But, But, Masks!??...

[NC Rob]

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/masks

Much heralded COVID-19 model-student South Korea saw new infections with the virus rise again to more than 1,000 cases per day, dramatically higher than during the first wave in February and March.

Here's CNN: "In Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, South Korea, Japan and other Asian nations, mask wearing is uncontroversial, near universal, and has been proven effective..."

Here's Forbes: "What South Korea teaches us is that ... mass production and distribution of face masks and the promotion of their use, are winning strategies in this battle."

Here's NYTimes: "The country showed that it is possible to contain the coronavirus without shutting down the economy... Television broadcasts, subway station announcements and smartphone alerts provide endless reminders to wear face masks..."

The head of the World Health Organization, Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, has hailed South Korea as demonstrating that containing the virus, while difficult, “can be done.” He urged countries to “apply the lessons learned in Korea and elsewhere.”


As Statista's Willem Roper notes, the country has been praised extensively for reducing cases of COVID-19, but a continuously climbing case count shows how the threat of new outbreaks looms even after flattening the curve (twice before).

After a second outbreak in August and September was squashed, South Korea had already tightened restrictions again.

The highest number of daily new cases in the initial wave was recorded at 813 on Feb 29.



You will find more infographics at Statista

Still, these cases being recorded now are only a sliver of those detected daily in the U.S. and Europe. There, daily new case counts of COVID-19 are still in the tens of thousands... so keep wearing your masks!!!

🔥 🔥 🔥!!!!

This is insane! Every country that introduced mandatory masks had their case numbers explode after!! Mask don’t work!

Retweet!!!! pic.twitter.com/3VssX0WK4V
— The Epigenetic Whisperer 👉The Bodhisattva Bastard (@epigwhisp) December 16, 2020

 

[two fingers]

I wish there were even a slight chance that any kind of logic and/or reason could be restored here in the US (....regarding COVID and a myriad other issues).

Alas, I fear it is too late. This is an argument we can't win. Masks aren't about COVID. They are just another order to "Get back in line!"

So, while you're arguing the merits of wearing vs not wearing a mask, they aren't even having the argument with you anymore. They don't argue merits. They just say you're a backwards hick who wants to kill grandma..... and "Get back in line!"

 

[ppirate]

Hah............told ya
Still, we will be wearing one, when they close the box or light your fire.

 

[Hadoken]

I will fight for anyone’s right to freedom and deciding what they think is best for their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

But is this post saying that 1,000 daily cases in a country of 51,000,000 is proof masks DON’T work?
Compared to 230,000 daily cases in a population of 330,000,000 here?
I’m not saying Korea is proof they do work, but I wouldn’t use these numbers as the basis for my argument against masks.

 

[Tailhunter]

Whether the asians are born with a mask and are buried in a mask makes no difference.

The mask that the typical American wears doesn’t work to stop the chinese virus.

 

[Fess]

Did any of you guys actually look the numbers? Essentially, the data you quoted proves that masks DO work and South Korea is much safer than the US. I have listed sources, so you can check the math.

South Korea still has a much lower infection rate than the US. About 1/30 the US rate (see analysis below). North Carolina alone (population 10.5 million) has averaged well over 5,000 cases per day for the past three weeks and yesterday, over 8,000 new cases (Covidtracking.com)

The math:
S. Korea has roughly 52 million people (world bank numbers). The US, roughly 328 million (US Census Bureau)
1,100 covid cases per day in S. Korea, according to the chart above.
This last week averaged over 220,000 cases per day in the US. (240,156 on Thursday) (Covidtracking.com)
The US has 6 times the population of S. Korea and 200+ times the Covid cases. (Actual numbers. S. Korea 1 case per 47,900 people. US, 1 case per 1,400 people)
South Korea deaths from Covid: 659 (Johns Hopkins U)
North Carolina Deaths from Covid 6,184 (Johns Hopkins)

Masks DO work. My Brother is a Nurse Practitioner in NC and has been working with covid patients in Nursing Homes and Assisted Living facilities or months. He wears either a N95 mask or the KN95 masks that can be bought on Amazon. His facilities can't afford the fancy powered air filtering setups. So far, thank God, he has stayed healthy.

