But, But, Masks!??...
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Okay, this has gone full-tilt TL,DR.
Until yesterday I was a medical laboratory technician for Labcorpse (not a typo). Wearing a mask for 12 hr shifts is effectively wearing a capnophilic incubator on my face. Most well known capnophile? H. influenza. Yeah, I definitely want that shit. Everyone said to wash your hands & not touch yer face. So, I'm supposed to to put a thing on my face that traps & holds various microorganisms & hafta touch my face repeatedly to take it on & off?
We're not seeing huge increases in Kung Flu cases & if you have the tiniest sliver of intellectual honesty, you'll know that these oodles of new cases we're hearing about are from positive test results, not active infections.
I've got a lot of family that are nurses. In the KC area, they're not being overwhelmed by folks dying of the Rona. They're having staffing issues due to cancelling elective/routine stuff & laying off employees (except admin, of course), but there are no piles of bodies in reefer vans.
One cousin owns a vascular access clinic & the majority of her patients are elderly/high risk. Not only are they not dying at an accelerated rate, she feels like shit, 'cos their families aren't allowed physical contact with the patient & the only people allowed to treat/comfort these folks are complete strangers.
If you work in/know someone in hospital admin & they're telling you something different, ask em how much time they spend in direct patient care. If you've got/had some high falutin' technical/science-y job, good for you, but until you take a couple years of very in depth immunology, virology, microbiology, serology & the like, you're just playing the SME game on a subject for which you are not.
If you provide direct patient care, your input has merit, but only inasmuch as it applies to your actual day to day duties.
We have exactly one nurse in the fam who is all "ermahgerd, the Rona!", but this is the same one who got pissy about her kid's doctor not giving her antibiotics for a cold. If you don't understand the stupid in that attitude, you are not qualified to have an opinion on any of this.
Until yesterday I was a medical laboratory technician for Labcorpse (not a typo). Wearing a mask for 12 hr shifts is effectively wearing a capnophilic incubator on my face. Most well known capnophile? H. influenza. Yeah, I definitely want that shit. Everyone said to wash your hands & not touch yer face. So, I'm supposed to to put a thing on my face that traps & holds various microorganisms & hafta touch my face repeatedly to take it on & off?
We're not seeing huge increases in Kung Flu cases & if you have the tiniest sliver of intellectual honesty, you'll know that these oodles of new cases we're hearing about are from positive test results, not active infections.
I've got a lot of family that are nurses. In the KC area, they're not being overwhelmed by folks dying of the Rona. They're having staffing issues due to cancelling elective/routine stuff & laying off employees (except admin, of course), but there are no piles of bodies in reefer vans.
One cousin owns a vascular access clinic & the majority of her patients are elderly/high risk. Not only are they not dying at an accelerated rate, she feels like shit, 'cos their families aren't allowed physical contact with the patient & the only people allowed to treat/comfort these folks are complete strangers.
If you work in/know someone in hospital admin & they're telling you something different, ask em how much time they spend in direct patient care. If you've got/had some high falutin' technical/science-y job, good for you, but until you take a couple years of very in depth immunology, virology, microbiology, serology & the like, you're just playing the SME game on a subject for which you are not.
If you provide direct patient care, your input has merit, but only inasmuch as it applies to your actual day to day duties.
We have exactly one nurse in the fam who is all "ermahgerd, the Rona!", but this is the same one who got pissy about her kid's doctor not giving her antibiotics for a cold. If you don't understand the stupid in that attitude, you are not qualified to have an opinion on any of this.
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Why does 'the sacrifice' always have to come from someone else?
Your entire paragraph can be turned 180 degrees and instead be slung at the people who feel threatened by covid.
"I have a compromised immune system/or don't. I'm very worried about covid. So I've decided to isolate myself. I feel it is upon me to take the sacrifice necessary for the good of my fellow American, and end this national tragedy that has resulted in millions of innocent lives being utterly shattered. I find it interesting that so many of the people who wear masks call themselves patriots when they themselves are the unwitting cause of so many American deaths. What the rest of the world thinks about our Republic is completely irrelevant. There was a time where sacrifice for the good of our fellow Americans was seen as a sign of patriotism."
But it never goes like that does it?
The mask-or-death group likes to think they're sacrificing. Wear the mask, stay 30 feet away from everything, got the key fob hand sanitizer, conduct life in a robotic manner. My God the things they do for us!
C'mon man!/Here's the deal- You're doing the absolute minimum and you know it. Real sacrifice on your part..for the good of your fellow Americans that you're so concerned about..would have you staying at home pretty much all the time. By your own admission, this is the best solution.
