Competitive Shooting with Robert Vogel, Not Just a Game.

I have often thought they should run a "blind" stage or two. One shooter at a time, no walk through, no briefing other rounds per target, unlimited, put the stage behind a solid wall with a door. On the buzzer open the door and start banging, game it on the fly if you can.

Range safety would be the BIG issue, but it should be manageable.
 
Shooting powder puff loads on a square range teaches nothing about using full house defense loads in a REAL shoot out.
BUT...... If you'll sign up for one of my courses I'll teach you how to survive those cardboard targets, sign up at this link....
We accept MasterCard and Visa..... NO personal checks..(wonder why??).....
 
Charlie R said:
I have often thought they should run a "blind" stage or two. One shooter at a time, no walk through, no briefing other rounds per target, unlimited, put the stage behind a solid wall with a door. On the buzzer open the door and start banging, game it on the fly if you can.

Range safety would be the BIG issue, but it should be manageable.
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David Bramble occasionally runs his IDPA match at PDHSC (south Raleigh) with one or more blind stages. Just did one this week I think.

Blind stages are fun.

So is shooting stages in the dark with lights or night sights, and very educational if you have never tried it.
 
I don't know PDHSC. What is the club name and are the matches open or club members only. I would drive for that.
 
I used to run an entire six-stage match blind. The biggest problem is getting the competitors to keep their mouths shut and not reveal details about the stages. Lots of fun, tho.
 
Bailey Boat said:
Shooting powder puff loads on a square range teaches nothing about using full house defense loads in a REAL shoot out.
BUT...... If you'll sign up for one of my courses I'll teach you how to survive those cardboard targets, sign up at this link....
We accept MasterCard and Visa..... NO personal checks..(wonder why??).....
Click to expand...

Yeah, Bob Vogel doesn't know anything about this subject. In this video he is clearly terrible when switching to "full house defense loads" and as a cop I'm sure he's never been in any tense firearms related situation.

 
Participating in competition improves your skills with a handgun, that can't be a bad thing. I can only ID two things from a competition environment that will translate to negatives IRL: The 180 rule and the end of a string. In a match we tend to look in just one direction for targets and stop everything when we shoot the last one, then unload and show clear. Those aren't great habits to adopt. But Mr Vogel sums it up well "... overall the benefits of competitive shooting far outweigh any potential negatives."
 
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Shooting powder puff loads on a square range teaches nothing about using full house defense loads in a REAL shoot out.
BUT...... If you'll sign up for one of my courses I'll teach you how to survive those cardboard targets, sign up at this link....
We accept MasterCard and Visa..... NO personal checks..(wonder why??).....
Click to expand...

Clearly shooting quickly and accurately have absolutely nothing to do with shooting in the "real world". We would all be better off staying home and posting negative comments about competition shooting on shooting forums to improve our mall ninja status. After all, keyboard commandos clearly know more about shooting than those who actually shoot.

When the real life bad-asses at Bragg need someone to teach them to shoot faster and more accurately, they hire folks like Vogel, Leatham, and Jarrett. I think a few of those guys might have had a chance or two to prove the validity of these techniques over the last 16 years. Just sayin'...
 
BUT

FULL HOUSE LOADEZ!!!


Nobody could shoot those. No. Bo. dy.
 
God, it's easy to pull you guys out of the woodwork with one comment. So which "trainer" are you worshipping this week?? How much money have you donated to their cause??? Why can't you practice on your own?? You actually need someone to talk you through it??
 
Catfish said:
I can only ID two things from a competition environment that will translate to negatives IRL: The 180 rule and the end of a string. In a match we tend to look in just one direction for targets and stop everything when we shoot the last one, then unload and show clear.
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I have not been involved in a shooting so I wouldnt know exactly. But how many compettiton shooters have been in a shooting? I am will to bet the 180 rule and unload show clear will be the absolute last things on ones mind
 
Bailey Boat said:
God, it's easy to pull you guys out of the woodwork with one comment. So which "trainer" are you worshipping this week?? How much money have you donated to their cause??? Why can't you practice on your own?? You actually need someone to talk you through it??
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What do you have against shooting instructors?
 
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God, it's easy to pull you guys out of the woodwork with one comment. So which "trainer" are you worshipping this week?? How much money have you donated to their cause??? Why can't you practice on your own?? You actually need someone to talk you through it??
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I think you may have me pegged wrong. I am the last guy in the world who is interested in buying James Yeager Tactical Deep Concealment Panties (TDCP)... or whatever the tactical mall ninjas are buying these days. I have only taken one shooting class in the last 10 years, although I have taught several (I would like to take some, but generally can't afford the ones that I feel would genuinely help me). I am passionate about doing things as well as I can, and am in awe of people who are the best at what they do. Guys like Bob Vogel and Daniel Horner are absolutely the best at what they do. I enjoy watching them practice their craft just as a mid-level college player enjoys watching Lebron James play basketball.

I don't get to shoot as much as before marriage and kid, but still manage to get to the range a couple times a week to practice "on my own". Just as with learning any other skill in the world, having someone to talk you through the learning process can often make huge differences in the learning curve. We all have to decide for ourselves whether we will gain more value from spending our dollars and time on ammo to practice or if attending a class will pay bigger dividends in skill gained. I generally lean toward the ammo side of that equation, but don't begrudge others who seek training (as long as they are not seeking training from some tactical douchebag who will do them more harm than good...Voda comes to mind).

