3-Gun....Why have you stopped, or, why have you never tried it?
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All looks to be big fun!!!! Be careful and have a big time!!!
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Just promise when I show up the names not changed to "Old Fart "
CF
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Ok, my take on 3g and a following post with my "dream" 3g type match.
First off, if you shoot 3g much, you'll quickly find there are more expensive things than divorce, a crack habit, or a bass boat. Lots of folks say "I'll just run what I brung" but in truth, the hook for the equipment race is set. That said, if you like it, you'll spend the money to feed that habit. Next, if you don't reload, you'll start or get seriously acquainted with someone who does. Couple the ammo costs back in the day with the current conditions and presto, it just got exponentially expensive. Third, stage design is critical to having a really good time and that means not only design but props as well. Nobody could hold a candle to the AMU 3g matches at Ft Benning. There were stages where we shot out of Humvees, from under the hood of a ducenhalf, using your shotgun to actually breach a door, and one where no shoots outnumbered shoots by nearly 10-1, talk about being careful flinging rounds. It was a great mix of steel and paper targets, loads of fun, and darn expensive even then. And yes, I had the privilege of actually spending some time there with Jerry Miculek and he is more impressive in person on the range and a true southern gentleman.
So after a stint on the 3g crack pipe, putting up with range lawyers, poor sports, crummy stage design, and a$$hat match directors with visions of grandeur, I quit. For one thing, there is no "nationally" recognized set of classifications. I used to shoot what would have been called "Heavy Metal" ie FAL, 1911, and pump 12ga. In many matches, there was no distinction for that and I got clobbered by the mousegun crew and while I had fun shooting, it gets tiring being in the middle to bottom third all the time. So some would say, can't beatem, joinem. Again, I point to the lack or organization in the 3g world and the joinem comment just puts a shooter right back onto the equipment racetrack. In short, 3g has met the enemy and they is us.
I've moved on to shooting Civil War guns in speed/accuracy competition as a team and it's far less expensive than any 3g match. My ammo costs for a musket match PLUS entry works out to about $15. But aside from the historic side, the team part is a lot of what I enjoy about Skirmishing, more about teams on the next post.
IF I were to EVER go back to a 3g match, here's what I'd like to see-
Clearly delineated classes
If a shooter has sponsorship he's not eligible for any type of prize at any level. They're welcome to shoot, but this match is for folks to have fun and maybe get better at shooting
NO range lawyers allowed meaning the first chirp not about safety is a shortcut to an invitation to leave and never come back
Clear stage instructions and by that I mean if I figure out a better method to shoot the stage don't squawk since you didn't specifically say I couldn't (I have multiple personal examples from sanctimonious IDPA types)
Have some rifle stages out to 200-300yds with targets that have aspect ratios of 500. Lot's of run N gun types can't shoot at distance. As part of this, some must be shot offhand with no support.
Maybe limit round count per stage meaning don't miss. That will slow down the spray and pray crowd.
On to my next comments
First off, if you shoot 3g much, you'll quickly find there are more expensive things than divorce, a crack habit, or a bass boat. Lots of folks say "I'll just run what I brung" but in truth, the hook for the equipment race is set. That said, if you like it, you'll spend the money to feed that habit. Next, if you don't reload, you'll start or get seriously acquainted with someone who does. Couple the ammo costs back in the day with the current conditions and presto, it just got exponentially expensive. Third, stage design is critical to having a really good time and that means not only design but props as well. Nobody could hold a candle to the AMU 3g matches at Ft Benning. There were stages where we shot out of Humvees, from under the hood of a ducenhalf, using your shotgun to actually breach a door, and one where no shoots outnumbered shoots by nearly 10-1, talk about being careful flinging rounds. It was a great mix of steel and paper targets, loads of fun, and darn expensive even then. And yes, I had the privilege of actually spending some time there with Jerry Miculek and he is more impressive in person on the range and a true southern gentleman.
So after a stint on the 3g crack pipe, putting up with range lawyers, poor sports, crummy stage design, and a$$hat match directors with visions of grandeur, I quit. For one thing, there is no "nationally" recognized set of classifications. I used to shoot what would have been called "Heavy Metal" ie FAL, 1911, and pump 12ga. In many matches, there was no distinction for that and I got clobbered by the mousegun crew and while I had fun shooting, it gets tiring being in the middle to bottom third all the time. So some would say, can't beatem, joinem. Again, I point to the lack or organization in the 3g world and the joinem comment just puts a shooter right back onto the equipment racetrack. In short, 3g has met the enemy and they is us.
