Another P320 firing uncommanded?

[Dan0311]

I'm a Sig fan, been an armorer since '98, but not for the 320 series. I don't know much about them other than I carried one (.45) for work for a few years while the rest of my co-workers carried the 227. The 320 seemed like a decent gun, but a bit high in the bore axis for me to love.

So far I haven't seen much convincing evidence of these things just going off. Like others have posted, I haven't heard of any going off in a locker room, a safe, a car, etc. I also haven't heard of any spontaneous discharges in the tens of thousands of Sigs already in the US military - but I could have missed it if there was.
This latest video shows no evidence, just the guy who had the incident telling his version of events without any witnesses. He makes it seem like Sig admitted something, and replaced a part that's not part of Sig's nomenclature, but doesn't produce any paperwork.
I watched another video where the guy says something like, "You all saw it, right?" and people started just agreeing with him - something tells me that in a small room, under a bright light, their story might be something like, "Well, I heard a noise and looked over and the guy's hands were up....so it mustuv' went off by itself."

I'm surely not saying that it hasn't happened/happening - but it's odd there has been no video and very little corroboration to these stories so far.

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

There are three P320 safeties relevant to this question:

- A striker safety lever blocks the striker from moving forward unless it's pushed out of place by the movement of the trigger bar (analogous to the Glock striker block plunger)

- A disconnect safety disengages the trigger unless the slide is in battery

- The sear has a backup notch which catches the striker if it slips off the primary notch

Thanks for a relevant, factual post!

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

A good, albeit long, video on the 320 safety mechanisms

 

[keepcalmandcarryon]

I'm a Sig fan, been an armorer since '98, but not for the 320 series. I don't know much about them other than I carried one (.45) for work for a few years while the rest of my co-workers carried the 227. The 320 seemed like a decent gun, but a bit high in the bore axis for me to love.

So far I haven't seen much convincing evidence of these things just going off. Like others have posted, I haven't heard of any going off in a locker room, a safe, a car, etc. I also haven't heard of any spontaneous discharges in the tens of thousands of Sigs already in the US military - but I could have missed it if there was.
This latest video shows no evidence, just the guy who had the incident telling his version of events without any witnesses. He makes it seem like Sig admitted something, and replaced a part that's not part of Sig's nomenclature, but doesn't produce any paperwork.
I watched another video where the guy says something like, "You all saw it, right?" and people started just agreeing with him - something tells me that in a small room, under a bright light, their story might be something like, "Well, I heard a noise and looked over and the guy's hands were up....so it mustuv' went off by itself."

I'm surely not saying that it hasn't happened/happening - but it's odd there has been no video and very little corroboration to these stories so far.

Google “320 unintended discharge” and there seems to be several unrelated incident/lawsuits. Is there any common thread I can not say, but there definitely is something going on.

 

[Dan0311]

Google “320 unintended discharge” and there seems to be several unrelated incident/lawsuits. Is there any common thread I can not say, but there definitely is something going on.

I'm somewhat aware of the stories, lawsuits, etc. for a few years now - just haven't seen anything conclusive. I like facts, not opinion, innuendo and speculation. Again, if tomorrow there's a decent video showing a Sig 320 going off while sitting on a bench with no one around - I'll only be mildly surprised, as there seems to be lots of stories.

 

[Average Joe]

I'm somewhat aware of the stories, lawsuits, etc. for a few years now - just haven't seen anything conclusive. I like facts, not opinion, innuendo and speculation. Again, if tomorrow there's a decent video showing a Sig 320 going off while sitting on a bench with no one around - I'll only be mildly surprised, as there seems to be lots of stories.

You summed it up really well.

 

[dmarbell]

About Those SIG P320 Lawsuits . . . - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Like many of our readers, we’ve been watching the slow drip, drip, drip of lawsuits accumulate over the past couple of years against SIG Sauer. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Some of the plaintiffs...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

When ABC’s David Scott asked Harrison if it’s a mystery “what’s going wrong with the updated version” — though Harrison had just stated the upgraded pistol isn’t dangerous — Harrison said, “I do not have an explanation for why the updated version should have complaints from trained individuals. If it’s not legal momentum, it would have to be some other mechanism of failure.”