 

[Goofyfoot2001]

I will fight for anyone’s right to freedom and deciding what they think is best for their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

But is this post saying that 1,000 daily cases in a country of 51,000,000 is proof masks DON’T work?
Compared to 230,000 daily cases in a population of 330,000,000 here?
I’m not saying Korea is proof they do work, but I wouldn’t use these numbers as the basis for my argument against masks.

Wear your mask. If you are fat or old then it's a good idea. I'm 57, in decent shape and I don't need a mask.

 

[AR10ShooterinNC]

But, the standard behind the ear mask that just about everybody is wearing, doesn't work. The mask needs to seal to face to provide protection.

 

[Goofyfoot2001]

How does the CDC get away with spreading fear and lies that they themselves contradict.

 

[noway2]

The US has 6 times the population of S. Korea and 200+ times the Covid cases. (Actual numbers. S. Korea 1 case per 47,900 people. US, 1 case per 1,400 people)
South Korea deaths from Covid: 659 (Johns Hopkins U)
North Carolina Deaths from Covid 6,184 (Johns Hopkins)

Masks DO work.

You're assuming that masks are the one variable that accounts for the difference. It could be any number of things.

 

[Fess]

But, the standard behind the ear mask that just about everybody is wearing, doesn't work. The mask needs to seal to face to provide protection.

That is simply not true. Before I start, remember that EPA's main air quality lab is in RTP, so a lot of people in NC have some expertise in particles, aerosols and filtration. I have some professional experience in the field, but my knowledge is modest compared to a lot of others.

The KN95 behind the ear masks that you can buy on Amazon meet virtually the same standard as N95, behind-the-head masks (95% of 0.3 micron capture) The main difference is that most KN95's are physically smaller and allowed to have a slightly higher inhalation and exhalation pressure drop. A fit-test with irritant smoke will demonstrate this. This is a common procedure.

Other masks are less efficient, but still can have a significant effect against contracting a virus like coronavirus. The virus travels in a droplet of moisture rather than as an individual particle (a viron). That is good because virons are incredibly small. It takes a fairly high number of virons to be enough to infect someone, so large droplets or aerosols are the most dangerous. These are not as difficult to capture or block. Larger, and consequently more dangerous, droplets are heavy and to not travel as far as smaller ones. That is why putting a few feet between people is useful.

A number of tests have recently been performed to determine the effectiveness of different type of masks in stopping both the inhalation and the escape of the droplets that come from humans. It is true that a couple of types, like polyester neck gaiters, can be worse than not having a mask at all, since they tend to break big droplets up into slightly smaller ones that can travel farther. Most other types of masks do significantly better. Even a mask that does not have a great seal is better than nothing because 1) much of the air still goes through the filter media and 2) the large droplets that are the most dangerous don't turn sharp angles very well and tend to impact on a surface (skin or section of mask material). I can go into details if you want, but that is precisely how we determined the size of particles and aerosols when doing smoke-stack testing and other air quality analysis. You can look up "cascade impactors" if you want to know more.

You do have a point, though, that it is better to have a mask that seals well. Even the fabric masks that I made from an old flannel shirt fit me well because I sewed in pieces of wire across the bridge of the nose to make it conform better. Many surgical masks have this, but pipe cleaners, heavy twist ties, or the wire and plastic things used to reseal bags of coffee can be used.

If you would like, I will chase down the information about the recent testing on different mask types. It may take a while (it being Christmas and all), but I will be happy to do it for you if you like. This is a genuine offer. I am not trying to be a jerk.

 

[Fess]

How does the CDC get away with spreading fear and lies that they themselves contradict.