The technology that allows your thought process with masks also allows every thing you need to live delivered right to your house. Whether you're pro-mask or hate-mask, this cannot be disputed. If you're at home all the time, you can honestly say that you're not part of the problem, any problem, and then your finger-wagging might become justified.
Want the rest of us to sacrifice?
You first.
I knew when this mask thing was just getting started that they were going to use it to force what other's can do. At the time it was just about wearing one yourself, zero evidence had been presented that they helped at all, and I remember posting essentially "don't try and force me to conform to your phobia" because I knew it was coming, and that's exactly what they tuned this into. This whole virus thing, if planned, was an absolute stroke of genius by the the democrats. Even if it wasn't planned, it gave power to democrat governors to ruin the economy, it gave them something to blame trump for, and a means to impose draconian authoritative measures to condition the masses that government is all powerful. Well played. I just hope and pray that the conspirators and their allies in both parties are made to pay for their crimes.
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KitShickers
Well-Known Member
It’s going to be up to us to make them pay, unfortunately. We can’t wait for government to save us from government.
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To be more specific, while masks work, the WAY 99% of people wearing them isn’t.
Putting them in pockets, grabbing them, handling them throughout the day, touching them, etc. just makes a nice little breeding ground for whatever virus we’re trying to prevent. Wearing these dirty, infected masks does nothing but say “hey guys look at me, I’m helping!”
These “scientists” keep telling people to wear masks but they don’t use an iota of energy to tell people to wear new, clean masks. Weird, huh
Surgical masks are so cheap, I make a point to wear a new one everyday when I go out. Yes, they don’t do much unless EVERYONE has a clean one but we know that’s not happening. Doing what I can at least. If it protects me or others, who knows
But yes, I agree with you completely. The way the masks are being handled now makes them near-pointless
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Fess
Well-Known Member
Uh, the definition of sacrifice is :":the act of giving up something that you want to keep especially in order to get or do something else or to help someone."(merriam-webster dictionary)
You have pretty much described my life for more than a decade. It is not uncommon for me to be able to leave the house only a couple of times per month. That, by the way, is why I have the time to do so much more research than most people. I need the distraction. For me, getting back into shooting is an attempt to find an activity that makes it worth the pain to be upright and out of traction for a few hours. Believe me, there are a lot of times when death looks pretty damned attractive, so I am not "afraid" of Covid at all. I do care for the health and safety of other people, though, so when I do go out, I try my best to avoid being a part of the chain in the Covid death cycle.
None of that changes the fact that we do have some personal control over this particular disease. Nowhere near 100%, but some control. We are learning more about it every day and this leads to changes in advice from "experts". I know that's frustrating. What we do know is that this disease is usually not deliberately passed on by people who know they are infected and intend to infect others. It is done accidentally. I would imagine that most of you would say something like "if I had known I was contagious, I would have acted differently." That is part of the problem with this particular disease, most of the damage is done before its warning signs show up. The largest impact on this disease is done by people who take precautions even though they don't feel at personal risk.
I learned long ago that there are some people who will never change their minds, so there is little point in attempting to show them they are wrong. I bet everyone here knows someone like that. There are others who are aware that there is much incorrect information out there and would like to learn the truth or at least take a look at issues from a different angle. I am one of those people. That is why I participate in some of these discussions.
I honestly hope that none of you lose the ability to go about "normal lives" like I have, but because I spend much of my time immobile, I can offer do research for people who genuinely want to know details. I can't concentrate well all of the time, but when I can, just ask.
Qball
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I personally know of several people (older relatives or acquaintances) who have passed away in 2020. One had developed severe cognitive issues due to a bad fall a few years ago. His cause of death was listed as related to this Chinese virus. My Aunt passed away in the early fall of this year. She had Alzheimer's, severe heart disease, suffered a major stroke, and had some form of cancer and died at the age of 92. Her cause of death was listed as related to this Chinese virus.
My wife's aunt, her Mother's sister, recently passed away at the ripe old age of 103. She passed away in her sleep and aside from the usual ailments related to old age, she had no severe medical conditions that she was receiving treatment for at the time of her death. Her death was recorded as caused by this Covid virus.
There are several other examples that my wife has mentioned that she knows of in her circle of friends on Facebook, which I am not a member.
Numbers related to this mess: I don't trust nor believe any of it is true.
As far as the mask is concerned, I will only wear one out of respect for the business or other establishment that is only trying to follow the law. Even then I don't always wear one. I wear the disposable kind and throw them away after each use. I can't imagine the bacteria that builds up on the inside of these masks.