Keep the phrase “legal momentum” in mind...


Note that Harrison’s comment about these claims possibly being the result of “legal momentum” were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. What exactly did Harrison mean by “legal momentum?” That isn’t clear, but it’s easy to make an educated guess.

He’s talking about trial lawyers recruiting clients who’ve experienced negligent discharges with P320s and suing the gun manufacturer. Clients such as law enforcement officers whose negligent discharges could result in their being disciplined or fired unless it can be proven that the gun was at fault.

 

[dmarbell]

Two comments from the article above.

--Thinking it’s okay to wrap a loaded gun in a towel and toss it into a gym bag is what we get when departments refuse to hire candidates who score too high on IQ tests.

--These cops seem pretty dang stupid if they put loaded guns in gym bags and purses with other stuff and carry them around, especially a gun that lacks manual safeties. I’m not even sure I would do that with my 92 or something else that can be both decocked and locked. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if it’s off-body. If you did the same with a Glock or an M&P without the thumb safeties, you’d get the same result.

 

[planewinch]

believe I'd be checking additional holsters before the next competition. Scary stuff.

 

[CZfool68]

First it was Glock Leg. Now we have Sig Leg.

Another striker-fired pistole' that can flat wreck your day.

Like a savvy old cop once told me.

Once is a coincidence. Twice, and it becomes evidence.

Me? I like hammer guns and manual safeties.

How do you feel about hammers and decockers? My lower body wants to know? 😁

 

[John Travis]

How do you feel about hammers and decockers?

The only pistol I've ever owned with a decocker...still have it...is a war trophy P38 that my father passed to me. Since I haven't fired more than about 50 rounds through it, I can't say much more than it seems to work as intended, but I don't trust it enough to use it with the muzzle pointed anywhere other than at the ground or downrange unless I also control the hammer. It does get in the way when hand cycling the slide, and I don't care much for that.

My lower body wants to know

Why? You decock it before you holster it. Right?

 

[CZfool68]

The only pistol I've ever owned with a decocker...still have it...is a war trophy P38 that my father passed to me. Since I haven't fired more than about 50 rounds through it, I can't say much more than it seems to work as intended, but I don't trust it enough to use it with the muzzle pointed anywhere other than at the ground or downrange unless I also control the hammer. It does get in the way when hand cycling the slide, and I don't care much for that.


Why? You decock it before you holster it. Right?

Yessir. And I’ve practiced enough that my thumb rest on the hammer as I holster the gun. Hopefully I would detect hammer movement if something unexpected happens. Although I have also decided the less holstering and re-hostering I do the less likely I am to do something stupid. But like Gump said, Sh*t happens.

 

[John Travis]

I’ve practiced enough that my thumb rest on the hammer as I holster the gun.

A good habit to get into, but...as with a double action revolver...mainly an added precaution. The long, heavy DA trigger is a pretty good deterrent to an AD/ND.

 

[KevinCRPC]

I bought an early 320. They lost me when the advertised interchangeabilty to slides and calibers cost as much as a new gun.

 

[Radar]

Looks like Milwaukee PD is done with the Sig P320 and are going to the Glock 45 model

Milwaukee Police Department to get new handguns

Milwaukee police are trading out the standard issue handgun model many officers say is defective, the city announced Monday.

www.wisn.com

 

[Dan0311]

I looked around the internet a little bit this morning, trying to find where a Sig 320 discharged with no humans around it (safe, locker, nightstand, etc.) - couldn't find anything.

I then tried to find anyone showing an actual mechanical failure of any kind (besides the old drop tests) regarding these discharges - nothing.

If anyone knows of any video of a 320 going off by itself, please post or send it to me. With Sig not really making too many P227's these days, my old job is considering the 320 in 9mm and I was asked my opinion. I T&E'd the .45 for about 2 years and it was great.

 

[Heavily.censored]

I find this a bit goofy. As others have said, there are very sparse if ANY cases of a p320 going off in a safe, nightstand or without being in contact with something or other. How many of these are on the market? In service? We have the case of one lady who was purse carrying with a serpa, a couple cops who accidentally hit civilians (liability?), and this youtuber who is trying to gain subscribers. P320 is built very similar to other striker fired pistols from what I understand... so what makes it supposedly more dangerous than others?

