Defending Property



In the context of your statement I want to play it out a bit.


I think the perspective as written of your statement is based on knowing intent before / during the theft. That is something I cannot judge or be aware of. As always, the self-defense rule I share with my students is the AOJ rule. Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy.


Ability Can the person physically cause me great/serious bodily harm and/or death?
Opportunity Does the person(s) have the opportunity to cause me great/serious bodily harm and/or death? Any barriers (time or distance) in place to prevent the suspect’s actions?
Jeopardy Is anyone in jeopardy of great/serious bodily harm and/or death if I do not take immediate action to stop the threat?


Environment 1. Robber is on my property in an out storage shed steeling my property. I hear them and approach.


In this situation the first actions I take is call 911 and get law enforcement on its way and keep my phone on speaker with 911 until LE arrive. I explain the situation and my description ONLY! I do not describe the robber even if I can. This information is given in a face to face with the officer. Second, I would not allow myself to be known to the robber. I know the robber has the ability to harm me because I know what's in that shed. My next step is to interpose myself between loved ones and the robber in a defensive advantage position with the goal of route denial. I want to avoid interjecting an opportunity for confrontation. But knowing what’s in that shed, my defensive angles (my property, my battlespace), I should keep some distance and allow an escape route. I say this because I know a trapped person has a higher chance for the fight mode to be triggered. Unless I am within 30 feet or less, the robber with any normal blunt object is a danger. But again, I do not know what jeopardy I am in based on the few factors at this time. I would not know if they are armed or not. If they exit with nothing in the hands I would not even try to restrain them. I would not even expose myself to make the robber aware I know what’s going on. When law enforcement shows up I would let them handle the person(s).


Environment 2. No family home, robber is in my house steeling my property and I come home.


This situation is very different then environment 1. As I make entrance with our without my family, I enter my home and (I do not notice a forced entry), I enter and see a person in my home. I will go to 100% defense mode. This is because the robber has the ability to harm me and the opportunity also. The only unanswered question is the jeopardy rule. Based on the robber’s reaction to me that question will be answered.


Environment 3. Family and I are home, the perp’s perform a home invasion.


The reason for the home invasion is not a factor. But my challenge and interaction will be brought to the floor of the courts. I do not want to over react like this situation. In a home invasion the state has answered and framed my ability, opportunity and jeopardy rules in NCGS § 14-51.2.(B).



Again, not knowing the robbers “intent” I do not want to place myself in any situation that elevates. Every way we can look at a self-defense situation has a negative impact on ones life. When the dust settles and the law has the rest of my life to pick out every detail. I do not want to place my life in the judgement of others. I want to react within the rules and keep my freedom. The ability, opportunity and jeopardy are three great filters to pan a situation out to my advantage. Nothing I own is worth my freedom.


John

This is all with in the current legal frame we live in today. You're right, as the law and society view it, I would not shoot to defend my property.

But, why and when did society move to this model? Like I said in other posts, 1940's and back, if you hurt or killed a thief, the law did not bother you.
 
This is all with in the current legal frame we live in today. You're right, as the law and society view it, I would not shoot to defend my property.

But, why and when did society move to this model? Like I said in other posts, 1940's and back, if you hurt or killed a thief, the law did not bother you.

The change came from the federal government in its reaction to the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

The underlying tone from the fed was we can not fight communism globally and act like the beacon of freedom, when back home we except segregation. The Soviet model had less racism then ours in the "join our side pamphlet".

I also think its false positive reinforcement. Or a rose colored rearview mirror aspect.
 
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We don't, if the value of human life is equal to my property, we are back before 1865. That's not happening. Nor should it.
I said above that I don’t put any real value on the thief’s life, certainly not as much as my stuff. Unlike many here, I also don’t believe that a vengeful sky wizard gave a commandment about not killing. I don’t think the gods or the universe cares, as it all gets recycled repeatedly.

I would gladly go back to some of the “lesser values” of the bygone years. We are not better off today for our “progressive” views.
 
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nothing i have bought is worth enough to die over, the criminal needs to keep that in mind.
if he comes in my house or property & my family(i include my dogs in this) is there he is coming to do
someone bodily harm to get what he wants.
 
We don't, if the value of human life is equal to my property, we are back before 1865. That's not happening. Nor should it.

I agree. I do not even consider killing someone for taking my stuff as long as their actions do not put an innocent life in danger.

However, we may ask another question from another point of view. If someone knew that they were likely to be killed legally for stealing stuff, who would be the person who does not value human life? They would not value their own life enough to keep their hands off another person's stuff. Why should a victim value the life of the crook more than the crook values his own life?
 
