 1k. Hasn’t given me a bit of grief yet. I feel it’s the Best Buy at the price. Wouldn’t hesitate to get a .45 flavor from them if that’s your bag.
 
brentona said:
View attachment 745308

I went for a 9mm Commander from Bul Armory last year. Great finishing. Good shooting. Very accurate. Haven’t had to tinker with anything mechanical, did paint the front sight green. That’s it! Couple hundred hollow points and 115gr each, bulk diet is 124gr mostly. That number is beyond 1k. Hasn’t given me a bit of grief yet. I feel it’s the Best Buy at the price. Wouldn’t hesitate to get a .45 flavor from them if that’s your bag.
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So your "thinking"...on a 45acp...there's still hope..gonna let ya shoot some of mine when we get together again.

-Snoopz
 
brentona said:
View attachment 745308

I went for a 9mm Commander from Bul Armory last year. Great finishing. Good shooting. Very accurate. Haven’t had to tinker with anything mechanical, did paint the front sight green. That’s it! Couple hundred hollow points and 115gr each, bulk diet is 124gr mostly. That number is beyond 1k. Hasn’t given me a bit of grief yet. I feel it’s the Best Buy at the price. Wouldn’t hesitate to get a .45 flavor from them if that’s your bag.
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That is a pretty little bastard
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
The subtle but important difference between the two systems is the 1911 rotates in an arc whereas in the modern system the barrel movement is dictated by the profile of the barrel lug.
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You should probably stop before you dig yourself any deeper into that hole.


MacEntyre said:
Wow! They finally figured out how to make sure the next round feeds only after the bullet has cleared the muzzle!
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Wait! You mean that they've somehow figured out how to keep the slide from outrunning the bullet?

*blink blink*

What sorcery is this? :D
 
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MacEntyre said:
So, after all that, how does it mean no tolerance stacking?
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With the ramp or “door stop” its location does not matter the door always gets jammed tight. Similarly when the barrel lug wears the barrel moves slightly forward but still ends up tight against the locking surface.
With link or “door hinge” once the hinge wears the door is loose, like a 1911 once your link gets loose it is loose, you have to replace parts. I have yet to see a locking block on a Glock need to be replaced due to wear. By contrast there is a whole industry built around replacing 1911 links. Just go to Brownells and search “1911 link”.
 
Snoopz said:
So your "thinking"...on a 45acp...there's still hope..gonna let ya shoot some of mine when we get together again.

-Snoopz
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Oh brother I’ve had a .45 in the past. Had a Springer LW Operator 5” that someone offered me a lot on at one point and I couldn’t say no. C’mon now, you know I like the bigger holes! 9mm just shoots cheaper ☺️ can’t wait to get together again with you, your bride, and your pups. Life is moving pretty fast and furious right now. Hey, is it ever gonna warm up again, too??
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
With the ramp or “door stop” its location does not matter the door always gets jammed tight. Similarly when the barrel lug wears the barrel moves slightly forward but still ends up tight against the locking surface.
With link or “door hinge” once the hinge wears the door is loose, like a 1911 once your link gets loose it is loose, you have to replace parts. I have yet to see a locking block on a Glock need to be replaced due to wear. By contrast there is a whole industry built around replacing 1911 links. Just go to Brownells and search “1911 link”.
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In this opinion, you haven't addressed how this leads specifically to tolerance stacking, which you claimed earlier.
 
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keepcalmandcarryon said:
this from a guy who thinks the bullet going down the barrel prevents the slide from going back on a 1911? now THAT is funny!THAT is funny!
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I never said that. Jerry Kuhnhausen did.

You misread or misunderstood what I said...or were just unable to grasp it. I'm betting on C.

You should really stop.

Your Dunning-Kruger is showing.
 
1911 brands I have owned are Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Tisas and practically all of the Philippine products. Most have gone on elsewhere. I have never had the pleasure to own any of the custom brands. Couldn't and can't afford them.

Springfield Armory products are my favorite 1911s!
 
John Travis said:
Well, not many of them have a lot of control over quality. The guns aren't built. They're assembled by people who probably had about a week's training before going on the line.