The government can shove these masks right up where the sun don't shine if they try to force me to wear a mask outside, in my home, or in my vehicle.
My wife's aunt, her Mother's sister, recently passed away at the ripe old age of 103. She passed away in her sleep and aside from the usual ailments related to old age, she had no severe medical conditions that she was receiving treatment for at the time of her death. Her death was recorded as caused by this Covid virus.
There are several other examples that my wife has mentioned that she knows of in her circle of friends on Facebook, which I am not a member.
Numbers related to this mess: I don't trust nor believe any of it is true.
As far as the mask is concerned, I will only wear one out of respect for the business or other establishment that is only trying to follow the law. Even then I don't always wear one. I wear the disposable kind and throw them away after each use. I can't imagine the bacteria that builds up on the inside of these masks.
The government can shove these masks right up where the sun don't shine if they try to force me to wear a mask outside, in my home, or in my vehicle.
At this rate there won’t be an old person left on the planet.
No more good stories, good food, imparted wisdom and warm smiles.
Now that would be a shame. ☹️
No more good stories, good food, imparted wisdom and warm smiles.
Now that would be a shame. ☹️
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The man broke his back carrying all that virtue...
But no thought to the millions unemployed.
No thought to the thousands facing divorce or family problems.
No care for the countless additional overdose cases.
No issue with the mass influx of psychological issues being dealt with by millions.
Neglecting that during the “worst plague of our lifetime” the death rate in the US is down for the year compared to years past.
No issue with the rise in alcohol abuse
No issue with kids being left behind as schools close down and they have no support at home for their learning.
No issue with the hundreds of thousands of kids who missed meals because school was closed and they lost their only reliable source of nutrition.
But hey...he wore a mask, and fought the good fight with strangers on the internets. The vast majority who also agree that wearing a mask is fine at times.
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But no thought to the millions unemployed.
No thought to the thousands facing divorce or family problems.
No care for the countless additional overdose cases.
No issue with the mass influx of psychological issues being dealt with by millions.
Neglecting that during the “worst plague of our lifetime” the death rate in the US is down for the year compared to years past.
No issue with the rise in alcohol abuse
No issue with kids being left behind as schools close down and they have no support at home for their learning.
No issue with the hundreds of thousands of kids who missed meals because school was closed and they lost their only reliable source of nutrition.
But hey...he wore a mask, and fought the good fight with strangers on the internets. The vast majority who also agree that wearing a mask is fine at times.
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Aardvark
Identifies as okie-dokie
Thanks for your input Fess. I wish you all the best. My wish is that you would research for us the top three ways besides wearing a mask that would be most effective as methods to release us from the evil that's been forced upon us by those that wish our subjugation. Thank you for your efforts!
Fess..I never disputed your argument.
I think you present it well, whether I agree or not.
But when you get on the soap box that's when you lose me.
Yes. It is that simple.
I think you present it well, whether I agree or not.
But when you get on the soap box that's when you lose me.
Regardless of whether you are right or wrong, no-one hired you to do this job.
Yes. It is that simple.
Fess
Well-Known Member
I got hurt in an industrial accident, but got screwed by my employer of 15 years. As it turns out, back and spine damage is very expensive and very large self-insured companies would rather spend a hundred grand on fancy lawyers to avoid several times that in spine surgeries for their loyal employees.
Sorry for getting overly dramatic and preachy. Yesterday was a rough day. For those who don't know, muscle relaxants are also brain relaxants. I typed some of that stuff at 3:30 in the morning when I was in too much pain to sleep. Few things piss me off more than conspiracy theories. In the past few years, it seems the fashion to claim that nothing is as it seems, everyone with a different opinion is actually evil, and oh, yes and that any person who has expertise in a technical field is a deep-state liar. I have heard this crap for over 50 years, often espoused by people whom I once respected. It has always been wrong. One 1970's version often claimed that full-sized cars could easily get 200 mpg, but the evil gas companies kept killing off the scientists. Anyone who understood friction, combustion and materials available at the time knew it was a crock, yet we were called "conspirators." In the 90's was the "secret army (sometimes from Israel) and their fleet of black helicopters what were going to swoop down and take away our guns." I knew a number of otherwise intelligent people who fearfully slept with loaded weapons under their pillows because they were convinced it was going to happen "any day". Guess what. It did not.
It seems that some of your believe that just because I believe filtration is the best option, that for some reason I agree with all the restriction policies. That is simply not true. I think the restrictions went too far. There are a number of things that can be done in stores, schools, restaurants, movie theaters, etc, to minimize the risk.