It appears that whoever wrote the article you read either misunderstood or is deliberately misleading you. I find it amazing how many people there are out there who deliberately do this. Here is what the CDC means by "close contact". It includes "respiratory droplets". These are bigger and much more dangerous than the particles they refer to as causing "airborne transmission". They also fall out of the air quickly, so they tend not to travel very far. Hence being from "close contact."
Masks are good at stopping these.

In this instance, "airborne transmission" meant small particles that stay in the air a long time and can travel a long distance. It is true that they are thought to cause fewer infections.
Here is a link, so you can see you were misled: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html

Here is part of it:

COVID-19 spreads very easily from person to person​

How easily a virus spreads from person to person can vary. The virus that causes COVID-19 appears to spread more efficiently than influenza but not as efficiently as measles, which is among the most contagious viruses known to affect people.

COVID-19 most commonly spreads during close contact​

• People who are physically near (within 6 feet) a person with COVID-19 or have direct contact with that person are at greatest risk of infection.
• When people with COVID-19 cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe they produce respiratory droplets. These droplets can range in size from larger droplets (some of which are visible) to smaller droplets. Small droplets can also form particles when they dry very quickly in the airstream.
• Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19.
• Respiratory droplets cause infection when they are inhaled or deposited on mucous membranes, such as those that line the inside of the nose and mouth.
• As the respiratory droplets travel further from the person with COVID-19, the concentration of these droplets decreases. Larger droplets fall out of the air due to gravity. Smaller droplets and particles spread apart in the air.
• With passing time, the amount of infectious virus in respiratory droplets also decreases.

COVID-19 can sometimes be spread by airborne transmission​

• Some infections can be spread by exposure to virus in small droplets and particles that can linger in the air for minutes to hours. These viruses may be able to infect people who are further than 6 feet away from the person who is infected or after that person has left the space.
• This kind of spread is referred to as airborne transmission and is an important way that infections like tuberculosis, measles, and chicken pox are spread.
• There is evidence that under certain conditions, people with COVID-19 seem to have infected others who were more than 6 feet away. These transmissions occurred within enclosed spaces that had inadequate ventilation. Sometimes the infected person was breathing heavily, for example while singing or exercising.
  • Under these circumstances, scientists believe that the amount of infectious smaller droplet and particles produced by the people with COVID-19 became concentrated enough to spread the virus to other people. The people who were infected were in the same space during the same time or shortly after the person with COVID-19 had left.
• Available data indicate that it is much more common for the virus that causes COVID-19 to spread through close contact with a person who has COVID-19 than through airborne transmission. [1]

COVID-19 spreads less commonly through contact with contaminated surfaces​

• Respiratory droplets can also land on surfaces and objects. It is possible that a person could get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes.
• Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be a common way that COVID-19 spreads

 

[Goofyfoot2001]

It appears that whoever wrote the article you read either misunderstood or is deliberately misleading you. I find it amazing how many people there are out there who deliberately do this. Here is what the CDC means by "close contact". It includes "respiratory droplets". These are bigger and much more dangerous than the particles they refer to as causing "airborne transmission". They also fall out of the air quickly, so they tend not to travel very far. Hence being from "close contact."
Masks are good at stopping these.

In this instance, "airborne transmission" meant small particles that stay in the air a long time and can travel a long distance. It is true that they are thought to cause fewer infections.
Here is a link, so you can see you were misled: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html

Here is part of it:

COVID-19 spreads very easily from person to person​

How easily a virus spreads from person to person can vary. The virus that causes COVID-19 appears to spread more efficiently than influenza but not as efficiently as measles, which is among the most contagious viruses known to affect people.

COVID-19 most commonly spreads during close contact​

• People who are physically near (within 6 feet) a person with COVID-19 or have direct contact with that person are at greatest risk of infection.
• When people with COVID-19 cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe they produce respiratory droplets. These droplets can range in size from larger droplets (some of which are visible) to smaller droplets. Small droplets can also form particles when they dry very quickly in the airstream.
• Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19.
• Respiratory droplets cause infection when they are inhaled or deposited on mucous membranes, such as those that line the inside of the nose and mouth.
• As the respiratory droplets travel further from the person with COVID-19, the concentration of these droplets decreases. Larger droplets fall out of the air due to gravity. Smaller droplets and particles spread apart in the air.
• With passing time, the amount of infectious virus in respiratory droplets also decreases.