However, we may ask another question from another point of view. If someone knew that they were likely to be killed legally for stealing stuff, who would be the person who does not value human life? They would not value their own life enough to keep their hands off another person's stuff. Why should a victim value the life of the crook more than the crook values his own life?

Just because someone's values suck, does not force you or me to agree or lower our values.

John
 
We don't, if the value of human life is equal to my property, we are back before 1865. That's not happening. Nor should it.

I have to disagree with you on this, I place no value on the life of a thief. People steal, cheat, and lie because they can get away with, as a society there is no real consequences to being a thief.
 
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If someone is running out of my house or shed with some of my property, I would not shoot them. If I'm in the house and they break in to steal property, they are getting shot. If they are physically trying to take property from me while I'm out and about such as my watch, money, etc, they are getting shot.
 
The way I look at this is that if a person is bold enough to come onto my property to steal then that person is a threat to me and my family. They made a choice to enter MY property, and steal MY belongings. I work hard for what I have, and sacrifice my time, and body to EARN it. Insurance doesn't give me the time, and effort back. If they give me anything at all.
 
I distinguish between on my property and in my house. Someone stealing stuff outside my house is quite different from someone inside my house or trying to break into my house. He/she is not much of a threat to me while stealing my car from my driveway but is a threat to me when he/she tries to enter my home by force while I am inside.
 
If we cant kill a thief for stealing our stuff, can we at least shoot em in the leg?

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I hope you are joking ... if you feel the situation requires shooting I look at it as “the leg” is just one step above a “warning shot”.

First, actually hitting a moving leg while under stress is not that easy (hence the bigger center mass area that the bad guy isn’t able to juke as easy is taught) and you give the bad guy a chance to fire back ... no es bueño. Second, if do nail a POS theft in the leg you might create more problems down the road from a cripple that will be on the teet of society for th rest of their life to the idiot coming back at you for revenge. Sorry, to say it but anything worth shooting is worth shooting right ... and overkill is underrated!
 
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One distinction not already made much here is the difference in an individual taking a man’s life, vs. the State. Individuals are permitted to do so only under very limited circumstances. It was that way in colonial days. It was that way in the Old Testament. In the old West, they did execute for property crimes, but it was done in the town square, after a trial. I have read that sometimes the Texas Rangers would do it on the frontier when no judge was available, but it was still a formal execution by agents of the State.
 
Texas has it right.
This came up on here once before and someone got me to looking into it. Texas will allow you to defend yourself against "robbery". I thought that meant taking stuff, but robbery is a crime of theft and can be classified as larceny by force or by threat of force. The elements of the crime of robbery include the use of force or intimidation and all the elements of the crime of larceny. The penalty for robbery is always more severe than for larceny. Once you understand the difference, you can see that the Texas statutes aren't much different from most anywhere else.
 
Like @BatteryOaksBilly I awoke to find a young guy standing at the foot of my bed in our upstairs bedroom. The kids were both right across the hall. I jumped out of bed and strong-armed him out of the house while my wife called the police. Before she finished the call, he was back in the house downstairs. This time I went down armed to find him sitting on the couch. Why did I not shoot him? He never made a threatening move and was clearly heavily intoxicated. I held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. They took him out to the squad car and then he decided to fight. He was charged and went to trial. As it turned out, he had a very good lawyer and a very prominent dad and got off with probation. A guy came up to me after the trial and said, "You should have shot him." But on balance, in that specific case, I feel I did the right thing. It's always situational and you never know how the "legal" system is going to act (oh yeah, this was also in good old Maryland).
 
I hope you are joking ... if you feel the situation requires shooting I look at it as “the leg” is just one step above a “warning shot”.

First, actually hitting a moving leg while under stress is not that easy (hence the bigger center mass area that the bad guy isn’t able to juke as easy is taught) and you give the bad guy a chance to fire back ... no es bueño. Second, if do nail a POS theft in the leg you might create more problems down the road from a cripple that will be on the teet of society for th rest of their life to the idiot coming back at you for revenge. Sorry, to say it but anything worth shooting is worth shooting right ... and overkill is underrated!
Yes, it was a joke. If the need ever arises for me to shoot someone, the goal will be that they not survive (to testify against me).

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If I came home to find someone taking all my stuff out of my house, I would help him load it right after I made him a sandwich. Then of course I’d point out to him the few things he missed.

Some of you are just plain lost in your feelings.
 