As I stated before, your actions or inactions only bother me if they cause a threat to others. Then again, I think that it is completely valid for a grocery or retail store to require customers to wear masks for the protection of their own employees. That is their right. If someone does not want to wear a mask, don't shop at that store. It's your choice.
Anytime politics gets mixed in to important discussions, the technical merits tend to fall by the wayside. It is my personal opinion that making masks a political statement has cost our country billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and it annoys me that we are the laughingstock of the developed world.
I HAVE done research of alternatives. Masks and distancing are indeed the most effective measures, at least based on all of the info I have been able to find. My background is in engineering and much of my work involved emissions, exposure to toxic compounds and filtration, including wet droplets and particles. I have worked in deadly acid atmospheres (acid spills) where my life has depended upon a safe air supply. This is an area that I understand. The comment attributed to a nuclear power plant engineer just shows that he has no background in dealing with the kind of wet droplets (spit) that contain a virus. He apparently is under the impression that individual virus particles (virons) are floating around. Those are tiny and WOULD go through the masks commonly used. But that is not how this particular disease is transmitted. I have explained details of wet-particle filtration and removal somewhere on this site, but I can't remember where. It is technical and boring. It is not based on politics.
The few medical people who early on claimed that masks did not work were also out of their depth and my wife can tell you I loudly disagreed at the time. That message got mixed and confused with the more reasonable "don't buy up all the N95 masks that are needed by medical personnel."
Oh yes, for those who did not understand my earlier comment about the eyes being a place that can absorb a virus, the eyes have a semi-permeable mucus membrane. There are actually some medications that use eyedrops as the delivery system. I could have just said "mucus membranes" like in the CDC info, but I thought that that sounded pompous.
Sorry for getting overly dramatic and preachy. Yesterday was a rough day. For those who don't know, muscle relaxants are also brain relaxants. I typed some of that stuff at 3:30 in the morning when I was in too much pain to sleep. Few things piss me off more than conspiracy theories. In the past few years, it seems the fashion to claim that nothing is as it seems, everyone with a different opinion is actually evil, and oh, yes and that any person who has expertise in a technical field is a deep-state liar. I have heard this crap for over 50 years, often espoused by people whom I once respected. It has always been wrong. One 1970's version often claimed that full-sized cars could easily get 200 mpg, but the evil gas companies kept killing off the scientists. Anyone who understood friction, combustion and materials available at the time knew it was a crock, yet we were called "conspirators." In the 90's was the "secret army (sometimes from Israel) and their fleet of black helicopters what were going to swoop down and take away our guns." I knew a number of otherwise intelligent people who fearfully slept with loaded weapons under their pillows because they were convinced it was going to happen "any day". Guess what. It did not.
It seems that some of your believe that just because I believe filtration is the best option, that for some reason I agree with all the restriction policies. That is simply not true. I think the restrictions went too far. There are a number of things that can be done in stores, schools, restaurants, movie theaters, etc, to minimize the risk.
As I stated before, your actions or inactions only bother me if they cause a threat to others. Then again, I think that it is completely valid for a grocery or retail store to require customers to wear masks for the protection of their own employees. That is their right. If someone does not want to wear a mask, don't shop at that store. It's your choice.
Anytime politics gets mixed in to important discussions, the technical merits tend to fall by the wayside. It is my personal opinion that making masks a political statement has cost our country billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and it annoys me that we are the laughingstock of the developed world.
I HAVE done research of alternatives. Masks and distancing are indeed the most effective measures, at least based on all of the info I have been able to find. My background is in engineering and much of my work involved emissions, exposure to toxic compounds and filtration, including wet droplets and particles. I have worked in deadly acid atmospheres (acid spills) where my life has depended upon a safe air supply. This is an area that I understand. The comment attributed to a nuclear power plant engineer just shows that he has no background in dealing with the kind of wet droplets (spit) that contain a virus. He apparently is under the impression that individual virus particles (virons) are floating around. Those are tiny and WOULD go through the masks commonly used. But that is not how this particular disease is transmitted. I have explained details of wet-particle filtration and removal somewhere on this site, but I can't remember where. It is technical and boring. It is not based on politics.
The few medical people who early on claimed that masks did not work were also out of their depth and my wife can tell you I loudly disagreed at the time. That message got mixed and confused with the more reasonable "don't buy up all the N95 masks that are needed by medical personnel."
Oh yes, for those who did not understand my earlier comment about the eyes being a place that can absorb a virus, the eyes have a semi-permeable mucus membrane. There are actually some medications that use eyedrops as the delivery system. I could have just said "mucus membranes" like in the CDC info, but I thought that that sounded pompous.