I think this is a piece of fud-lore, although the older I get the more interested in the p226's standless/manual safety design.

 

[Timfoilhat]

I looked around the internet a little bit this morning, trying to find where a Sig 320 discharged with no humans around it (safe, locker, nightstand, etc.) - couldn't find anything.

I then tried to find anyone showing an actual mechanical failure of any kind (besides the old drop tests) regarding these discharges - nothing.

If anyone knows of any video of a 320 going off by itself, please post or send it to me. With Sig not really making too many P227's these days, my old job is considering the 320 in 9mm and I was asked my opinion. I T&E'd the .45 for about 2 years and it was great.

I no longer have a 320. Just prefer my HKs & Berettas. No real dog in this, but if I were asked my professional opinion for this model knowing it may be chosen to go into service it would seem negligent to not mention the issue as you understand it. Call it unsubstantiated, rumor, or whatever, but present it as detail. There are lawsuits because of this, and the department may prefer to avoid the risk.

 

[halorocks22]

I found this video to be pretty informational on the topic.

 

[NKD]

Can we agree their were many Sig 320's that went off without the trigger being pressed?

Because that is definitely a thing. Even though at the time many said it was impossible because of how the gun is designed.

 

[Dan0311]

I no longer have a 320. Just prefer my HKs & Berettas. No real dog in this, but if I were asked my professional opinion for this model knowing it may be chosen to go into service it would seem negligent to not mention the issue as you understand it. Call it unsubstantiated, rumor, or whatever, but present it as detail. There are lawsuits because of this, and the department may prefer to avoid the risk.

Yes, the guy that took my place is well-aware of the issues with the gun in the media. He, like me, just haven't found anything really to sink our teeth in to.

Can we agree their were many Sig 320's that went off without the trigger being pressed?

Because that is definitely a thing. Even though at the time many said it was impossible because of how the gun is designed.

Seems like there's a thing. But other than the drop/hammer test of old, I'm not sure I've seen any proof of a gun not being handled and just going off. I remember in late 80's/early 90's there were SO many stories of Glocks "just going off", especially in police locker rooms and right after they transitioned from revolvers. These triggers "weren't depressed" either. Then I think the same thing with FN's a few years ago......

 

[GTX30R]

Being an adventurous adrenaline junky and preferring to ride the line I have several P320s and prefer my P320 AIWB- Has a modded trigger, slide, beat-to-death a highly abused rmr has 4-12k rds thru has been through 2 spring changes, a few grips , test bed for a few slides. It's my EDC and comp gun and has been to several classes over the past 4 years. Never failed or went off not intended. Hate to even think about all the awkward movements, falls and times something has banged into it and it did not go off. Weird .....

Personally, I view it as a bit of Russian roulette & daily spiritual accountability- You'll always be praying if you carry a sig never know when it will go bang .. because every time I sit up or sit down even bend over oddly I'm waiting for the magic Sig gremlin to pull the trigger and blow my nuts off clean off. I've been tackled with it, rolled, and dragged it across the mud, its been fallen on it at least twice, and rolled down the mountain chasing the dogs still no boom boom. So either mine is defective, the Sig gremlins don't like me or roulette so far is in my favor.

P320s are garbage I'll save you and buy them for $0.10 on the dollar cause I'm a good decent human 🤣

If I blow my nuts off and file a lawsuit I'll admit I was in denial and didn't listen to all those who provided ample evidence and just kept thinking like every victim it couldn't happen to me.

 

[NKD]

Yes, the guy that took my place is well-aware of the issues with the gun in the media. He, like me, just haven't found anything really to sink our teeth in to.



Seems like there's a thing. But other than the drop/hammer test of old, I'm not sure I've seen any proof of a gun not being handled and just going off. I remember in late 80's/early 90's there were SO many stories of Glocks "just going off", especially in police locker rooms and right after they transitioned from revolvers. These triggers "weren't depressed" either. Then I think the same thing with FN's a few years ago......