I quit playing I Don't Practice Anymore matches several years ago because I didn't enjoy being told what would not work in the "real world" by a bunch of fat accountants who couldn't shoot themselves in the foot or walk up a flight of stairs in the "real world". While the value of competition shooting in defensive situations is debatable, I think there are tons of examples of guys employing the skills learned from competitive shooters in far-off lands and at home. Nearly without exception, these guys who I have spoken with were very glad to have gotten instruction from guys like Bob Vogel.
 
pistolshooter77 said:
I think you may have me pegged wrong. I am the last guy in the world who is interested in buying James Yeager Tactical Deep Concealment Panties (TDCP)... or whatever the tactical mall ninjas are buying these days. I have only taken one shooting class in the last 10 years, although I have taught several (I would like to take some, but generally can't afford the ones that I feel would genuinely help me). I am passionate about doing things as well as I can, and am in awe of people who are the best at what they do. Guys like Bob Vogel and Daniel Horner are absolutely the best at what they do. I enjoy watching them practice their craft just as a mid-level college player enjoys watching Lebron James play basketball.

I don't get to shoot as much as before marriage and kid, but still manage to get to the range a couple times a week to practice "on my own". Just as with learning any other skill in the world, having someone to talk you through the learning process can often make huge differences in the learning curve. We all have to decide for ourselves whether we will gain more value from spending our dollars and time on ammo to practice or if attending a class will pay bigger dividends in skill gained. I generally lean toward the ammo side of that equation, but don't begrudge others who seek training (as long as they are not seeking training from some tactical douchebag who will do them more harm than good...Voda comes to mind).

I quit playing I Don't Practice Anymore matches several years ago because I didn't enjoy being told what would not work in the "real world" by a bunch of fat accountants who couldn't shoot themselves in the foot or walk up a flight of stairs in the "real world". While the value of competition shooting in defensive situations is debatable, I think there are tons of examples of guys employing the skills learned from competitive shooters in far-off lands and at home. Nearly without exception, these guys who I have spoken with were very glad to have gotten instruction from guys like Bob Vogel.
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Great post, and you need to start shooting IDPA with us over our way. We have accountants, but they aren't fat, and they'll be asking you how best to shoot a stage. @dmarbell
:D
 
Mike Overlay said:
I have not been involved in a shooting so I wouldnt know exactly. But how many compettiton shooters have been in a shooting? I am will to bet the 180 rule and unload show clear will be the absolute last things on ones mind
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I'm sure you've heard stories of the old timer cops finding empty shell casings in their pockets after a shooting. Stowing their brass was the last thing on their mind but you default to your training.
 
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Catfish said:
I'm sure you've heard stories of the old timer cops finding empty shell casings in their pockets after a shooting. Stowing their brass was the last thing on their mind but you default to your training.
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That's because they were drunk. Ah, the good old days.
 
Dayum! Hubris much?
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Touche' dmarbell. I certainly didn't mean to come across as an arrogant prick, but I guess it does sort of read that way. I also didn't mean to imply that I am an expert in "real world" tactics either, far from it.

and you need to start shooting IDPA with us over our way. We have accountants, but they aren't fat, and they'll be asking you how best to shoot a stage.
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Fieldgrade: thanks for the invite. While I will respectfully decline, but based on other posts that I have seen on this forum from you, I think we would get along just fine. I would probably be the one asking you guys how to shoot stages. I just find that I am more at home at USPSA or 3-gun matches (although I only shoot about one match a month these days).
 
Bailey Boat said:
God, it's easy to pull you guys out of the woodwork with one comment. So which "trainer" are you worshipping this week?? How much money have you donated to their cause??? Why can't you practice on your own?? You actually need someone to talk you through it??
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^^^^^^ The troll is strong with this one........
 
Bailey Boat said:
God, it's easy to pull you guys out of the woodwork with one comment. So which "trainer" are you worshipping this week?? How much money have you donated to their cause??? Why can't you practice on your own?? You actually need someone to talk you through it??
Click to expand...


Because someone posts a video of a world champion shooter in the competition section of a shooting forum, that means "nobody can practice on their own!!
 
pistolshooter77 said:
Touche' dmarbell. I certainly didn't mean to come across as an arrogant prick, but I guess it does sort of read that way. I also didn't mean to imply that I am an expert in "real world" tactics either, far from it.
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No issues, we call them like we see them. Adjectives can usually get an otherwise good post quickly into trouble!

My pistol shooting experience is limited. But I can tell you from my viewpoint at IDPA shoots I've attended, the top 2/3 of the shooters would perform better under street conditions than 90% of the general population. Learning to draw, acquire the first target and then subsequent targets, firing on the move, and reloading on the clock are all excellent skills.

I have had help from members of this board on issues I have with learning to shoot, and it has advanced my training significantly. I also have watched hundreds of Youtube videos of very good shooters and gleaned tips that have helped me. Vogel's video on grip comes to mind. I had one-on-one training with a couple of very good shooters, too.

I am trying to do the opposite pistol-wise that I did with golf. Forty-plus years ago, I taught myself to play golf and I've sucked ever since. I tried to change this with all shooting. I took a lesson at Deep River when I first started shooting clays. I got good trapshooters to watch me shoot when I started shooting trap. The one lesson I took was from a shooter who now has a little over 250,000 REGISTERED rounds of competitive trap! I took skeet lessons from an instructor, a member of this board, who trained a rookie All-American.

@fieldgrade You can see why I ask so many questions? LOL

So, I agree that no video training, and no live training if not followed up with practice, will get anyone where they want to go. But, for my money, when guys like Vogel, Vickers, Brevit, Boyette, and a few on this board that I won't call out without permission, tell you something you should at least listen.
 
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