COVID-19 can sometimes be spread by airborne transmission​

• Some infections can be spread by exposure to virus in small droplets and particles that can linger in the air for minutes to hours. These viruses may be able to infect people who are further than 6 feet away from the person who is infected or after that person has left the space.
• This kind of spread is referred to as airborne transmission and is an important way that infections like tuberculosis, measles, and chicken pox are spread.
• There is evidence that under certain conditions, people with COVID-19 seem to have infected others who were more than 6 feet away. These transmissions occurred within enclosed spaces that had inadequate ventilation. Sometimes the infected person was breathing heavily, for example while singing or exercising.
  • Under these circumstances, scientists believe that the amount of infectious smaller droplet and particles produced by the people with COVID-19 became concentrated enough to spread the virus to other people. The people who were infected were in the same space during the same time or shortly after the person with COVID-19 had left.
• Available data indicate that it is much more common for the virus that causes COVID-19 to spread through close contact with a person who has COVID-19 than through airborne transmission. [1]

COVID-19 spreads less commonly through contact with contaminated surfaces​

• Respiratory droplets can also land on surfaces and objects. It is possible that a person could get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or eyes.
• Spread from touching surfaces is not thought to be a common way that COVIDThe person who wrote it WAS THE CDC ON THEIR WEBSITE

I think this is the same article that you obviously didn't read.

 

[Fess]

You're assuming that masks are the one variable that accounts for the difference. It could be any number of things.

You are absolutely right. Masks are not the only variable. There are a number of cultural differences that allow places like South Korea and Japan to have lower infection rates. For example, in both places, it is not uncommon for someone who even thinks they MIGHT have cold or other infectious disease to wear a mask to protect others. That is rare here in the US. There is much more acceptance of tracking of individuals. Here that would be considered a violation of privacy. The term used in my high school history class was "rugged individualism" to describe our culture.
Although not very PC, there may well be a genetic component. I vaguely remember something about a particular gene that is related to immune system issues caused by things like covid.

My previous work with air quality and filtration makes me think that masks are important, though. This and the very fact that so many of our medical professionals have managed to avoid catching Covid despite having many hours of direct contact with infected patients tends to indicate that their use of PPE is critical. As I noted before, some of them use regular N95, KN95 and equivalent masks since they don't have access to the fancy powered HEPA respirators.

 

[two fingers]

Did any of you guys actually look the numbers? Essentially, the data you quoted proves that masks DO work and South Korea is much safer than the US. I have listed sources, so you can check the math.

South Korea still has a much lower infection rate than the US. About 1/30 the US rate (see analysis below). North Carolina alone (population 10.5 million) has averaged well over 5,000 cases per day for the past three weeks and yesterday, over 8,000 new cases (Covidtracking.com)

The math:
S. Korea has roughly 52 million people (world bank numbers). The US, roughly 328 million (US Census Bureau)
1,100 covid cases per day in S. Korea, according to the chart above.
This last week averaged over 220,000 cases per day in the US. (240,156 on Thursday) (Covidtracking.com)
The US has 6 times the population of S. Korea and 200+ times the Covid cases. (Actual numbers. S. Korea 1 case per 47,900 people. US, 1 case per 1,400 people)
South Korea deaths from Covid: 659 (Johns Hopkins U)
North Carolina Deaths from Covid 6,184 (Johns Hopkins)

Masks DO work. My Brother is a Nurse Practitioner in NC and has been working with covid patients in Nursing Homes and Assisted Living facilities or months. He wears either a N95 mask or the KN95 masks that can be bought on Amazon. His facilities can't afford the fancy powered air filtering setups. So far, thank God, he has stayed healthy.

1) N95 masks are somewhat effective. The rest are essentially useless.