Agree. But after we’ve seen many posts explaining why they can’t go off without a trigger pull, then seeing MANY of them go off without a trigger pull…..
Well, maybe I’m the only one that thinks that’s important. If it can go off without pulling the trigger, that means….wait for it…it can go off without pulling the trigger. Period full stop.

I’m probably just dumb.

 

[Sharps40]

ND. Holster is the evidence. He pulled the trigger before the muzzle cleared the bottom of the holster.

If it was Army. It be Human Factors, overconfidence/inattention. Failure to follow approved procedures.

If Marines. Vertical Butt Stroke.

If Air Force. Nervous giggles and a deployment to a war zone with a Marriott.

 

[Dan0311]

Agree. But after we’ve seen many posts explaining why they can’t go off without a trigger pull, then seeing MANY of them go off without a trigger pull…..
Well, maybe I’m the only one that thinks that’s important. If it can go off without pulling the trigger, that means….wait for it…it can go off without pulling the trigger. Period full stop.

I’m probably just dumb.

You've seen MANY of them go off without a trigger pull? Well, THAT'S the kind of info I've been looking for. I ran a range, had departments with 320's use my range for weeks at a time - never heard of any of these guns going off in a holster or locker, car, etc.

If you've seen it, then it's absolutely important. I'm actually surprised you didn't post about your experiences witnesses all those events - or did I miss it?

If you only heard about it, then...not-so-much.

 

[NKD]

You've seen MANY of them go off without a trigger pull? Well, THAT'S the kind of info I've been looking for. I ran a range, had departments with 320's use my range for weeks at a time - never heard of any of these guns going off in a holster or locker, car, etc.

If you've seen it, then it's absolutely important. I'm actually surprised you didn't post about your experiences witnesses all those events - or did I miss it?

If you only heard about it, then...not-so-much.

Are you for real? You think these are all fake? Found these in under a minute, less time than it took you to compose your snarky masterpiece. You been living under a rock?

 

[GTX30R]

Not trying to change your mind but all of those videos are using pre-recall P320s. These are also all drop and hammer tests not just sitting there going off by themselves. I'd advise if this is a standard routine Sig is likely not the best option.

 

[Dan0311]

Are you for real? You think these are all fake? Found these in under a minute, less time than it took you to compose your snarky masterpiece. You been living under a rock?

Sorry Sir, but the snark started with, "Well, maybe I’m the only one that thinks that’s important. If it can go off without pulling the trigger, that means….wait for it…it can go off without pulling the trigger. Period full stop.

I’m probably just dumb."


Am I for real? Yes, I'll repeat: I'd like to see a video where a Sig 320 went off BY ITSELF with no human involvement - like in a holster, like others have claimed, or a locker, etc. That's all.

So when you posted that you've 'seen many go off without a trigger pull'.....you were talking about on YouTube?

The videos you posted all were from FIVE years ago. And if you read my posts, I never disputed that 5 years ago there were some 320's hit with hammers that went off, others didn't. I've known about that for.....5 years. Most of the claims I've seen after that have been, "the gun just went off" (no hammer strikes involved). Again, all I'm asking for is proof that these (post voluntary recall) guns are going off without human involvement - like some are claiming w/o proof. BTW, I competition shooter from my old range emailed me that the guy in a recent video about the gun just going off is known to Franken-modify his competition guns with a dremel and files.

If tomorrow Sig posts a general recall on 320's because of the possibility of uninitiated discharge - I'd only be somewhat surprised. I DO think there may be an issue with these guns, but not sure yet until I see something more than the same ole' 5-year old hammer tests.

 

[BadWagon]

Being an adventurous adrenaline junky and preferring to ride the line I have several P320s and prefer my P320 AIWB- Has a modded trigger, slide, beat-to-death a highly abused rmr has 4-12k rds thru has been through 2 spring changes, a few grips , test bed for a few slides. It's my EDC and comp gun and has been to several classes over the past 4 years. Never failed or went off not intended. Hate to even think about all the awkward movements, falls and times something has banged into it and it did not go off. Weird .....

