Active Shooter being reported at Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam....

Discussion in 'Firearms News and Views' started by SPM, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    ....supposedly in the shipyard, in Drydock 2. The nuclear submarine USS Missouri is reported to be in Drydock 2.

    This is 3 minutes fresh via some Navy friends that are still in via social media. Likely hasn’t hit the news yet....

    EDIT TO ADD: Base is on full lockdown.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  2. ronn47

    ronn47 Where's the Scotch? Charter Member Benefactor Life Member

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    I hope all there are safe.
     
  3. Rob

    Rob Active Member Benefactor Life Member

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    Hopefully there's a good guy with a gun nearby.
    Keep us posted!
     
  4. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

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    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
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  5. lasttombstone

    lasttombstone New Member

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    Wonder if it was a military guy. I thought Hawaii had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the states.
     
  6. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    Update on the submarine Missouri: she was undocked a couple days ago and is no longer in Drydock. All personnel from that ship are accounted for.
     
  7. Qball

    Qball Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    That's why it's no surprise, to me anyway, that there's an active shooter there.
     
  8. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    My gut tells me this was an armed watchstander. Either the topside watch, the chief of the watch, or the shutdown roving watch from the engine room.

    I suppose it’s possible it was a shipyard bubba though.
     
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  9. 11B CIB

    11B CIB Administrator Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    I’ve been to JB Pearl. The Navy Exchange mall was pretty big...had an escalator/two levels. I was an army grunt at the time and I was used to lesser AAFES standards

    Like mentioned above, the shooter was probably military. Hope the wounded turn out OK
     
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  10. MostWanted

    MostWanted I used to be JustInCase

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    I was stationed there in 1985-1987, and I was at those piers daily.
     
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  11. Ben Jefferson

    Ben Jefferson Active Member Supporting Member

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    Always a good guy with a gun near the dry docks!

    Too many issues could be visible.
     
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  12. dkmatthews

    dkmatthews Active Member Life Member

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    I was never a bubblehead, so I don't know the SOP for them. When I was on active duty on surface ships, though, I was a trained member of the SSDF. I only hope there were responders readily available and that injuries were minor.
     
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  13. SmokeyJoe

    SmokeyJoe Psalm 144:1 Charter Member Life Member

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  14. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

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    An armed, active-duty sailor opened fire on three civilian employees,
    killing two, before he fatally shot himself at the Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard near Honolulu on Wednesday afternoon.
    Personal weapons are not allowed on the base. One victim still in hospital.
     
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  15. Jerzsubbie

    Jerzsubbie Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

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    Yup and they can’t use the Chicago excuse that criminal get guns from nearby states with laxed laws. They’re on a damn island in the middle of the Pacific!

    Seriously though, glad to hear the shooter took himself out before doing more harm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  16. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    Apparently, the kid was an E-3, went to NJP the day before yesterday and was busted down to E-2.

    The above seems completely irrelevant in light of who his victims were, unless they were key in his going to Captain's Mast in the first place.
     
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  17. noway2

    noway2 Senior Member Charter Life Member

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    Had to look up NJP (I’m not military). Given the list of punishment options, reduction in rank seems awfully severe (and guaranteed to lead to an appeal or demand court martial instead). Without knowing what the offense was, yeah, I’d guess they were involved and got him hot water somehow.
     
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  18. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    In most cases, reduction in rate (enlisted rank in the Navy) is usually accompanied by forfeiture of a percentage of pay per months per so many months, restriction to the boat and extra duties over the course of those months. But to get that kind of punishment in NJP, whatever you did is typically something you don't want to go the Court Martial route. At least from seeing the results of various masts over the years.

    @RetiredUSNChief may have more perspective given he retired and got to see more of that than I did, especially as a chief.
     
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  19. Rob

    Rob Active Member Benefactor Life Member

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    E3 busted to E2.
    That's a difference of about $24/month and could have gotten E3 back in 3-6 months (depending on NJP)
    Murder/Suicide seems like a reasonable solution... WTF?
     
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  20. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    Another source is saying it was a petty officer (at least an E4) attached to the submarine USS Columbia.

    So I guess like most of these situations, lots of seemingly conflicting information until the media gets all their shit in one sock.
     
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  21. Derek8404

    Derek8404 Plank Owner Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Of course no amount is worth murdering over but it’s more than $24 a month difference. Could be as much as $350 a month to as little as $97 depending on how many years he has in.
     
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  22. Derek8404

    Derek8404 Plank Owner Charter Member Supporting Member

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    Getting busted from E3 to E2 is not that serious really. You can easily bounce back from that.
     
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  23. Ben Jefferson

    Ben Jefferson Active Member Supporting Member

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    True, busted from E-4 Corporal to E-1 Private in 1975. I survived it and made a successful career of the military. The $ was so minimal at that time too. It did effect my beer consumption when I got out of the brig though!
     