2) Koreans have not been wearing N95 masks for the most part.

3) Koreans have been wearing masks THE WHOLE TIME and their numbers have been a roller coaster just like every other country.... only their spikes have been at different times. So, if they've been wearing masks the whole time, and have still had several spikes, what does that tell you? (I'll let you think about that one simple question for a minute.)

 

[Fess]

I think this is the same article that you obviously didn't read.

Actually, I have read it. I have no idea what you mean. It is possible that I completely misunderstand your point.

 

[SPST]

If masks work, why can't we wear them and go to a movie theater? How is sitting in a movie theater for 2 hours different from sitting beside people on a plane for 2 hours?

 

[Fess]

1) N95 masks are somewhat effective. The rest are essentially useless.

2) Koreans have not been wearing N95 masks for the most part.

3) Koreans have been wearing masks THE WHOLE TIME and their numbers have been a roller coaster just like every other country.... only their spikes have been at different times. So, if they've been wearing masks the whole time, and have still had several spikes, what does that tell you? (I'll let you think about that one simple question for a minute.)

Yes, their numbers have been a roller coaster. They have seasons in Korea just like us. Nevertheless, their infection and death rates are much, much lower than ours. What exactly is your point?

 

[SPST]

Does anyone know what the actual numbers are for deaths from heart disease and flu for this year?

 

[Fess]

If masks work, why can't we wear them and go to a movie theater? How is sitting in a movie theater for 2 hours different from sitting beside people on a plane for 2 hours?

That is an entirely different issue. As a technical point, aircraft ventilation systems can provide much higher air exchange ratios than typical HVAC units used for movie theaters. I would personally be fine going to a movie now while wearing a mask, provided the it is not too crowded. Just because I think masks work does not mean that I agree with a lot of the current restrictions.

 

[SPST]

Do masks not work between 10pm and 5am? Will I be safe from the virus in Walmart at 2pm but not at 2am?

 

[Fess]

Does anyone know what the actual numbers are for deaths from heart disease and flu for this year?

Flue seasons are counted from summer to summer. The CDC numbers for the 2019-2020 season were 22,000. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2019-2020.html

If you really want to know, I might be able to find month-to-month numbers and isolate just 2020. Looking at the graphs, the majority of those deaths were in 2020.
I haven't been able to find the total flu deaths, but the CDC says "lower than usual for this time of year." Here is a link to a graph for the past several years of flu and it now includes covid to give you an idea.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2020-2021/NCHS50.html

 

[SPST]

I wonder if they are lower than usual because everything is being counted as Covid? I also wonder if the average daily deaths will be much lower than usual in 2020 for heart disease, cancer, etc because everything is being counted as Covid? Only time will tell.

 

[noway2]

I haven't been able to find the total flu deaths, but the CDC says "lower than usual for this time of year."

The thing about the CDC and flu deaths is that the report not actually based upon counted data and testing. It’s based upon modeling and the assumption that it’s killed X number of people. read that early on in the Covid thing, from an ER doctor who said, I see gun shots deaths, heart attacks, car accident deaths, etc, every day but i‘ve only see one flu death.

 

[Gray]

I wonder if they are lower than usual because everything is being counted as Covid? I also wonder if the average daily deaths will be much lower than usual in 2020 for heart disease, cancer, etc because everything is being counted as Covid? Only time will tell.

Just remain afraid and comply. GovCo will tell you what to do since they have the people’s best interest in mind at all times.

 

[beamernc]

It will be interesting to look back after all of this is over with and see how the total number of deaths in the US compares to the total number of deaths from other years. I suspect it will not be noticeably higher.

 

[two fingers]

Yes, their numbers have been a roller coaster. They have seasons in Korea just like us. Nevertheless, their infection and death rates are much, much lower than ours. What exactly is your point?

And you attribute that to masks why?

Everything affects the severity of C19. Genetics, age, lifestyle, co-morbidities, etc.

