A first for me happened yesterday - scribe for a 4473

[DrScaryGuy]

I stopped into a local gunshop yesterday. The backstory is that a newer young guy has taken over as manager after their old manager separated ways during discovery of some questionable business practices. It's been less than a year, but the young guy has very much grown into his role and is running the place like a boss. Yesterday he was simultaneously trying to tell one newer employee how to do stuff, ask a different employee how things were done at a competitor when he worked there, generally explain regulation with compliance to employees and customers, as well as field a phone call with a distributor.
I just laughed and said "welcome to my world. we have the same job."

As I was looking at the goods, I suddenly heard him ask "(DrScaryGuy), can you scribe for this purchase and have (another person) witness?" as he ran past me on a call. I said "illiterate purchaser?" and he said "yup, him right here. here's his ID" as he jogged past me.
I had heard of doing that before, and knew it was allowed... but had i ever seen it done? nope.

Then again, me and him really do have the same job... Part of my employees' job is to document ID on forms that the govt can request and read regulated questions to illiterate donors. So I did the same thing we train our newest employees to do and scribed the 4473 for him, just in time for mr manager to come back, watch the scribe, witness, and purchaser all sign, and phone in the 4473.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

After working at a gun store for some time it really scares me when the illiterate become armed.

Owning a firearm to defend whatever it is you possess and believe in is fine, but if someone can't read, that means they have formed all their opinions based on something they have heard second hand by someone who has usually digested the information for them. They do not have the technical capability to read the constitution or any of the literary doctrine that our country was founded upon for themselves and therefore they can never possess a truly original opinion, and most of the "Information" these illiterates regurgitate is some Bs they heard from the likes of Joe Rogan or worse... Alex jones

 

[Meckmeister]

Very interesting. For just a moment I thought this was chapter one of a new mystery novel. You left me hanging!

 

[cubrock]

After working at a gun store for some time it really scares me when the illiterate become armed.

Owning a firearm to defend whatever it is you possess and believe in is fine, but if someone can't read, that means they have formed all their opinions based on something they have heard second hand by someone who has usually digested the information for them. They do not have the technical capability to read the constitution or any of the literary doctrine that our country was founded upon for themselves and therefore they can never possess a truly original opinion, and most of the "Information" these illiterates regurgitate is some Bs they heard from the likes of Joe Rogan or worse... Alex jones

Oh, so like 90% of Americans who CAN read? There are worse places to get news and views than Alex Jones. Like, Mother Jones….

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Oh, so like 90% of Americans who CAN read? There are worse places to get news and views than Alex Jones. Like, Mother Jones….

Haha ok you got me there. But There would actually be something to Alex jones if he could just organize his thoughts, don't get me wrong. However, from the guy BEHIND the counter's point of view, at least the literates can read a safety manual.

Also, if you are on this forum, it means you are literate. Congratulations

 

[cubrock]

Haha ok you got me there. But There would actually be something to Alex jones if he could just organize his thoughts, don't get me wrong. However, from the guy BEHIND the counter's point of view, at least the literates can read a safety manual.

Also, if you are on this forum, it means you are literate. Congratulations

Lol at your last comment.

I agree with you on Alex Jones. If he could organize his thoughts and control his crazy, he would have a pretty good show.

Also, I am an FFL. Have had a scribe situation only once.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Lol at your last comment.

I agree with you on Alex Jones. If he could organize his thoughts and control his crazy, he would have a pretty good show.

Also, I am an FFL. Have had a scribe situation only once.

I work at a gun store and it has really changed my opinion ab literally ANYONE being able to own a gun in America tbh

 

[JRV]

We did the scribe thing at my old FFL. Sometimes people break their dominant arm/hand/wrist, but they want the gun they want when they see it. Some people have tremors or arthritis that affects their primary hand—and they can shoot well-enough weak-handed, but still cannot write. Some folks just never learned how to write, but they were otherwise educated-enough to function in their relevant line-of-work.

 

[pigpen]

The guy who lives next to my grandpa never learned how to read or write...hes in his 60s now....He is a retired mechanic and now does odd jobs as a handyman....I knew him for years and years before i found out he couldnt read....he asked me to read something to him and i assumed he left his glasses at home...thats when he told me he never learned how to read......Ive met a lot dumber folks who can read

 

[Gunbelt]

After working at a gun store for some time it really scares me when the illiterate become armed.