  24. georgel

    georgel Behind Every Blade of Grass

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  25. MostWanted

    MostWanted I used to be JustInCase

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    I stood inport Officer Of The Deck watches on the aircraft carrier Saratoga, home ported Mayport FL in the early 1980's. There were two ways onto the ship: the officer's entrance forward where I (O3) was strapped with a Beretta M9, and the crew's entrance aft, which was an aircraft elevator lowered to the hangar bay level. The crew's entrance was staffed at by at least 2-3, and led by a Chief Petty Officer (E7+) or maybe a First Class PO (E6) armed similarly. I know things have changed, and it was a sub vs. a carrier. Maybe if it was in dry dock for major refit lasting several months, they could have suspended the traditional quarterdeck watches. Otherwise, I would be pretty surprised if the only armed person at the entrance to a nuclear submarine was an E3.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  26. BudE

    BudE Hillsborough, NC

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    Ummm, no, at least not while I was in. I attended a lot of courts martial since I was a chaser. I cannot for the life of me remember anyone requesting a court martial after office hours (what NJP was called in the Marine Corps). That might have happened with an officer but certainly not with the enlisted swine. Usually what they did with an officer that ubgufugd was throw his ass out very quietly. There were of course certain rare exceptions (Calley). An enlisted could also request to have an enlisted man on his court martial. I can recall one case where that happened. They put TWO enlisted men on the panel; one a Sgt Major and the other a Gunnery sgt. I vividly recall both of them had Silver Stars and hash marks up and down their sleeves. Hahahahaha, what a freaking mistake, the two of them wanted to send his ass to Portsmouth rather than the Camp Lejeune brig.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  27. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    Yeah, guys I was in with and are still at Pearl talked to some boys from the Columbia. They said he used an M4 to shoot the 3 civilians (sounding like shipyard workers), then turned the M9 on himself.

    Topside only had an M9 last I was on, along with the Shutdown Roving Watch in the Engine Room. Pier sentry (if there was one) would have had a Mossberg 500.

    The thing that has me scratching my head is why you would arm a kid the day after he went to a disciplinary proceeding where he was “awarded” a reduction in rate (and probably more). That just seems asinine to me.....though I was just an enlisted puke.
     
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  28. Car0linab0y

    Car0linab0y Member

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    ^this ftw... After NJP we wouldn't let Joe bagodonuts drive for base taxi for a week, let alone let them bear arms. Additional duty involved hot sweaty work under supervision. SMFH.
     
  29. 11B CIB

    11B CIB Administrator Staff Member Charter Life Member

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    I’m now reading that several complaints were raised about this kid getting an armed position after his problems, especially since he had been NJP’d, having duty related discipline issues, and was enrolled in anger management courses.
     
  30. Chuckman

    Chuckman Senior Member Sponsor

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    And another at NAS Pensacola today.... jeez....
     
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  31. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    Yeah, I just saw something saying the same thing. The anger management issues should have been a huge clue to the command that maybe, just maybe, the kid didn’t need to be part of the ship security force.
     
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  32. Crazy Carl

    Crazy Carl seriously? Life Member

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    Sounds more & more like the Obama purge of senior leadership is beginning to pay dividends.
     
  33. MostWanted

    MostWanted I used to be JustInCase

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    This just shows you how prescient and forward thinking Bill Clinton was when he disarmed all our service members on all bases. You just can't trust those guys with guns. Imagine how awful it would have been if some other service member with his own gun stepped in with his vigilante justice and tried to stop him. Much better to let the authorities handle it.
     
  34. J R Green

    J R Green Member Charter Life Member

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    Are you saying that there were some Red Flags?;)
     
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  35. SPM

    SPM Wobomagonda Life Member

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    lol. I carefully chose the words huge clue.... :D
     
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  36. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Get over it, snowflake. Charter Life Member

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    OK...a little insight (geared towards those with no prior military, or Navy, experience).

    NJP is non-judicial punishment. It's also known as "Captain's Mast" in the Navy. The Army and Air Force guys know it as "Article 15", in reference to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) chapter which governs this.

    NJP is exactly what it says "NON-JUDICIAL punishment". It allows Commanding Officers to deal with minor infractions of the UCMJ punitive articles which really don't need the attention of a Courts-Martial and does NOT result in a criminal conviction and therefore no criminal record to follow the person afterwards. It is administrative.

    (Technically, any violation of any punitive article of the UMCJ can go to Courts-Martial).

    Also, because it's not a judicial proceeding, the rules of evidence and other aspects required under a judicial proceeding don't apply. However, the punishment that can be awarded at NJP is strictly limited by Article 15 of the UCMJ because of this. It's an interesting article to read, and you can Google it to get more.

    The max punishment allowed falls under 3 categories, but the absolute is:

    - Reduction in rank limited to one pay grade for E-5 and E-6; E-4 and below can be reduced all the way to E-1.

    - 1/2 months pay for 2 months.

    - 45 days extra duty.

    - 60 days restriction (45 if combined with extra duty).