I've moved on to shooting Civil War guns in speed/accuracy competition as a team and it's far less expensive than any 3g match. My ammo costs for a musket match PLUS entry works out to about $15. But aside from the historic side, the team part is a lot of what I enjoy about Skirmishing, more about teams on the next post.
IF I were to EVER go back to a 3g match, here's what I'd like to see-
Clearly delineated classes
If a shooter has sponsorship he's not eligible for any type of prize at any level. They're welcome to shoot, but this match is for folks to have fun and maybe get better at shooting
NO range lawyers allowed meaning the first chirp not about safety is a shortcut to an invitation to leave and never come back
Clear stage instructions and by that I mean if I figure out a better method to shoot the stage don't squawk since you didn't specifically say I couldn't (I have multiple personal examples from sanctimonious IDPA types)
Have some rifle stages out to 200-300yds with targets that have aspect ratios of 500. Lot's of run N gun types can't shoot at distance. As part of this, some must be shot offhand with no support.
Maybe limit round count per stage meaning don't miss. That will slow down the spray and pray crowd.
On to my next comments
Years ago, I read an article in a shooting magazine, I think it was American Rifleman but not sure looking back through the mists of time. But, it has stuck with me for years and set the stage for my initial interest in 3g. Match was fairly simple. Each squad was a team of 4 shooters- 1 designated marksman, 2 riflemen, 1 shotgun guy. The way the match worked was pretty simple, the rifle guys set up an "ambush" at a set of moving targets. Nobody but the DM could shoot and he had to engage and hit the first difficult target, after that it was fire at will. While they were doing their thing, the shotgun guy was working his way through a shotgun course that included booby traps. The rifle guys could not see what the shotgun guy was doing. The shotgun guy was simulating "stealing transport to exfil the area for the riflemen" and if he was "killed" by the traps, the riflemen had a penalty cuz they didn't have a ride to the "finish". Score was based on targets successfully engaged by all on the team and time elapsed. According to the article, there was more than one rifle team that found out they didn't have a "ride" and were penalized time.
That team aspect is what has my interest more than run N gun as an individual. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, to be successful at a team match, each team member has to be assigned to the part that plays to their strengths. A team match could be setup so that all anybody ever has to shoot at any one match is one arm. Each shooter should bring arms to be any part of a team. Teams could be squaded up prior or mix n match by a draw. A team can be two or more shooters depending on the stage designs.
If this were to ever catch on, I'd be in.
That team aspect is what has my interest more than run N gun as an individual. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, to be successful at a team match, each team member has to be assigned to the part that plays to their strengths. A team match could be setup so that all anybody ever has to shoot at any one match is one arm. Each shooter should bring arms to be any part of a team. Teams could be squaded up prior or mix n match by a draw. A team can be two or more shooters depending on the stage designs.
If this were to ever catch on, I'd be in.
I have never gotten to shoot any kind of competition. I have always thought it looked like a ton of fun but it never looked like something I could afford. Money if absolutely the biggest hurdle for me. A chance to do a 2-gun would help. I could definitely eliminate the shotgun shooting and I don't think I would feel like I were missing out on anything.
I also have some pretty serious mobility limitations. Really bad back injuries paired with breaking my leg and foot a few years back have made it so that I really can't run. My life would need to depend on it. I think I would still enjoy it though if I had a good opportunity. I couldn't be competitive but I bet I would still have fun.
If I could show up to a two gun and run it with rimfire that would probably be just as much fun for me and it would make it something I could afford. I feel like that's not how it works though.
I also have some pretty serious mobility limitations. Really bad back injuries paired with breaking my leg and foot a few years back have made it so that I really can't run. My life would need to depend on it. I think I would still enjoy it though if I had a good opportunity. I couldn't be competitive but I bet I would still have fun.
If I could show up to a two gun and run it with rimfire that would probably be just as much fun for me and it would make it something I could afford. I feel like that's not how it works though.
I'll just add that in the Civil War stuff I currently shoot in, we don't have to run, all shooting is offhand from a "battle line" of your team and we shoot artillery for score too. Last I checked, there were no artillery stages in 3g. Sorry guys, but pulling the string on a 12lb howitzer is way more fun than about anything else in shooting games.
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That's good, because I'm slow.