Personally, I view it as a bit of Russian roulette & daily spiritual accountability- You'll always be praying if you carry a sig never know when it will go bang .. because every time I sit up or sit down even bend over oddly I'm waiting for the magic Sig gremlin to pull the trigger and blow my nuts off clean off. I've been tackled with it, rolled, and dragged it across the mud, its been fallen on it at least twice, and rolled down the mountain chasing the dogs still no boom boom. So either mine is defective, the Sig gremlins don't like me or roulette so far is in my favor.

P320s are garbage I'll save you and buy them for $0.10 on the dollar cause I'm a good decent human 🤣

If I blow my nuts off and file a lawsuit I'll admit I was in denial and didn't listen to all those who provided ample evidence and just kept thinking like every victim it couldn't happen to me.

I have also fallen, wrestled, be thrown down, fallen skateboarding, etc and never had my p320 fire without a trigger pull. I wear my p320 80% of the time and I work from home. I've worn it doing construction work, and in all sorts of situations where I'm twisting, squatting and moving in odd ways.

Not trying to change your mind but all of those videos are using post-recall P320s. These are also all drop and hammer tests not just sitting there going off by themselves. I'd advise if this is a standard routine Sig is likely not the best option.

These are NOT post-recall p320s. The easiest way to tell is the large thick trigger. Some of the videos even have an "update" in the description which alerts viewers of the recall.

I haven't seen or been able to recreate the drop/hammer issue with any of my p320s, which are all post-recall pistols.

pre-recall

post-recall

 

[Amanda4461]

Being an adventurous adrenaline junky and preferring to ride the line I have several P320s and prefer my P320 AIWB- Has a modded trigger, slide, beat-to-death a highly abused rmr has 4-12k rds thru has been through 2 spring changes, a few grips , test bed for a few slides. It's my EDC and comp gun and has been to several classes over the past 4 years. Never failed or went off not intended. Hate to even think about all the awkward movements, falls and times something has banged into it and it did not go off. Weird .....

Personally, I view it as a bit of Russian roulette & daily spiritual accountability- You'll always be praying if you carry a sig never know when it will go bang .. because every time I sit up or sit down even bend over oddly I'm waiting for the magic Sig gremlin to pull the trigger and blow my nuts off clean off. I've been tackled with it, rolled, and dragged it across the mud, its been fallen on it at least twice, and rolled down the mountain chasing the dogs still no boom boom. So either mine is defective, the Sig gremlins don't like me or roulette so far is in my favor.

P320s are garbage I'll save you and buy them for $0.10 on the dollar cause I'm a good decent human 🤣

If I blow my nuts off and file a lawsuit I'll admit I was in denial and didn't listen to all those who provided ample evidence and just kept thinking like every victim it couldn't happen to me.

I’ll raise you a quarter. Maybe fifty cents if it is a Compact RX model.🤑

 

[GTX30R]

These are NOT post-recall p320s. The easiest way to tell is the large thick trigger. Some of the videos even have an "update" in the description which alerts viewers of the recall.

I haven't seen or been able to recreate the drop/hammer issue with any of my p320s, which are all post-recall pistols.

Sorry meant pre and not post not enough coffee yet....

 

[NKD]

Sorry Sir, but the snark started with, "Well, maybe I’m the only one that thinks that’s important. If it can go off without pulling the trigger, that means….wait for it…it can go off without pulling the trigger. Period full stop.

I’m probably just dumb."

Fair enough, re-reading it, I think you're right: it does sound snarky. My apologies.

So when you posted that you've 'seen many go off without a trigger pull'.....you were talking about on YouTube?

The videos you posted all were from FIVE years ago. And if you read my posts, I never disputed that 5 years ago there were some 320's hit with hammers that went off, others didn't. I've known about that for.....5 years. Most of the claims I've seen after that have been, "the gun just went off" (no hammer strikes involved). Again, all I'm asking for is proof that these (post voluntary recall) guns are going off without human involvement - like some are claiming w/o proof. BTW, I competition shooter from my old range emailed me that the guy in a recent video about the gun just going off is known to Franken-modify his competition guns with a dremel and files.

