Damn_Yankee
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Another P320 firing uncommanded?
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NCLivingBrit
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Well he is a Sig beta tester. All their customers are.
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Sure, ācause nobody was injured and no large contract was in jeopardy.
First it was Glock Leg. Now we have Sig Leg.
Another striker-fired pistole' that can flat wreck your day.
Like a savvy old cop once told me.
Once is a coincidence. Twice, and it becomes evidence.
Me? I like hammer guns and manual safeties.
Another striker-fired pistole' that can flat wreck your day.
Like a savvy old cop once told me.
Once is a coincidence. Twice, and it becomes evidence.
Me? I like hammer guns and manual safeties.
while Iām no sig or P320 fan, unfortunately there way too many missing pieces of information to come to these conclusions. I understand he has provided an analysis but there is not a shred of evidence the pistol fired on its own nor that Sig admitted anything. I have stated several times the P320 has an incredibly short trigger pull with a fully tensioned firing system. My $$ is that he reholstered with his finger on the trigger. Iām not making an excuse for the P320 as I believe the pistols trigger mechanism affords a very narrow margin of safety for any user and is primed for such NDs. Itās one of the reasons I abandoned the P320 years ago. However my disdain for the P320ās design is distinct from whether it is mechanically unsafe. Ultimately to conclude the pistol fired uncommanded while in the holster I need to see some proof and not just his range report.
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That was my first response before watching the video, and ordinarily, I'd be in agreement.
But, two things stand out that make me think...maybe not.
First, he doesn't strike me as someone unfamiliar with pistols of that class and the inherent dangers of hasty reholstering with anything in the path of the trigger.
Second, he said that he'd familiarized himself with the pistol with 800 rounds prior to taking it to the match. Surely during that process, he'd reholstered the gun several times.
Maybe he'll follow up with statements from his witnesses.
no amount of training eliminates human error. Not 800, 8000 or 80,000 rounds. The fact that he thinks 800 rounds is a meaningful amount of training is hilarious. Todd Green and other trainers would laugh at that.
Law of parsimony (aka Occamās razor) dictates that he had his finger on the trigger during reholstering. This is a common error, and common things are common. Its the same reason why all these P320 ND stories center around a holster. And honestly nobody should be surprised. Itās a fully tensioned trigger mechanism with a short trigger travel.
if we get to see some convincing footage Iāll reconsider. But I also find it suspect that he sent the gun back to Sig and that was the end. the outcome alone doesnāt even add up.
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Understood and agreed, but he didn't say that his 800 rounds was meaningful training, only that he'd fired 800 rounds through the gun prior to the match...AND...you're assuming that he'd never had experience with a pistol of that class.
Could it have been the holster itself rather than his finger on the trigger?
Like you, I'd like to have more information, mainly to satisfy my own curiosity.
"Law of parsimony (aka Occamās razor) dictates that he had his finger on the trigger during reholstering. This is a common error, and common things are common."
Oh, absolutely. Reholstering is the reason that the US Army wanted a manual safety on the 1911. Even in those antiquited days, the thinking heads understood that a man under stress may forget to take his finger off the trigger before jamming a cocked pistol into a holster.
Trusting a Sig?
While human error is the cause of the vast majority of negligent firearm discharges three important things he said in the video back up his account:
1. It was during a match with an RO right there. Not only would the shooter have to make a mistake but so would the RO. Still possible but far less likely.
2. The pistol was in the holster after the errant shot. If it was the classic āfinger on the trigger when you holsterā the pistol would have still been in his hand.
3. Most importantly Sig found and admitted to a mechanical defect. When it comes to problems that can be litigated companies donāt easily admit to fault.
Timfoilhat
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Bad firing pin return spring? Hmmmmm.
So, I'm thinking the guy's description of the part is maybe off a little. The "return spring" would be the "reset spring" I think. I can't see how a faulure there could cause a gun to fire, when that spring releases energy it moves the stirker away from the primer. That assembly does include a "striker safety lock spring". I don't know what that is, but it sounds like it could fail and defeat something to cause a bad result.
Looks like 16 is the safety lock and 17 is the spring.
So, I'm thinking the guy's description of the part is maybe off a little. The "return spring" would be the "reset spring" I think. I can't see how a faulure there could cause a gun to fire, when that spring releases energy it moves the stirker away from the primer. That assembly does include a "striker safety lock spring". I don't know what that is, but it sounds like it could fail and defeat something to cause a bad result.
Looks like 16 is the safety lock and 17 is the spring.
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Been to 2 USPSA Steel Challenge Pistol matches with AD's resulting in injury. As is required in this kind of match for center fire pistols, reholstering with a live round in the chamber. Whether or not finger was on trigger or what type of gun, I dont know but reholstering hot was definitely part of the process.
If this was during a transition in a match, I can certainly see a) the RO not fully watching him reholster, and we also only have his opinion on what the RO saw or said, and b) when you are against the clock, adrenaline is high, and are focused on multiple movements, it can be very difficult to distinguish "went off as I was actively reholstering" from "went off a split second after it was already fully seated in the holster".