Owning a firearm to defend whatever it is you possess and believe in is fine, but if someone can't read, that means they have formed all their opinions based on something they have heard second hand by someone who has usually digested the information for them. They do not have the technical capability to read the constitution or any of the literary doctrine that our country was founded upon for themselves and therefore they can never possess a truly original opinion, and most of the "Information" these illiterates regurgitate is some Bs they heard from the likes of Joe Rogan or worse... Alex jones

I think I read in the Constitution that folks that can’t read are not allowed a firearm to protect themselves! Boy don’t that sound good? Not no but hell no I didn’t read that pure horseshit cause it ain’t there!

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

I think I read in the Constitution that folks that can’t read are not allowed a firearm to protect themselves! Boy don’t that sound good? Not no but hell no I didn’t read that pure horseshit cause it ain’t there!

There are these three long hair dudes that shop at our store often. They all smell like morning breath and balls; we call them the Allman brothers. None of them can read so we have to get up close and do the scribe thing, this how we have become so familiar with what they smell like, not that you need to be that far away.

Anyways, those Allman brothers, they might stink, they can't read, but they sure can play the blues

 

[Scsmith42]

Back in 1975 I worked in an automotive parts house in Central Texas. There were a few times where customers would slide their checkbook across the counter for me to fill out. They would then very carefully sign their name.

The first time it happened it left me speechless. I grew up as a voracious reader, and to meet someone in their 59’s that could not read was incomprehensible to me.

 

[NKD]

After working at a gun store for some time it really scares me when the illiterate become armed.

Owning a firearm to defend whatever it is you possess and believe in is fine, but if someone can't read, that means they have formed all their opinions based on something they have heard second hand by someone who has usually digested the information for them. They do not have the technical capability to read the constitution or any of the literary doctrine that our country was founded upon for themselves and therefore they can never possess a truly original opinion, and most of the "Information" these illiterates regurgitate is some Bs they heard from the likes of Joe Rogan or worse... Alex jones

You mean the likes of CNN?

Rogan is great stuff. Have learned a ton from his many great guests and conversations. Elon Musk. Dave Chapell. Jordan Perterson. Too many to list. Nothing “illiterate” to be heard or seen.

That you compare him to Alex Jones says nothing about him, and everything about you.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

You mean the likes of CNN?

Rogan is great stuff. Have learned a ton from his many great guests and conversations. Elon Musk. Dave Chapell. Jordan Perterson. Too many to list. Nothing “illiterate” to be heard or seen.

That you compare him to Alex Jones says nothing about him, and everything about you.

Joe Rogan propagated the use of ivermectin for c*****v**** treatment...

If you like them as entertainment that's fine but should never treat him or Jones as legitimate news.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

My great grandfather was an illiterate Wilkes county boy. Apparently in the 19-teens reading wasn't all that useful in a mountain holler.
On his WW2 draft card he signed his name with an X and someone wrote "his mark" next to it.
I wager he could have outshot and out hunted anyone on this forum because when he was a boy he had to get good with a rifle and shotgun in order to keep food on the table.
Never had a drivers license either, but drove a car his entire life.
Him and my great grandmother were a definite "opposites attract" kind of couple. My great grandmother was college educated and retired from a government job.


Oh no. You've said the C word. Thread is doomed now.

Oops was I not supposed to do that? I'll edit it, what is the accepted terminology around here?

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

There isn't any. It's just guaranteed about 4 people will jump on what you've said and try and turn this thread into yet another virus thread.


Speaking of illiterate people, Charlemagne was illiterate. one of the most important figures in European history.

I know I know and Jimmi Hendrix couldn't read music... (Actually that's not true at all he definitely could read musical notation) but on the other side of the counter at the LGS, there are the aristocratic southern folks that secretly own McMillan tac 338 rifles, and the there are then bubba's that wear the aggressively patriotic shirts that blame the ammo shortage on the "damn liberal democrats". The latter half is generally less pleasant (and less literate) ... generally.
Refer to my post ab the Allman brothers on this thread

Then there is the man/woman who needs a scribe bc their hands shake so bad that they can't hold a pen straight, yet they are buying a shield ez for protection. Judgment aside as they may be ailing, the thought of them swinging a pistol around is terrifying.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Joe Rogan propagated the use of ivermectin for c*****v**** treatment...

If you like them as entertainment that's fine but should never treat him or Jones as legitimate news.

Not to derail the thread, but you might want to look into the usage for Ivermectin a little bit. Seriously.