I feel a small sample of the many youtube video's should really be enough to show proof of something that was certainly happening. You yourself said so.
And I feel confident they were not franken-modified with a dremel.

These guns did exactly what I said they did: went off without a trigger press. But I consider a falling gun going off as dangerous, as a squirrel or a dog or child or any number of things can knock a gun off a table or shelf, without any human involvement. I saw a gun knocked off a table by a random falling branch once. Or, it can be stricken while in the holster, or locker, or wherever, by another human or falling or moving object.
I have seen guns come out of holsters cartwheeling up range many times. As has anybody who shoots and RO's lots of matches.

I have never seen a gun "go off by itself". I feel confident a 320 sitting on a table isn't going to shoot me, lol. But I am not going to stick one up to my balls and hit it with an object on the back of the slide.

Have these guns been fixed by a recall? Possibly. Apparently some have more faith than I do.

The point to my posts is this:
When this started being a thing: the very same explanations of the interior safeties on the gun not allowing the gun to fire were explained.
It started with drop test failures. Then the hammer test failures. The gun fired in both cases and we see lots of actual proof of it.

If tomorrow Sig posts a general recall on 320's because of the possibility of uninitiated discharge - I'd only be somewhat surprised. I DO think there may be an issue with these guns, but not sure yet until I see something more than the same ole' 5-year old hammer tests.

I'd be surprised, too, because the first go around Sig was resistant to a recall. I also agree there could be a problem with them and I'm unconvinced a lighter trigger solves the problem.

I like the 320 and wouldn't mind owning an X5. But personally I wouldn't carry one CCW appendix and prefer a Glock. Because I have never seen one fail like I have seen these. Of course, anybody else is free to do what they want.

 

[NKD]

I found this video to be pretty informational on the topic.

That is indeed a video everyone who carries these should watch.

 

[dmarbell]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1998/11/18/armed-and-unready/419a50bf-23b0-4175-93ee-33211044c8df/

Article from 1998 that is entertaining and informative. As in this jewel:

Officer Adam K. Schutz was helping to test and clean the first shipment of guns when he shot himself in the fingers.

"It bit me," said Schutz, who was left with permanent damage to a finger on his left hand. "I was moving my hand to lower the slide and it jumped forward. I had assumed the gun was unloaded."

 

[GTX30R]

I think information, experience, and context go a long way. It would be unreasonable to ignore known or possible issues. Sig was definitely at fault and should have handled the first recall better. While possible there are still issues I have a huge problem looking at the lack of data and little info that gets broadcast with such little context and very little support. I'd like to see more reasonable and reliable data. If someone was making claims with any other manufacturer I would have the same problem.

With so many Mil/LE and private groups fielding Sigs where are all the reports of them going off?? Yes, there are a few agencies that are switching and some have had issues (missing context) but I need more info than just well because other people have lawsuits and they feel unsafe so the department is changing. Yes, there are some "reasonable" concerns and considerations for certain situations. It is absolutely worth thinking about but within reason.

There are many firearms that have issues in some context or another. Especially when you start throwing in human error, training, experience, or negligence. Not even getting into routine maintenance, modifications, and custom work. Nothing is full proof. I have seen an array of things I never thought or expected would happen over the years that are not in reports or fixed by the manufacturers. Sometimes it just is so I'm certainly not discounting the idea it doesn't happen at all.

I think it's really really hard looking at the OPs video and making any real decision based on the evidence provided and the lack of supporting evidence to place the blame on Sig for this one. If he said it was a Glock, CZ, STI whatever I would have the same issues.

Until there is more documented information put out in agency S.O.Ps, policies or Sig directly addressing these "random spontaneous" firings in some manner I find many of these claims highly suspect and most easily ignored to be Sig's direct fault. Certainly open to changing my mind with more reasonable evidence or should I instantly become a disabled eunuch.

 

[BadWagon]

I found this video to be pretty informational on the topic.

Posted by the one guy who's had a p320 try to shoot him in the nuts... The question is, do you still carry a p320 AIWB?

 

[dmarbell]

Posted by the one guy who's had a p320 try to shoot him in the nuts... The question is, do you still carry a p320 AIWB?

