I'm considering the purchase of another braced pistol, but before I do, I wanted to check the status of the proposed rule change. I know the comment period has lapsed, but is this thing going through?
ATF Brace grab -- current status?
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I was wondering the same thing....
matttahoe53
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Maybe someone should reach out and ask [emoji849]
OP
I didn't post until I had searched the web for it, and I couldn't find anything new in at least three months. There are two M&P 15-22 pistols in the classifieds, and Fuquay Gun & Gold has them on sale, so they are calling my name. I just don't want to soon be told I have to take the brace off or pay the NFA tax.
matttahoe53
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This was a joke, at lot of this issue started because people kept asking the atf if it was ok to shoulder a brace.
I think regardless, if you've got some pistols on the mind, it might be a good time to prioritize those over other purchases. That said, AFAIK nothing has been said, and no news is good news.
fishgutzy
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So, my M&P 15 Sport would be declared an illegal SBR if I put a brace on it? Or is the ATF saying the brace is an SBR all by itslef just as they declared a stand alone trigger or piece of plastic to be illegal machine guns without any other parts needing to be present?
In a world where some some anti state declare that a single spent brass is felony posession of unlicensed ammunition with the same prison time as 1 million rounds of live ammo, it would not be surprising if that was the case with the ATF.
In a world where some some anti state declare that a single spent brass is felony posession of unlicensed ammunition with the same prison time as 1 million rounds of live ammo, it would not be surprising if that was the case with the ATF.
The Last Outlaw
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Didn't the guy who shot up the grocery store in Colorado last year use a braced AR?
And that was around the time this discussion started wasn't it? The media will dredge up something new and make a big deal out of it when its time to seal the deal.
The media lost what little integrity they had in the 2020 election, along with no trust in the .gov after "lol we have no clue" after the Las Vegas shooting that spawned le evil bump stock.
Timfoilhat
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I think they're biding their time. The Supreme Court is considering cases that speak to administrative rules making power and they might not want to stick their head up to irritate the 5 on the right just yet.
Not enough info. Is it currently configured as a rifle? If so, then nothing you do to the stock, remove it, replace it, stipple it, can make it an SBR.
CL2ALVR
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Yes, that is an accurate assessment. Though, that is the only incident I know of which involved a braced pistol and was reported on.
As far as I know, the brace grab died on the vine after Chipman's nomination was pulled...
CL2ALVR
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That is a logical assumption, however, I believe the ATF has other plans, but is waiting to see how some of the other 2A cases are going to go @ SCOTUS first.
9outof10mms
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Likely stupid question…
Does anyone think there’d be “grandfathering” or braces bought before any sort of ban? I mean, they did come right out and explicitly allow shouldering, didn’t they?
Does anyone think there’d be “grandfathering” or braces bought before any sort of ban? I mean, they did come right out and explicitly allow shouldering, didn’t they?
How about we get Desantis to run instead of Donald the bump stock king Trump?
How do you grandfather something that isn't serialized and, thus, has no manufacturer record kept of its date of manufacture?
The above question is core to why we likely won't see grandfathering; consistent enforcement to grandfather those made before X date ... while grabbing those made after X date ... is an issue.
fishgutzy
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Of course that is how logic would work. But the ATF just makes stuff up as it goes along. Ha!
I can only imagine grandfathering working if they dumped it on the owners, if you want to keep it you have to serialize it and file some piece of paper, maybe give 120 days to get it done.
They could also figure out a way to do something to stop production of them, like require that new ones be serialized and make them an NFA item with a $200 tax. Not necessarily legal, but they obviously don‘t worry about such trivial matters.
Most likely they‘ll do either nothing or put their arbitrary mess into the regs and enforce it selectively. Your friends and range officers will let them know about infractions, won’t even need to pay them.
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My opinion is that they are holding off issuing their ruling on this and "ghost guns" until either after the mid-terms or when they need something to distract the right from something else. Or both.
DrScaryGuy
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Yes.
Nonsense. The ATF will attack you however they want.
I'm pretty sure that they can call it an NFA item if you just take the stock off of a rifle and leave it like that. I've seen some charges printed up in news stories that way before. no idea if the charges stuck or not, but we all know their way is to overcharge and get you to admit a lesser felony.
For all we know, the ATF could take the whole buffer tube off, crimp out the gas tube, and call it a single shot short barreled rifle or "weapon made from a rifle". I sure wouldn't put it past them.
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I’m a little salty on the issue, but I’m pretty much in the “F” them mindset, I have a few braced pistols and regardless of their ruling, I’ll keep on shooting mine, “if” it ever becomes an issue for us, I’ll deal with it at that time, but for now, I am 200% tired of their horse pucky and am tired of worrying about what “the crown” says I may or may not possess.