A COVID-19 prophylaxis? Lower incidence associated with prophylactic administration of ivermectin

As COVID-19 (coronavirus disease 2019) continues to rapidly spread throughout the world, the incidence varies greatly among different countries. These differences raise the question whether nations with a lower incidence share any medical commonalities ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As COVID-19 is such a new disease, none of the existing MDA campaigns are targeted at controlling its spread. Nor is there any documented prophylactic use of the deployed drugs against SARS-CoV-2 infection. However, there is a very strong negative correlation between the use of PCT—especially involving ivermectin—and COVID-19 proliferation. This, paired with ivermectin's proven inhibitory effect on SARS-CoV-2 replication in vitro, leads us to the hypothesis that the drug may have a—likely indirect—prophylactic effect and thereby reduce the spread of the disease.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Not to derail the thread, but you might want to look into the usage for Ivermectin a little bit. Seriously.

A COVID-19 prophylaxis? Lower incidence associated with prophylactic administration of ivermectin

As COVID-19 (coronavirus disease 2019) continues to rapidly spread throughout the world, the incidence varies greatly among different countries. These differences raise the question whether nations with a lower incidence share any medical commonalities ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As COVID-19 is such a new disease, none of the existing MDA campaigns are targeted at controlling its spread. Nor is there any documented prophylactic use of the deployed drugs against SARS-CoV-2 infection. However, there is a very strong negative correlation between the use of PCT—especially involving ivermectin—and COVID-19 proliferation. This, paired with ivermectin's proven inhibitory effect on SARS-CoV-2 replication in vitro, leads us to the hypothesis that the drug may have a—likely indirect—prophylactic effect and thereby reduce the spread of the disease.

Awww just as I was trying to steer things back on topic

 

[Studentofthegun]

I know I know and Jimmi Hendrix couldn't read music... (Actually that's not true at all he definitely could read musical notation) but on the other side of the counter at the LGS, there are the aristocratic southern folks that secretly own McMillan tac 338 rifles, and the there are then bubba's that wear the aggressively patriotic shirts that blame the ammo shortage on the "damn liberal democrats". The latter half is generally less pleasant (and less literate) ... generally.
Refer to my post ab the Allman brothers on this thread

Then there are the people there is the man/woman who needs a scribe bc their hands shake so bad that they can't hold a pen straight, yet they are buying a shield ez for protection. Judgment aside as they may be ailing, the thought of them swinging a pistol around is terrifying.

The "Allman brothers", despite rankling your tender olfactories and even more tender sensibilities have every right to keep and bear arms. As do elderly people that "terrify" you.

Yesterday I spent most of the day helping two elderly people learn to run a Smith and Wesson EZ .380. That firearm, coupled with a biometric safe to keep unauthorized fingers away from said firearm, is their only means of defense if and when someone with bad intentions darkens their door.

I used to work behind the gun counter too, many moons ago. It becomes easy to judge people. Sometimes what comes across as them being "cheap" is simply a lack of funds.
It never helps to allow yourself to resent your customers. You're not there to judge people. You're there to make money. So long as they can pass the check and their money is green, there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Awww just as I was trying to steer things back on topic

I mean, you did make an ignorant comment by just regurgitating 90% of what you have heard in the media.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

I mean, you did make an ignorant comment by just regurgitating 90% of what you have heard in the media.

I knew that was gonna make someone mad. I didn't really regurgitate anything though.

 

[Studentofthegun]

After working at a gun store for some time it really scares me when the illiterate become armed.

Owning a firearm to defend whatever it is you possess and believe in is fine, but if someone can't read, that means they have formed all their opinions based on something they have heard second hand by someone who has usually digested the information for them. They do not have the technical capability to read the constitution or any of the literary doctrine that our country was founded upon for themselves and therefore they can never possess a truly original opinion, and most of the "Information" these illiterates regurgitate is some Bs they heard from the likes of Joe Rogan or worse... Alex jones

You don't have any original opinions either. You just think you do. Truly original thought is exceedingly rare.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

The "Allman brothers", despite rankling your tender olfactories and even more tender sensibilities have every right to keep and bear arms. As do elderly people that "terrify" you.

Yesterday I spent most of the day helping two elderly people learn to run a Smith and Wesson EZ .380. That firearm, coupled with a biometric safe to keep unauthorized fingers away from said firearm, is their only means of defense if and when someone with bad intentions darkens their door.

I used to work behind the gun counter too, many moons ago. It becomes easy to judge people. Sometimes what comes across as them being "cheap" is simply a lack of funds.
It never helps to allow yourself to resent your customers. You're not there to judge people. You're there to make money. So long as they can pass the check and their money is green, there shouldn't be a problem.

It's not a pass of judgement on whether they should retain their rights, but moreso the fact that even though everyone buys firearms for protection, actual statistics reval that the majority of people who own guns will end up shooting themselves (either on purpose or by accident) if they ever shoot anyone at all, and if they are extremely unfortunate it will be their children.