If the safety lock or its spring failed, the sear would still have to drop to release the striker, so that's either a 2nd mechanical failure or the user pulled the trigger.
In a cocked/ready position, I don't see how the striker reset spring has any mechanical effect whatsoever.
It would be nice to get a true post-mortem of what happened here, beyond "everyone agrees my gun totally went off by itself, bro" but I doubt we ever will.
Itās a Sig, theyāve been going off by themselves forever.
Timfoilhat
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Yep. I still think the sear mating surface tolerances are too little, and the variance between the parts tolerances in the assembly are the culprit. Some guns will never do this. Others with the right mix of too small parts might bo bang. Now we add the third wrinkle...it's possible that the safety lock...the 2nd line of defense might be doing the heavy lifting on these smaller tolerance guns and with enough use the safety lock/safety lock spring fails.
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Damn_Yankee
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Does anyone know how much of the P320's fire control system design bleeds over to the P365?
There are definite differences in the amount of shirt material near the entrance to the holster in the two pics. The first one is about the 1:25 mark, the second at about 1:45. He obviously tucked his shirt in for the second pic [Edit: or has his right shoulder raised.]
Reholster for the 4th time on a stage with live rounds, material gets into the trigger guard, arms lifted to surrender position and bang gun goes off. To me that's not out of the realm of probabilities.
Since Sig said the gun had a problem I guess my analysis and speculation are off-base, or at least moot. I have extra girth, and therefore shirt material, around my middle. I had SOs at IDPA say "watch your shirt" enough that I almost instinctively use my left hand to pull my shirt tight.
As I said in another thread, I keep a P320 Tacops with an added X-grip under the pillow next to me, along with a Ruger American Pistol. I instructed the Ruger to shoot the Sig if it made a move during the night. So far, so good.
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Before we can make a call either way, we need to know a few things about this pistol's fire controls.
Mainly, is there a redundant or "fail safe" mechanism in place to arrest the striker should the striker release mechanism break or fail? Think half cock notch or something of similar function.
If there is, then...no...the pistol can't fire unless the trigger is pulled and actively held rearward.
If there isn't, then it is possible...though unlikely...that the striker could fall independent of the trigger.
Mainly, is there a redundant or "fail safe" mechanism in place to arrest the striker should the striker release mechanism break or fail? Think half cock notch or something of similar function.
If there is, then...no...the pistol can't fire unless the trigger is pulled and actively held rearward.
If there isn't, then it is possible...though unlikely...that the striker could fall independent of the trigger.
Would be just as easy to forget the safety under stress before jamming pistol in holster..
I also find it interesting from these stills that the Kydex appears to have been blown apart at the fold (unless there's something I'm missing about the design of that holster). The holster appears to be an open muzzle type, and the fold clears the front sight. Even if the slide traveled backwards while fully holstered, nothing should make the kydex split/crack at the fold because there is no interference (i.e., the slide traveling backwards during firing follows the same path as if you were to manually unholster the gun). Not to mention the fact that most people will lower retention on these holsters during matches to facilitate quicker draw times. That seems to indicate to me that the gun was at some sort of angle at the time of firing, OR that there was some sort of additional material wedged in there that was tight enough to cause the kydex to split when firing.
Edit: As I think about it more, the split theoretically could be caused by the brass attempting to eject, but I just racked the slide on a fully loaded pistol still in the holster, and it only failed to eject the round and it was loose in the chamber, not wedged against the holster, etc.
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the p365 was developed from the ground up and shares very little with the p320. I have heard that the next generation of the p320 will be based on the p365 fcu... but that's just internet rumors.
I believe the real question you're asking is if the p365 is suffers from the same issues as the p320 and is unsafe: No, the p365 is supposedly safer than the p320.
I've watched this video and comments blow up on a few Sig forums... call me in 7 stages of denial but I'm going to call BS and guess it is as many others stated a ND. Plus it is a one-off instance . . . there is no actual footage. (I'll change my opinion when there is more proof and documentation). I don't mean to rag on ROs but they "we" make mistakes and often miss things at matches. I can think of several both from myself and others with and without footage. There are a plethora of people in sanctioned and non-sanctioned matches with way higher round count on many other X5s and no recorded issues. If this happens frequently there would be safety notices and advisories all over the place. He claims Sig replaced it and sent him another one but there is no receipt, ticket etc.. saying what they fixed or why other than they replaced it. There is no updated video showing the new Sig they allegedly sent??? If this was a Rock, FN, Springfield, M&P or any other I would have the same issues as I have with this claim but I'll happily wait for more info and keep a skeptical mind.
I could be wrong, but I don't think there is enough force applied from ejecting spent brass to cause that much damage to the holster. You should be able to hold a thumb on the back of the slide and keep the round from ejecting and the slide from cycling. Here is a G20 10mm stopped with one thumb.
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There are no guarantees. There are only means to stack the deck in our favor.
It's easier to teach someone to do something than it is to stop them from something they're already doing in a stressful situation. Evidence is found in cars that overturn at high speeds are often found with the engines blown when the drivers couldn't get off the loud pedal...but getting off the gas to apply the brake when trying to avoid a collision is done without thinking.