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Fess
Well-Known Member
Be careful. There are mucus membranes in there too! 😮
I had thought of making a joke about that before, but your setup was just too tempting!
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Yeah we just met that fella. He is you.
Fess
Well-Known Member
The estimates are that the US will have roughly 400,000 more deaths in 2020 than it had in 2019. That will be roughly a 15% increase over last year.
US deaths in 2020 top 3 million, by far most ever counted
NEW YORK (AP) — This is the deadliest year in U.S. history, with deaths expected to top 3 million for the first time — due mainly to the coronavirus pandemic.
apnews.com
Aardvark
Identifies as okie-dokie
...and especially stay away from churches, pubs and mom-n-pop restaurants. You know, the places where resistance movements historically organize...
The Moderna mRNA-1273 vaccine has been in human trials since March 16, 2020.
It was designed just days after the COVID genetic sequence was made public. In mid-January (before the first confirmed US case).
Experimental COVID-19 vaccine safe, generates immune response
An investigational vaccine, mRNA-1273, designed to protect against SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), was generally well tolerated and prompted neutralizing antibody activity in healthy adults, according to interim results.www.sciencedaily.com
Oh, ok, a vaccine that has been around for 9 months. You best not be in my way as I rush out for it!
My theory is that Biden will mandate some really strict lockdown for a month or so then all coverage of the virus will go away and he'll get the credit for fixing it all.
Fess
Well-Known Member
I did some more research and you are indeed correct about the CDC using some modeling on influenza deaths. I was WRONG when I stated that they almost always know from testing for the flu. The CDC does indeed still do some modeling to determine what they call "the burden of season influenza. Getting a clear idea of actual flu-related deaths is more difficult that I thought.
How CDC Estimates the Burden of Seasonal Influenza in the U.S. | CDC
Links to key resources on the burden of influenza - CDC
www.cdc.gov
Despite laboratory tests for the influenza virus being readily available, many die without having been tested or after their test has turned positive. In addition, a significant number of people don't die in hospitals. Also, it turns out that people can die from pneumonia that was precipitated by influenza, but by the time they die, there is little enough flu virus in their system that the lab test won't show the flu. Sometimes the stress of the flu causes death in a number of ways. The linked CDC page states: "Seasonal influenza may lead to death from other causes, such as pneumonia, congestive heart failure, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease." My mother in law went into the hospital with the flu, but died a few days later from pneumonia that was caused by the flu.
Sometimes it is difficult to determine if a death should be considered flu related. For example if someone with severe flu has heart attack during a severe coughing fit, the cause of death might well be recorded as heart attack. The same can happen with someone slowly dying from congestive heart failure. The stress of the flu and a small amount of fluid in the lungs (not enough to be considered pneumonia, though) may be enough to finally cause death.
Nevertheless, there have been a lot more US deaths in 2020 than in 2019, or ever before, for that matter. As of October, it appeared that the US death numbers were roughly 300,000 more than the Jan-Oct numbers for 2019. The interesting thing is that close to 100,000 of those extra deaths have not be attributed to COVID. The year-over-year increase in deaths is expected to be closer to 400,000 by the end of the this year. Again that is considerably more than attributed to COVID. It will be interesting to see how this is explained.
DrScaryGuy
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Well suicides are up due to the lockdown, so we'll blame guns for that and put in new laws.
We can probably pin some of those suicides on racist sexist homophobic xenophobic deplorables and make new hate speech laws and mandate diversity training, add new restrictions on churches.
Probably an increase in obesity related deaths because, lockdown means theres a lack of getting out and exercising, so we'll blame lifestyle choices for that and factor it into obamacare rationing.
The obesity could easily be solved by a database of food sales/transfers. Bread lines are the answer. They're a good thing.
Indeed. It’s the same way with Covid-19. They could have any number, or in some cases none, conditions where the addition of the viral infection becomes the thing that pushes them over the line. Unfortunately, it has become political to argue about what killed them at that point. In many ways it reminds me of the “pre existing condition” crap that was sufficiently abused that Obamacare, which promised to put a stop to it, was welcomed by many.
Topic for another day, but I have believed for a long time now that insurance is not the proper financial model for funding healthcare. Its a left over from the WW2 era as a hiring enticement during wage freezes (people should have told Uncle to eff off back then) that now consumes roughly 1/3 of medical expenditures and is the backbone of how the system is literally a racket, as in racketeering.
Fess
Well-Known Member
B00ger, I discovered that I had unwittingly posted incorrect information a few days ago in a response to a post by noway2. That most recent post was just to set the record straight. Noway2 was right, I was wrong.
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I am genuinely surprised by the large number of unexplained deaths.
No more masks.