If I came home to find someone taking all my stuff out of my house, I would help him load it right after I made him a sandwich. Then of course I’d point out to him the few things he missed.

Some of you are just plain lost in your feelings.

That sounds about like what my Lab would do except the maggot would have to make her a sandwich.


That does raise the question of what is allowed if you come home to find someone already inside. I suppose the law would dictate that you do not go in with guns blazing but rather back off and call 911 in most cases.
 
That sounds about like what my Lab would do except the maggot would have to make her a sandwich.


That does raise the question of what is allowed if you come home to find someone already inside. I suppose the law would dictate that you do not go in with guns blazing but rather back off and call 911 in most cases.

NC law does not and i posted the statue that covers this question in this topic.
 
I went back and found it. Thanks. I do have a question about why you should not describe the person stealing your stuff. Is it because the defense lawyers might give you grief later on if your description is not perfect?
 
I've met plenty of folks whose value as a human is lower than a free Chinese made NRA membership pocket knife; hell, lots of folks have negative value as humans. If all you do is take, there will come a time when all you have will be taken.

I realize in the course of human existence, some will pick thief as an occupation. Police, firemen, arborists, missionaries, gas station attendants, cab drivers, and hookers all accept that their occupation could very well result in their demise and have resolved those fears however they do in pursuit of said occupation, and I expect thieves to embrace that same ideology.

And good luck getting insurance to replace your Siberian Husky, 8 years worth of music created on a PC, that violin that has been in your family for 4 generations, or your great grandmother's engagement ring you gave your wife. Lord knows, it would be a damn shame to deprive the world of a thieving POS that will never do anything but be a thieving POS, well, aside from impregnating several women that will likely birth a few thieving POSs (of which, taxpayers will be expected to subsidize said child rearing while POS progeny is provided with also tax subsidized cable and medical care while in prison).
 
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I went back and found it. Thanks. I do have a question about why you should not describe the person stealing your stuff. Is it because the defense lawyers might give you grief later on if your description is not perfect?

I have a personal theory and its this (Over the phone / 911, I want LE to know who he good guy(s) is/are.) So I describe me and my situation since I am on site. But this is my theory only.
 
So if society doesn’t want me to kill a thief, shouldn’t society reimburse me for any property that is stolen?

Think a little about the implications of what you are asking. It gets real complicated. I do not think you want to go there.
 
I do not consider reparations to be a legitimate discussion.

Do you want the government to be a big insurance company? I do not want any more intrusions into my personal life by the government. I would rather deal with private insurance companies that operate for a profit rather than with a government monopoly. I am sure the far left would like this even more than they would like reparations.
 
Think a little about the implications of what you are asking. It gets real complicated. I do not think you want to go there.
Maybe part of the new green deal plan but...

I never thought it was workable for several reasons, but thought the discussion about what is essentially an unfounded social obligation might be interesting.

Personally I prefer a solution where criminals are punished rather than incarcerated. I’m really digging what 5G will allow for tracking with an embedded device. It’ll make ankle monitors obsolete and the state doesn’t have to pay for the prisoners care. Building in a taser function would be the cherry on top, but that’s a bridge too far even for me.
 
This came up on here once before and someone got me to looking into it. Texas will allow you to defend yourself against "robbery". I thought that meant taking stuff, but robbery is a crime of theft and can be classified as larceny by force or by threat of force. The elements of the crime of robbery include the use of force or intimidation and all the elements of the crime of larceny. The penalty for robbery is always more severe than for larceny. Once you understand the difference, you can see that the Texas statutes aren't much different from most anywhere else.

“Texas is different. In Texas, one can use deadly force not just to protect a person, but also to protect personal property, including to “retrieve stolen property at night,” during “criminal mischief in the nighttime” and even to prevent someone who is fleeing immediately after a theft during the night or a burglary or robbery, so long as the individual “reasonably” thinks the property cannot be protected by other means.”
 
I can only speak for myself and this is how I feel:

The words "you're", "you", and "y'all" refer to the the bad guy(s).

If you're stealing something from my household or other premises and you're in possession of that something, it simply means that we're not home or present at the location we have a right to be in.

In other words, if we're home and you come through a door or window with unknown intentions, including burglary, you/y'all will be deemed intruder(s) and a fear for our lives will exist within everyone in my household therefore creating a defensive action with the utilization of firearms directed at you/y'all.

Now if I'm driving up the driveway and I see you or y'all carrying the goods out the door, I'll do what I can to get a good identification, call the law, and follow you the best I can and allow you or y'all to live another day.
 
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