Part of the reason Italy got hit so hard in the beginning was their family dynamics. They visit their mothers almost daily (culturally speaking).

How do you know it is cloth masks saving the people of Korea?

If I found data that showed people who brush their teeth in the morning have fewer car wrecks by 20%, you could argue that good oral hygene prevents car wrecks. But it wouldn't be true.

The mortality rate could he lower in Korea because they only report people who ACTUALLY DIED from C19, and not WITH C19.

Here in the states, one could die from a heart attack. But if he/she happens to have C19 at the time of the heart attack, it's called a COVID death. (Have you noticed that flu and heart disease deaths are WAY down in the US? Wonder why that is? Is it possible that flu deaths and heart related deaths are being reported as C19 deaths if the patient happened to have it?)

So, what proof do you have that masks have anything to do with rates of infection in Korea?

Again (sigh) C19 does NOT transmit by walking through a puff of air an infected person just exhaled. Period. You can't get it by walking through a COVID cloud at Walmart. Period. It doesn't hang in the air for minutes. It's heavier than air. It doesn't live on surfaces for long periods of time.

You have to share the air for several minutes with an infected person. (10 -15 minutes within 6 feet according to the CDC)

One can make an argument for restaurants being a potential issue, because we share the air with everyone else eating there for a while. If someone is very nearby and/or coughing we can make an argument.

Ah crap. Why do I bother with this?

 

[Hadoken]

1) N95 masks are somewhat effective. The rest are essentially useless.

2) Koreans have not been wearing N95 masks for the most part.

3) Koreans have been wearing masks THE WHOLE TIME and their numbers have been a roller coaster just like every other country.... only their spikes have been at different times. So, if they've been wearing masks the whole time, and have still had several spikes, what does that tell you? (I'll let you think about that one simple question for a minute.)

It’s a painting with a mighty broad brush to call 1000 cases a day in Korea the same roller coaster as 230000 cases a day in the USA.
51 million vs 330 million populations, so population adjusted 7000 vs 230000 cases.
Again, I don’t know if masks work or not. I don’t care if you wear one or not. But if you are using this particular data point as an example of why NOT to wear a mask or why they don’t work, it makes you look foolish.

 

[AR10ShooterinNC]

If the mask is not sealed to your face, it's not working....

 

[Tailhunter]

So wear a mask if you want, who cares?

 

[B00ger]

The main reason I think masks can help, at least a little, is they keep you from rubbing your eyes/nose, wiping your mouth, and all that stuff we do sometimes. Even subconsciously. I don’t magically think that the thin cotton barrier is somehow fending off a virus. But it is keeping my hands away from my face. I don’t worry about the airborne stuff, because like it’s been said, a virus proof mask looks more like a gas mask than mouth panties. But I do think that it may get left behind on door handles and stuff I am touching as I navigate a store/restaurant and the mask is a deterrent from subconsciously touching my face.

So, to be clear, I wear one. But mainly out of a desire not to give shop/restaurant owners an even bigger headache than they already have trying to deal with all of the new regulations, loss of business, potential shutdowns, and so forth as well as preventing me from passing it from my own hands to my face.

When I see people without them, I don’t care. When I see people with them, I don’t care.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fess]

And you attribute that to masks why?

Everything affects the severity of C19. Genetics, age, lifestyle, co-morbidities, etc.

You are correct. I overreached. I cannot prove that masks are the primary reason. The chance that they do not have some effect is a vanishingly small probability, but it is not impossible.
The South Koreans have 1/30 the infection rate and 1/455 the deaths of the US.

My professional background includes emission sampling, work with air quality analysis, air filtration, industrial hazardous dust, acid vapor and mist treatment, oil-mist removal and filtration, many hundreds of hours working in respirators, hazardous material and hazardous waste management, and hazmat emergency response. I am very familiar with the capabilities and limitations of mechanical and electrostatic filtration systems.

CDC states: "Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19." These are what even mediocre masks to a good job of stopping. You may notice that they have dropped the 10-15 minute exposure bit. That is now considered so dangerous that a 10 day quarantine is recommended if someone does that. Many people have no idea how they were infected, even if they did not have that kind of exposure.