    When I said "rules of evidence don't apply", this doesn't mean the CO just tosses those out the window. If a person is going to NJP, it's going tho be cut and dry. The CO is not going to waste his time if it's not. If you're UA (Unauthorized Absence), repeatedly delinquent in your qualifications, violated procedures/regulations, been involved with a DUI, banging a shipmate's wife and was stupid enough to get caught on video, etc., there's usually plenty of solidly documented evidence.

    Reduction in rate for lower pay grades is less severe because of two factors: the change in pay isn't as drastic and the requirements to advance back up to where you were are significantly less. This means a person at E-4 and below can pretty quickly get themselves back on track to recover their former rank and meet the requirements to move up to E-5 fairly quickly.

    Losing rank from E-5 and E-6 is more expensive. Not only is thir pay cut bigger, the recovery time is longer because you have longer time-in-rate requirements you have to meet before you're eligible, and the exam requirements are generally tougher and the promotion numbers are harder to achieve. It may also cost you in other ways... like reductions in your allowance limits (BAH/BAQ), eligibility for certain other pays and qualifications etc.

    JUNIOR PEOPLE, however, may take NJP significantly harder psychologically than a more senior person. While we all know that idiots and *ssholes generally don't give enough of a rat's *ss to care what others may think or do, going in front of "The Old Man" is a pretty traumatic event for some.

    Traumatic enough that there is, in my opinion, plenty of room to take into account a person's dignity. It's bad enough to have to go before the "Green Table" (NJP is generally conducted in a setting with a green cloth over the desk/table between the Captain and the Sailor). It's worse if it hits you hard enough to bring you to tears and then you have to walk in front of your shipmate's this easy. People affected this way are generally afforded time in relative privacy to get a grip on their emotions and recover their dignity.

    OTHER INTERESTING STUFF:

    If you go to NJP for something, the CO cannot take you to NJP for the same violation again. HOWEVER, you CAN still go to Courts-Material for the same violation.

    Some administrative things can be done to make things worse if your thinking was stupid. For example, let's say you're an E-5 and you have passed the E-6 exam and have been selected for advancement. You're just waiting to put that next chevron on. Until you get paid for it, you're still an E-5. (Important to understand, because the Navy allows "frocking", where you're allowed to wear the next higher rank while waiting to get paid for it). If you screw up and get written up for something before getting paid as an E-6, all the command has to do is write a special evaluation and remove your recommendation for advancement. Note you're stuck at E-5 going to NJP, where the CO can then bust you down to E-4.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  37. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Get over it, snowflake. Charter Life Member

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    Bottom line, NJP MAY cost you quite a bit... but it's not going to follow you as a criminal record and when you get out, nobody will know unless you tell them.

    Though some MAY suspect based on things like a really low rank compared to the time you were in service.
     
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  38. Ben Jefferson

    Ben Jefferson Active Member Supporting Member

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    One quick follow-up to RetiredUSNChief's explanation, adjustments made to the SRB (sevice record book), which actually was paper in my case by superior commanders. For example; after I had been promoted to SSGT the contents and references to the Summary Courts Marshall SCM were stricken.

    apparently for those that overcome youthful indiscretions, there can be removed. I never worked in a JAG, so I do not know the administrative process/rules involved but it happens. That act opened me up to certain duty options and billets I would have been exempt from otherwise due to my record.
     
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  39. Car0linab0y

    Car0linab0y Member

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    Yes, the whole point of NJP is to correct and guide folks worth saving due to minor indiscretions. As an administrative tool, there is a lot of leeway commanders have to fix things.
     
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  40. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Get over it, snowflake. Charter Life Member

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    EXACTLY.

    I've seen many instances where the outcome was similar to the following:

    - 1/2 month's pay times 1.

    - 30 days restriction.

    - Reduction in rate, suspended for 6 months.

    Translated, that means the guy was fined 1/2 month's pay for one month, was stuck on the ship for 30 days, and STILL RETAINED HIS PAY GRADE.

    The "suspended" part was the COs way of saying "I'm THIS close to knocking you down one pay grade, but I think you've learned your lesson so I won't. But prove me wrong in the next 6 months and I'll make it so without having to take you to another NJP to do it."

    Call it "probation", if you will.

    The kicker, though, is if you screw up badly enough to go to NJP again, that means you go at the reduced rank... which means he can bust you down from there. You stand to lose 2 pay grades, in other words.

    COs rarely dish out the max allowable without some really good reason. And they do consider "extenuating circumstances" (things that make the offense less serious, such as being charged with assault but you can show you didn't initiate the fight and was caught up in circumstances) and "mitigating circumstances" (things which may indicate reason to reduce the punishment itself, such as character witnesses, family difficulties, financial problems, etc.)

    COs can tailor their punishment options as they see fit to get the point across to the person without adversely affecting his family in the process. Maybe instead of half a months pay, he gets 30 days restriction, for example. Which may actually not affect his family at all if he's deployed at the time.

    COs deal with *ssholes and idiots all the time... but they also deal with people who just made poor choices and need to understand those choices have consequences. He doesn't want to get rid of (or destroy the character of) an otherwise good servicemember who has potential.
     
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