But I like a challenge that's reasonable for my "skill" level and one that allows me to be safe and still have fun and learn about myself. I like to be able to finish a stage, too.
So not "rushing" would be good for us newbies. Especially those new to long guns. Like me!
This might make it complicated but...
Team options. Higher round count but is spread out over 2-3 members. Pistol, rifle, shotgun.
Gas, gun, ammo, water, snacks and entry fee.....the ammo now is the issue, but I did 2 handgun matches, and if I can afford that, I think most can. It was a LOT of fun, and I hope to do more. People will lend a rifle, I've had them say so, when I get ready to do a 2 gun.
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Not trying to be a Richard, but what does that have to do with a self defense situation. How many people have you EVER heard/read about that reloaded a shotgun in a home self defense situation.
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Let’s not derail the thread with Home/Self Defense issue. This is about GAMES that may, or may not, have real world benefits.
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I would definitely like to learn but I need to check the date which is close to a Florida trip. Both semi shotguns are currently loaned out across the country and eastern NC. Reloading would come from over unders and side by sides.
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Not sure where you are at, but there is the perfect match for you:
DPRC 2gun rimfire. You need a .22 pistol and a .22 rifle. Can have irons or red dots. Need to be semi auto, but they also allow levers and revos.
It’s all steel, with no running or movement. You shoot a bunch of steel targets from a set position. It’s about as much fun as you can have with guns. And can be fairly affordable.
Runs every month at DPRC south of Mebane.
Problem is: a team match everyone has to find a team. It’s like finding a band. Which is like being married to 2-4 other people. Which is dang near impossible.
That said, I did a 3man team 3gun and it was fun. But everybody still had to shoot 3guns. But you had to switch guns, sometimes choose who runs which guns, etc. Still completely dominated by the best shooters. Who still had the best gear and the best skills.
Around where I live I would be competing against the best the military has to offer!
As long as they aren’t competitive shooters you’ll probably beat them.
When I shoot 2/3 gun, its about shooting clean stages, smooth reloads, making good hits while moving.... I know the top few shooters at the match are usually Grandmasters, or sponsored shooters. I compete against "me" , not the Glock Grandmaster. If you go to a match to improve, or find your weak spots, you will learn a tremendous amount about your dynamic gun handling abilities. Heck, shooting a Mossy 835 turkey shotgun isn't optimal, but I know a guy that did it when his reg shotgun went down. Still shot the stages great.
I would love to get into some this, but wouldn't even know where to start.
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See my thread about an upcoming “mini camp”
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Camp scheduled
carolinafirearmsforum.com
3-Gun Mini Camp. Sunday March 21st
Sunday March 21st 1400-?? $25 prepaid Venue @VOD Tactical 438 Walker Drive Old Fort, NC 28762 Purpose The goal is to give exposure to the structure and etiquette of a typical 2 or 3-Gun match. After attending, a new shooter will have the confidence and core skill set to attend a formal match...
carolinafirearmsforum.com
I loved shooting 3 gun with the Asheville Practical Shooting Association some years back, when they had 4 per year. For whatever reason, attendance lacking I suppose, they are down to 2. Sometimes it was rained out too. It was great fun with some great guys, it just got too expensive, even shooting cheap 7.62x39 and aluminum 9mm Federal was about $80 with the round count and entrance fee, likely more than double that now. I always shot open, because of shooting a Vepr 12 with trigger, magazine upgrades, and a red dot, same with my Vepr rifle with similar improvements, it's what I already had, though I shot against the race guns. I didn't care, I wasn't there to win, I was building skills and having fun. My belt and ammo carriers were all cheap military surplus, they did the job for not much money. I would probably come if it wasn't too expensive.
I'm in! Like you I hate par times. I usually time out on most or all of the stages. I'm the guy who finishes near the bottom and is single loading off a bandolier (LOL). Did I mention I use iron sights as well? And like to use my 308 and pump gun? I'm about 45 minutes from you and I'd love to make a non par time 3 gun match a regular thing.
I also vote for a 22 division and hopefully the steel targets will allow use of Tula or other steel cased/bi metal ammo is that's about all the rifle ammo I have ATM.
I've SO'd in the past for IDPA and would possibly be willing to help out if needed.
I also vote for a 22 division and hopefully the steel targets will allow use of Tula or other steel cased/bi metal ammo is that's about all the rifle ammo I have ATM.
I've SO'd in the past for IDPA and would possibly be willing to help out if needed.