I don't carry AIWB as my "physique" or lack thereof doesn't seem to allow it. I don't know if I would ever feel comfortable carrying any gun without a manual safety AIWB. There are things down there that I love and appreciate, the least of which are not my femoral arteries.

 

[halorocks22]

Posted by the one guy who's had a p320 try to shoot him in the nuts... The question is, do you still carry a p320 AIWB?

Nope. Switched to hammer-fired. And I did personally get shot with a P320 for those who don't know (I'm okay). Kydex holster and post-upgrade Sig. I initially thought that it was my fault (and it still could be) but thinking about the circumstances makes me want to think nothing I did could've let something in the trigger guard and made it go off.

I was speaking to an attorney in PA (Saltz Mongeluzzi & Bendesky P.C.) before they decided to drop my case since I was "fine" and the recovery likely wouldn't have covered the fees, but they were apparently working with two dozen other clients that also got shot by the P320. I asked and one client in the past successfully made a recovery from Sig for an undisclosed amount.

 

[Dan0311]

Fair enough, re-reading it, I think you're right: it does sound snarky. My apologies.



I feel a small sample of the many youtube video's should really be enough to show proof of something that was certainly happening. You yourself said so.
And I feel confident they were not franken-modified with a dremel.

These guns did exactly what I said they did: went off without a trigger press. But I consider a falling gun going off as dangerous, as a squirrel or a dog or child or any number of things can knock a gun off a table or shelf, without any human involvement. I saw a gun knocked off a table by a random falling branch once. Or, it can be stricken while in the holster, or locker, or wherever, by another human or falling or moving object.
I have seen guns come out of holsters cartwheeling up range many times. As has anybody who shoots and RO's lots of matches.

I have never seen a gun "go off by itself". I feel confident a 320 sitting on a table isn't going to shoot me, lol. But I am not going to stick one up to my balls and hit it with an object on the back of the slide.

Have these guns been fixed by a recall? Possibly. Apparently some have more faith than I do.

The point to my posts is this:
When this started being a thing: the very same explanations of the interior safeties on the gun not allowing the gun to fire were explained.
It started with drop test failures. Then the hammer test failures. The gun fired in both cases and we see lots of actual proof of it.



I'd be surprised, too, because the first go around Sig was resistant to a recall. I also agree there could be a problem with them and I'm unconvinced a lighter trigger solves the problem.

I like the 320 and wouldn't mind owning an X5. But personally I wouldn't carry one CCW appendix and prefer a Glock. Because I have never seen one fail like I have seen these. Of course, anybody else is free to do what they want.

Roger that - understand all.

There's been SO much 'talk' about things that happened - I would just like a little more proof. Some feel there's enough proof already, and I respect that. If the 320 is a dog, it's a dog, but I have no dog in the fight - I hung-up my gun belt (w/320 in it) a while ago and I like many other of my handguns better.

I think one thing's for sure; With the thousands of 320/M17/M18's in the U.S. Military, and tens of thousands on the way, and more and more police departments going to them - there will be more incidents and inevitably they will be caught on camera. Then there will almost no doubt.

 

[georgel]

It was interesting to watch the breakdown video above. I kept thinking about the concept of tolerance stacking. That's when every individual component is within it's own tolerance specification, but if two or more components are a opposite ends of their spec, the combined total is out of tolerance. Suppose two parts have a +/- 5% tolerance either one can be out +/- 5% and work correctly. But, if one part is out +5% and the other is out -5% then the total error is 10%.

I've noticed, when working on Glock based components that there is an almost excessive amount of "engagement" of parts. This is to allow all the safety mechanisms to work while allowing for the variations in mass production. But, these excesses also result in the complaints of long trigger take up, mushy triggers, etc. Fine tuning a Glock is about individually reducing these excesses safely.

Perhaps that's what's going on with the Sig's. Everything is in spec and operates fine, especially in a controlled environment, but once fielded and subject to the irregularities of environment,use and stress vectors, some of the guns are failing due to combinations of tolerance stacking.That combined with the fully tensioned firing pin spring.

Many "catastrophes" are perfect storms of multiple factors, rather than a single cause.