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How many of these guns have discharged "by itself" when:
- In a safe?
- On a nightstand?
- In a car glovebox, or console?
etc,etc,etc....
When the gun "goes off by itself" , The single common factor appears to be human interaction that induces a discharge.
AKA "ND" by the shooter
- In a safe?
- On a nightstand?
- In a car glovebox, or console?
etc,etc,etc....
When the gun "goes off by itself" , The single common factor appears to be human interaction that induces a discharge.
AKA "ND" by the shooter
Excellent question. I have been eyeballing P365ās and this potential issue gives me something to consider.
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Personally while I love the feel of the 365, I won't own a Sig until they stop releasing their guns to the public to QA
When a car traveling at high speed loses contact with the road and goes airborne, the driver's foot is planted on the floor. The engine then revs to the point that it comes unwrapped because the driver is only thinking that he's about to die. Lifting his foot isn't part of that. Being a spectator at a NASCAR event where a car goes airborne will bear this out.
Colt submitted eight pistols to the army in April 1910 for evaluation. They were returned with a request for a slide locking manual safety from the US Cavalry, because they understood that a mounted trooper in the middle of a pitched battle could likely find a cocked pistol in one hand, and the reins connected to a terrified horse in the other...needing both hands to regain control of the horse. They wanted a means to quickly make the pistol safe for reholstering and a means to prevent the slide from being pushed out of battery, possibly not returning when the gun was redrawn.
Prior to that, the half cock was the only manual safety on the gun.
They also understood that a man could be taught by repetition to perform a specific action not related to what he was doing easier than teaching him to stop doing what he was already doing when the situation went suddenly sideways. In a panic, forgetting to "lift his foot" would be more likely than forgetting to lift his thumb to engage the safety.
Safety features on a firearm aren't put there for what will happen as much as they are for what COULD happen. The 1911's grip safety, for instance, is a drop safety...installed not because the gun would fire if dropped muzzle up...but because it COULD.
The thumb safety wasn't put there because the cavalryman WOULD forget to take his finger off the trigger, but because he MIGHT. Obviously, doing both is ideal, but sometimes the ideal flies out the window when we're not on a square range with lead flying in one direction.
Safeties aren't there to let us get stupid. They're there to eliminate the human factor as much as possible.
Every time we holster a cocked, loaded pistol, it sweeps some part of our body unless we're using a competition holster that keeps the muzzle well away from us, and even that isn't a guarantee. Those holsters not only speed up the draw, they position the muzzle, too.
Right. But under stress someone can just as easily forget to activate safety and jam it in holster, lol.
But quite the history lesson.
And again, there are no guarantees. The 1911's manual safety was put there for the reasons I outlined. We all know that the most likely time...by large margin...to have an ND is while drawing or holstering.
The points are technical...not tactical. No manual safety works if we don't make an effort to use it, but a gun designed WITHOUT a manual safety doesn't give us the opportunity or the choice.
This is why I like hammer guns and manual safeties. I even place my thumb against the hammer spur of double action revolvers when I holster them.
Cool. We all need to use what we feel comfortable with.
I like DA revolvers so striker guns seem easy and safe to me.
At least the ones that donāt say āSIGā on the side. Kidding about the Sigs.
There are three P320 safeties relevant to this question:
- A striker safety lever blocks the striker from moving forward unless it's pushed out of place by the movement of the trigger bar (analogous to the Glock striker block plunger)
- A disconnect safety disengages the trigger unless the slide is in battery
- The sear has a backup notch which catches the striker if it slips off the primary notch
In that case, he pulled the trigger...whether he knew it or not...and the firing pin return spring explanation is sheep dip.
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Trevillian
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I am fairly unfamiliar with the 320's. But did spend several hours dry firing one from time to time one evening. Yes I'm weird like that.
It seems to me, in my uneducated opinion. The fact that sig made the striker 100ish% cocked at rest on a loaded chamber to better emulate a 1911 style trigger pull means it's acts just like a 1911 trigger. There isn't much travel before it breaks a shot. This makes a superb feel but eliminates the inherent safeties built into every other striker fired pistol that uses part of a trigger press to fully cock the striker.
320's end up like a 1911 without the safety engaged when reholstered. No travel with a foreign object in the guard. Just the pressure applied to release the sear/striker.
Again I may be way off base but it seems clear that sig deciding to one up the "long" feel of every other striker actuated firearm without using some method to deter an accidental trigger press is why nd's seem to always occur during a reholster exclusively.
It seems to me, in my uneducated opinion. The fact that sig made the striker 100ish% cocked at rest on a loaded chamber to better emulate a 1911 style trigger pull means it's acts just like a 1911 trigger. There isn't much travel before it breaks a shot. This makes a superb feel but eliminates the inherent safeties built into every other striker fired pistol that uses part of a trigger press to fully cock the striker.
320's end up like a 1911 without the safety engaged when reholstered. No travel with a foreign object in the guard. Just the pressure applied to release the sear/striker.
Again I may be way off base but it seems clear that sig deciding to one up the "long" feel of every other striker actuated firearm without using some method to deter an accidental trigger press is why nd's seem to always occur during a reholster exclusively.