Maybe change your user name to DrScaredGuy?🤣
I’m gonna screw this up, @BigWaylon would you pls correct me?
If it is currently a rifle, you might be able to make it a “firearm” under the GCA by shortening or removing the stock, but unless you shorten the barrel it will never be an SBR. Think about it, is every barreled action an NFA item, of course not, and every time you take apart a rifle does it become an nfa item for a while, again of course not.
About what you read in the news. Maybe the news got it wrong, or you misunderstood it, or you’ve forgotten something, or some combination. Sounds like maybe it’s based on a constructive intent story where someone has a pistol, has all the parts to make it an SBR, and has no other use for those parts. It’s been a boogeyman in the gun community for years, but I don’t recall news of a single prosecution of it.
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California woman charged with illegal SBR over stock-less 10/22 :: Guns.com
Police in Fresno arrested an area woman Monday after they found her in possession of a .22LR rifle that came up a little short on their tape measure.
www.guns.com
CA police and reporter, what could go wrong?California woman charged with illegal SBR over stock-less 10/22 :: Guns.com
Police in Fresno arrested an area woman Monday after they found her in possession of a .22LR rifle that came up a little short on their tape measure.
The way I read the article, it claims that removing the stock makes it an NFA item if it is under 26”. I don’t believe this, but I could be wrong. Even so, I think it would be an aow and not an sbr.
edit: to be clear, you said it would be an nfa item, it’s the article title that called it an sbr.
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I may be eating crow on this. See last paragraph
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director Washington, DC 20226
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)
A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.
ATF Rul. 2011-4
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configurationbyremovalofthosecomponents. Specifically,ATFhasbeenaskedto determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).
Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.
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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.
The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).
Unassembled Parts Kits
In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.
However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a
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complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a
long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13. Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits
The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of “firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.
Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including – (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and
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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.
Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: July 25, 2011
Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director
DrScaryGuy
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If they don't already have a rule to get you, they'll make one up.
mig1nc
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I think this is why they are making so much progress on e-File. They want to take away the complaint that it takes to long and all the lazy people will just give up and pay to register their guns.
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I would’ve guessed unregistered AOW once it broke below the 26” mark, but I can see SBR. I don’t like the use of the word “firearm” instead. That gets into the topic that confuses people on the difference of “Other Firearm” (on a 4473) and “Any Other Weapon” (a category of the NFA).
You’re correct, you cannot have an SBR under the NFA without a buttstock. It would be an AOW. It’s probably the same under CA law—even though it sounds/looks like they were charging her for possessing a barreled action.
Remember, whenever you read an article like this, there’s context missing. There was a reason they went out to a campground and hooked the lady up on narcotics and paraphernalia charges… the gun was most likely an incidental charge thrown in because it’s easier to arraign and drop than it is to add charges.
The open question of whether a loaded barreled action (that’s capable of being held and fired in defense of “ye olde campground crackwagon”) merits a Hail Mary charge like that—at all—is going to come down to a mix of local politics and whatever the person was also doing to merit arrest.
The average dude just living his life (without cooking/using dope in public areas like a moron) will not attract attention like that.
ETA: Bold part is technically incorrect. If the firearm is newly manufactured from a receiver or pistol, then it is an AOW. If you take a fully-assembled rifle (16+" barrel and 26+" OAL) and modify it in any way to shorten the OAL below 26", even if the barrel remains above 16", then you have "made" an SBR from a "weapon made from a rifle."
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The Last Outlaw
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To be fair, the article said "some kind of narcotic" and that the actual drug charge she caught was just misdemeanor paraphernalia possession.
So, if the article is correct, they found a narcotic on her, didn't charge her for it, and hit her with paraphernalia instead? That sounds funny to me.
So, if the article is correct, they found a narcotic on her, didn't charge her for it, and hit her with paraphernalia instead? That sounds funny to me.
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You absolutely can have an SBR without a buttstock. This is due to the “weapon made from a rifle” definition of SBR.
That’s the dumb part. I can go into my safe right now, make one change, and show you two weapons that look almost identical…yet one will be an SBR and one will be an AR pistol.
You're right... has nothing to do with brace but whether the starting firearm was ever fully constructed into a functional rifle in the first place... the whole point of the Thompson Center case. I keep forgetting how dumb our laws are.
Okay, simple question then. If I take a rifle and shorten or remove the buttstock such that the OAL is now less than 26” have I made:
1. an SBR (with a curiously long barrel)
2. An AOW
3. Something else or it depends on other factors.