I also pointed out that many medical professionals, my brother included have worn masks and even though they have spent thousands of hours exposed to people with Covid they have not themselves contracted the disease.

You stated "Again (sigh) C19 does NOT transmit by walking through a puff of air an infected person just exhaled. Period. You can't get it by walking through a COVID cloud at Walmart. Period. It doesn't hang in the air for minutes."
PROVE IT.
You cannot. All it takes is high enough load of virus. That is how disease works. Many of those who have died from Covid had no idea how they were exposed. The Covid cloud you pass through at Walmart is UNLIKELY to infect you, but it is not impossible.

Here in the US if someone has been gasping for breath for days and their heart stops pumping from that strain and low blood oxygen levels, it seems you would say "heart problems, not Covid".

 

[two fingers]

It’s a painting with a mighty broad brush to call 1000 cases a day in Korea the same roller coaster as 230000 cases a day in the USA.
51 million vs 330 million populations, so population adjusted 7000 vs 230000 cases.
Again, I don’t know if masks work or not. I don’t care if you wear one or not. But if you are using this particular data point as an example of why NOT to wear a mask or why they don’t work, it makes you look foolish.

I wasn't the one who posted the data.

However, if you are using this data to prove masks work, you look foolish.

 

[Fess]

The thing about the CDC and flu deaths is that the report not actually based upon counted data and testing. It’s based upon modeling and the assumption that it’s killed X number of people. read that early on in the Covid thing, from an ER doctor who said, I see gun shots deaths, heart attacks, car accident deaths, etc, every day but i‘ve only see one flu death.

For a number of years the flu test has been cheap and available and , if you ask someone who works is a hospital, it done almost immediately to those admitted with symptoms. It is easy to do and doctors want to know exactly what they are dealing with. Deadly Covid symptoms are obvious and, because Covid is so contagious, virtually all those patients are tested for it, partially so those working with them can take proper precautions. That was not always the case early this year, but if you ask anyone who works in a hospital, they will tell you this.
The ER doctor story is entertaining because the answer is "of course!" Few people who die of the flu do so in emergency rooms. They have been admitted and are seen by other doctors. People with severe flu generally don't stagger into an ER and drop dead .

 

[two fingers]

You are correct. I overreached. I cannot prove that masks are the primary reason. The chance that they do not have some effect is a vanishingly small probability, but it is not impossible.
The South Koreans have 1/30 the infection rate and 1/455 the deaths of the US.

My professional background includes emission sampling, work with air quality analysis, air filtration, industrial hazardous dust, acid vapor and mist treatment, oil-mist removal and filtration, many hundreds of hours working in respirators, hazardous material and hazardous waste management, and hazmat emergency response. I am very familiar with the capabilities and limitations of mechanical and electrostatic filtration systems.

CDC states: "Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19." These are what even mediocre masks to a good job of stopping. You may notice that they have dropped the 10-15 minute exposure bit. That is now considered so dangerous that a 10 day quarantine is recommended if someone does that. Many people have no idea how they were infected, even if they did not have that kind of exposure.

I also pointed out that many medical professionals, my brother included have worn masks and even though they have spent thousands of hours exposed to people with Covid they have not themselves contracted the disease.

You stated "Again (sigh) C19 does NOT transmit by walking through a puff of air an infected person just exhaled. Period. You can't get it by walking through a COVID cloud at Walmart. Period. It doesn't hang in the air for minutes."
PROVE IT.
You cannot. All it takes is high enough load of virus. That is how disease works. Many of those who have died from Covid had no idea how they were exposed. The Covid cloud you pass through at Walmart is UNLIKELY to infect you, but it is not impossible.

Here in the US if someone has been gasping for breath for days and their heart stops pumping from that strain and low blood oxygen levels, it seems you would say "heart problems, not Covid".