 

[ChickenHawk]

I knew that was gonna make someone mad. I didn't really regurgitate anything though.

I mean you are saying exactly what the media says and not the science, but you do you. I'm not mad, but I am laughing at the hypocrisy with a side of putting your foot in your mouth.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

I mean you are saying exactly what the media says and not the science, but you do you. I'm not mad, but I am laughing at the hypocrisy with a side of putting your foot in your mouth.

Are you referring to post #25?

because that's not anybody's opinion

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

More Americans died of gun-related injuries in 2021 than in any other year on record, according to the latest available statistics from the CDC.

www.pewresearch.org

I realize someone might jump in and try to start a flame war, but when dealing with people who may be handling loaded firearms in your store (and potentially pointing them at you, see thread about the guy in Benson) it is often wise to pass judgment if for no other reason than preventing a fool from making a fatal error. That has less to do with literacy and more about life lessons.

 

[NCLivingBrit]

I can tell this dude isn't going to be around long lol

 

[Cape Fear]

It's not a pass of judgement on whether they should retain their rights, but moreso the fact that even though everyone buys firearms for protection, actual statistics reval that the majority of people who own guns will end up shooting themselves (either on purpose or by accident) if they ever shoot anyone at all, and if they are extremely unfortunate it will be their children.

So why don't we dump 'em people, to the bottom of the sea? Before some old fool come around here, wanna shoot either you or me?

Srsly, I have no clue where you stand on gun ownership after your ramblings in this thread but, it don't look good...

 

[Studentofthegun]

It's not a pass of judgement on whether they should retain their rights, but moreso the fact that even though everyone buys firearms for protection, actual statistics reval that the majority of people who own guns will end up shooting themselves (either on purpose or by accident) if they ever shoot anyone at all, and if they are extremely unfortunate it will be their children.

You are passing judgment, that much is certain.

The way you have structured your argument here is kind of a mess, to be quite honest. You're saying that the majority of people that buy guns for protection statistically are more likely to shoot themselves or a family member than an assailant?

Ok, that might be true but that's not the whole story. You might want to look into the research conducted by Gary Kleck and others regarding defensive gun use. I think you'll find that successful use of firearms for defense doesn't always mean a round is fired.

Honestly, I think you're in the wrong line of work and on the wrong internet forum.

 

[Studentofthegun]

Are you referring to post #25?

because that's not anybody's opinion

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

More Americans died of gun-related injuries in 2021 than in any other year on record, according to the latest available statistics from the CDC.

www.pewresearch.org

I realize someone might jump in and try to start a flame war, but when dealing with people who may be handling loaded firearms in your store (and potentially pointing them at you, see thread about the guy in Benson) it is often wise to pass judgment if for no other reason than preventing a fool from making a fatal error. That has less to do with literacy and more about life lessons.

Ok, I think you're conflating two completely different things.

And in case you missed it before, I have done your job before.

Safe handling of firearms inside a gun store is one issue. Judging people based upon their level of literacy, or perhaps even where they decide to get their news and information, is another.

You can see those as separate things, right?

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Ok, I think you're conflating two completely different things.

And in case you missed it before, I have done your job before.

Safe handling of firearms inside a gun store is one issue. Judging people based upon their level of literacy, or perhaps even where they decide to get their news and information, is another.

You can see those as separate things, right?

Yes we got sidetracked somewhere when ivermectin was mentioned. the point was that a 4473 is a legal document. You HAVE to fill one out to legally buy anything that shoots bullets. It involves alot of personal information and a contractual obligation you are about to make to buy the firearm, you should probably know what it says, that's all.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Anyone else think this sounds like a middle aged Yankee that moved south?

 

[Studentofthegun]

You HAVE to fill one out to legally buy anything that shoots bullets. It involves alot of personal information and a contractual obligation you are about to make to buy the firearm, you should probably know what it says, that's all.

Nope. That is not correct. You don't have to fill out a 4473 for a black powder rifle. Nor does one have to fill one out to in a private transaction for a long gun.

Also, I'm not sure there is an actual contractual obligation either. Someone could win a firearm in a contest or at a match and not have to "buy" it. The financial aspect of the transaction isn't really addressed by the 4473.

What's addressed by the 4473 is the transfer of the item.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Anyone else think this sounds like a middle aged Yankee that moved south?

My opinion on this didn't change on any of this until a guy from somewhere in new England came in one time with a loaded gun and nearly shot someone trying to clear it actually.