Their parts come from outsourced vendors. While Colt and Springfield do finish machine their raw slide and frame forgings, the rest of it isn't actually manufactured in-house. Colt hasn't even produced its own magazines in close to 70 years. So, they're largely at the mercy of their suppliers. And...as the saying goes...your equipment is brought to you by the lowest bidder.

Not the design. The execution of the design.
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This is the absolute truth.

It's a dirty rotten shame that I can't purchase a Colt 1911 and NOT get the best damn 1911 in the world!!! I don't want to understand the manufacturing process, or the procurement of parts. I want it to work!

Glocks and some other striker fired pistols brands meet my expectations. They work. Right out of the box they work. I've never had to send one back!
 
powwowell said:
Glocks and some other striker fired pistols brands meet my expectations. They work. Right out of the box they work.
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That's what happens when one manufacturer makes a gun.

50 years from now, when everybody and his idiot cousin is turning out clones, and each one has his own set of
reverse-engineered blueprints, and half the components...including magazines...come from outsourced vendors, assembled by people who were bagging groceries a week ago...you'll have a new generation of shooters pissin' and moanin' about how finicky they are.
 
John Travis said:
That's what happens when one manufacturer makes a gun.

50 years from now, when everybody and his idiot cousin is turning out clones, and each one has his own set of
reverse-engineered blueprints, and half the components...including magazines...come from outsourced vendors, assembled by people who were bagging groceries a week ago...you'll have a new generation of shooters pissin' and moanin' about how finicky they are.
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The upside to this process is increasing supply and competition, thus driving prices down. However it seems most buyers pay less attention to the economy of scale than some inconsequential aesthetic defects.
 
John Travis said:
That's what happens when one manufacturer makes a gun.

50 years from now, when everybody and his idiot cousin is turning out clones, and each one has his own set of
reverse-engineered blueprints, and half the components...including magazines...come from outsourced vendors, assembled by people who were bagging groceries a week ago...you'll have a new generation of shooters pissin' and moanin' about how finicky they are.
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One could possibly say that this is already happening and there are some Glock "clones" that have proven to be relatively mixed in performance...*cough* S&W
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
this from a guy who thinks the bullet going down the barrel prevents the slide from going back on a 1911?
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Let's revisit this one so there won't be any misunderstanding for anyone who might actually believe that I said it.

I said that the bullet's forward drag on the barrel works to delay the slide's acceleration...not stop it.

Do you understand that "delayed" doesn't mean prevented?

If you don't, let me try to help.

To delay a moving object means to resist its progress...to slow it down...to make it late arriving at a predetermined point than it would without a delay. In this instance, it means to delay the point at which the breech opens.

And, to make it even simpler for you:

If you're driving on a highway at a steady speed of 60 mph, headed for a destination 20 miles away, you can expect to arrive in 20 minutes.

However, on the way, if you run into a traffic situation that forces you to slow down to 30 for five miles, your arrival is going to be DELAYED. You'll still get there. You just won't get there in the planned 20 minutes.
 
MacEntyre said:
@John Travis you probably need to say that the above explanation applies to both 1911s and Glocks.
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It applies to any self loading firearm. Opening the breech has to be delayed long enough for pressures to drop to a safe level.

And, note that "safe level" doesn't necessarily mean atmospheric.
 
It is such a damn shame that Colt pistols have gone so downhill. The bluing on their pistols is still beautiful but I'm really not willing to pay as much as their asking for something mechanically inferior to some budget options. At this point I'm wondering if I should just teach myself how to do charcoal bluing so I can make a Tisas pistol look like a colt.
 
Zal said:
It is such a damn shame that Colt pistols have gone so downhill.
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This ain't their first trip down that road.

Shortly before the appearance of the Series 70 line, Colt had some problems. In addition to pending bankruptcy, they were losing a good many of their skilled people through retirement and layoff/restructuring and replacing them with whoever could remember which way to turn a screw. You might get a good one, and the next one in the serial range wouldn't be worth carrying home. I handled an early Combat Commander that had the slide lugs machined off center so badly, you could see it without even looking closely. These were Colt's dark days and Springfield nearly shut'em out pof the 1911 market.
 
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