I too work for a hospital system. I know lots of doctors and nurses who work in the ICU of three hospitals. They have all told me countless stories of patients coming into the hospital for all kinds of ailments. They may die of a severe stroke. If they happen to be COVID positive, and showed zero symptoms, they are STILL counted as a COVID death. I'm not speculating about this. It's a fact. If it has happened dozens of times in rural NC, it stands to reason it has happened countless times elsewhere.

As for your brother....

If he is working in a unit where there are known COVID patients, he is wearing N95 masks. Period. As such, they are effective at preventing the inhale of viral particles. Almost nobody out in public is wearing an N95 mask. So, for the purposes of this discussion, I have not been talking about N95 masks. As such, I haven't been talking about your brother in his hospital.

 

[CZfool68]

That is an entirely different issue. As a technical point, aircraft ventilation systems can provide much higher air exchange ratios than typical HVAC units used for movie theaters. I would personally be fine going to a movie now while wearing a mask, provided the it is not too crowded. Just because I think masks work does not mean that I agree with a lot of the current restrictions.

They don’t exchange air on planes, they just recirculate the nasty crap. Worst place to be. Ever. I’ll take my chances in a cramped strip club bathroom with no fan.

 

[Hadoken]

I wasn't the one who posted the data.

However, if you are using this data to prove masks work, you look foolish.

Right, but this entire thread on the original zero hedge article being discussed are attempting to use this data to disprove masks.

 

[Fess]

It will be interesting to look back after all of this is over with and see how the total number of deaths in the US compares to the total number of deaths from other years. I suspect it will not be noticeably higher.

The statistical increase in deaths was seen by mid summer, if I recall correctly. What is expected is the opposite. A large portion of the people who have died from Covid had chronic conditions that would normally have killed them a few years later. After the elderly and other vulnerable people have been vaccinated, it is expected that the overall death rate for that group will drop slightly for a few years. That is provided, of course, that no other deadly epidemics occur.

 

[CZfool68]

Anybody notice how quickly they buried that Johns Hopkins’ study? Ha. Nothing to see there. Same with about 10 other recent studies.

 

[Fess]

If he is working in a unit where there are known COVID patients, he is wearing N95 masks. Period. As such, they are effective at preventing the inhale of viral particles. Almost nobody out in public is wearing an N95 mask. So, for the purposes of this discussion, I have not been talking about N95 masks. As such, I haven't been talking about your brother in his hospital.

He does indeed work in N95 masks. I have worked in those and Hepa/organic vapor respirators quite a bit and it is grueling after a number of hours.

I have some N95's, but I haven't used them because they have the exhalation flaps and this might endanger others, should I become ill. The KN95 masks that I mainly wear meet virtually the same standard (they have a higher allowed air pressure drop, but not much). Both meet 95% of 0.3 microns efficiency. They cost less than $2 each from Amazon. They have been is stock for several months.

I discussed the efficiency of other masks earlier in this thread, so I won't repeat everything. These are not as good a the rated masks (N95, KN95, hepa) but they are still fairly effective at stopping the large "respiratory droplets" referred to by this statement of the CDC: "Infections occur mainly through exposure to respiratory droplets when a person is in close contact with someone who has COVID-19".* They are not nearly as effective for the small aerosols, but those are said to be less of a problem)

There are numerous properties that make different materials used in masks effective. We are not dealing with TB or measles. Pure mechanical particle filtration efficiency is not the only way they work with the kind of wet respiratory droplets that carry Covid. If a material is sufficiently absorbent (some cotton-based fabrics are like this) the droplet will adhere to the material upon impaction. Before I got the KN95's, my homemade mask was a modified CDC design made of tight, absorbent flannel. I sewed a pocket at the top to hold something like thick wire-ties that could be bent to form a good seal on my nose. The electrostatic properties of other masks (like most N95's) work differently, but I am not familiar with their exact properties. They are particularly good for dry particles.

Sorry, I got carried away with technical details. Maybe some other readers will find this useful.



*https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-covid-spreads.html