I'll give an example, in the armed forces, if you are on the ground, before you get your rifle, you are trained on how to use it. Part of that training includes READING the associated manual that comes with any weapon/piece of equipment. That is all.

 

[Jayne]

Maybe I can use this feature next time so I don't have to pull out the walmart readers trying to see the form.

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Nope. That is not correct. You don't have to fill out a 4473 for a black powder rifle. Nor does one have to fill one out to in a private transaction for a long gun.

Also, I'm not sure there is an actual contractual obligation either. Someone could win a firearm in a contest or at a match and not have to "buy" it. The financial aspect of the transaction isn't really addressed by the 4473.

What's addressed by the 4473 is the transfer of the item.

It is absolutely a contractual obligation stating that you are telling the truth on a federal form when you sign it. To the point of the thread, even if someone else is a scribe the transferee still must sign acknowledging that they provided truthful information.

 

[Cape Fear]

My opinion on this didn't change on any of this until a guy from somewhere in new England came in one time with a loaded gun and nearly shot someone trying to clear it actually.

Yeah, umm, could that dude read?

I'll give an example, in the armed forces, if you are on the ground, before you get your rifle, you are trained on how to use it. Part of that training includes READING the associated manual that comes with any weapon/piece of equipment. That is all.

I don't know about your raisin', but my siblings, my own kids, and I were all learning to shoot at the same time we were learning to read. And some of us shoot much better than we read! I'll wager that is true for a lot of the folks on this forum. And a lot of your [sneer] customers [/sneer].

 

[IroquoisPliskin]

Yeah, umm, could that dude read?
I don't know about your raisin', but my siblings, my own kids, and I were all learning to shoot at the same time we were learning to read. And some of us shoot much better than we read! I'll wager that is true for a lot of the folks on this forum. And a lot of your [sneer] customers [/sneer].

I don't know about the guy from new England, he got kicked out, I just thought your preconceived notion about me being a Yankee was funny.
I do value your opinion though. My input is solely based on trends among people I have noticed. Not everyone has to agree about it.

 

[Studentofthegun]

It is absolutely a contractual obligation stating that you are telling the truth on a federal form when you sign it. To the point of the thread, even if someone else is a scribe the transferee still must sign acknowledging that they provided truthful information.

But not a financial one, as you indicated before. I'm not trying to get into semantics here, but if you're going to try to act as if you know what is and isn't true, and tell folks what news sources they should and shouldn't consume, you need to get your own facts straight.

I'm not trying to get onto you here as much as I am trying to make a point that I hope you will take to heart.

It is easy, once you become proficient with firearms and stand behind the counter, to judge other people. Perhaps even to look down on them. Maybe you've even won a few matches. You start to think you've got some answers.

That's actually a very good thing. Being competent with firearms and being able to defend yourself is part of being a capable human being.

Some people have cognitive disabilities that might affect them in one area and not another. They might have financial challenges. It is difficult to know exactly what their deal is when your interaction with them lasts no more than a few minutes while they decide on which firearm they want and then purchase it.

The thing to try to remember, in my humble opinion, is to be as inclusive as you can rather than be exlusive.

We should be trying to encourage firearm ownership. Not curtail it or act as additional arbiters of who should and should not have a firearm over and above what the federal government or state government prescribes.

The right to self defense is sacrosanct. It should be treated as such, especially by a person standing behind a gun counter. Some of your customers will have forgotten more than you will ever know. Some people are ignorant and scared. Why? Well, the world can be a scary place, especially when we have seen the amount of riots and all sorts of other things on television.

Those people, for better or worse, are counting on YOU when they walk in that store. You are, in many cases, the first Ambassador of Firearms they have ever met.

If you don't want to embrace that role and look at it like just another low tier retail job, that's your prerogative. But if you do, you're missing out.

 

[Gunbelt]

"You HAVE to fill one out to legally buy anything that shoots bullets."

Nope that is not true!

 

[Cape Fear]

I don't know about the guy from new England, he got kicked out, I just thought your preconceived notion about me being a Yankee was funny.

That wasn't me, that was @ChickenHawk. I fully realize that arrogant people come from all over the globe. But this is the second time you've brought it up and not really answered so I'll ask straight out: Where were you born and raised? Not that it really matters, I'm just curious. I have never lived north of North Carolina.

I do value your opinion though. My input is solely based on trends among people I have noticed. Not everyone has to agree about it.

Sounds like we hang around a different crowd (based on the "people you have noticed"). Maybe your disdain for the customer base at your shop should prompt some reflection on your career choices? I love my customers and the ones I don't love, I get rid of. But I'm in a different business than you.