I know, its an msn story, but figured some here might find it interesting.
Drone Swarm at Fort Irwin
- Thread starter ProfMagoo(ret)
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I know, its an msn story, but figured some here might find it interesting.
OP
georgel
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People say EMP, like it's a bad thing.
Let's consider which country would have the capacity and capability to quickly produce functional swarm drones my the millions.
Also, let's not rule out systems being hacked.
I remember years ago when some of us would discuss the possibilities, many would say it would never happen. But, those of us that understood the technology feared it the most, because we knew it could happen..
Let's consider which country would have the capacity and capability to quickly produce functional swarm drones my the millions.
Also, let's not rule out systems being hacked.
I remember years ago when some of us would discuss the possibilities, many would say it would never happen. But, those of us that understood the technology feared it the most, because we knew it could happen..
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You won't be able to hit these drones with a shotgun. Amature drones can do 100mph plus, the gov probably breaks the 200mph mark. You won't see them coming unfortunately.
Fastballs don't do loop de loops.
It's not hard to defeat. The article acts like "all hope is lost" we are "doomed" the Military is at a loss. Get out of town.
This problem was solved a long time ago with barge jamming.
Here is one open document to enjoy.
And some other fun stuff.
antidronegun.antidroneprice.com
Its not a big deal.
Some of the promotional on this topic is to let the adversary invest big $$$ in this weapon, and not on more lethal options.
john
This problem was solved a long time ago with barge jamming.
Here is one open document to enjoy.
US10623132B2 - Barrage jammer with contoured amplitude - Google Patents
The present invention is a barrage jammer with contoured amplitude and an associated method for barrage jamming with contoured amplitude. In a standard prior art barrage jammer, the amplitude of the RF signal is independent from the ambient spectral environment. Alternatively, in a...
patents.google.com
And some other fun stuff.
Counter Measures Against Drones Jammer Drone Frequency Spectrum Jammer_XindVision Anti Drone Gun
antidronegun.antidroneprice.com
Its not a big deal.
Some of the promotional on this topic is to let the adversary invest big $$$ in this weapon, and not on more lethal options.
john
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OP
I shudder to think how many hours I played the arcade version of this (and asteroids).
Does jamming do any good against autonomous drones? I don’t think so. Remote controlled certainly, but autonomous drones done need radio. Sophisticated ones would even be able to overcome GOS jamming.
Are they autonomous? GPS more likely, that signal can be jammed also
I believe they are capable of both. I know it can and has been done, and I would be very surprised if our tax money wasn’t buying that capability. The swarming behavior requires close range communication between the drones of course. But find any person at map location X and blow up right next to them? Or check face recognition first for this person and then blow up? Easily autonomous. Even google maps has enough landmarks to navigate visually, especially from the air. And the maps for the route can be downloaded out of the jamming area.
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Sooo you’re saying we should stock up on 3” & 3.5” goose loads?
backwoodsshooter
there’s always a method to the madness
am i reading the article right?
they posted a piece yesterday about a training exercise 3 years ago?
either way, autonomous or not, encrypted or not, they can be jammed.
now, unless the flight plan doesn’t require a compass, GPS, or a radio signal (free flight, most of the times one way no recovery) there really ain’t much to do about them.
they posted a piece yesterday about a training exercise 3 years ago?
either way, autonomous or not, encrypted or not, they can be jammed.
now, unless the flight plan doesn’t require a compass, GPS, or a radio signal (free flight, most of the times one way no recovery) there really ain’t much to do about them.
If they aren’t using radio of any kind how can they be jammed? Inertial and/or visual landmark recognition for navigation. Face recognition for target id. Sure they’ll have GPS but they can function just fine without, say in large buildings for example (or when GPS is jammed).
All well within readily available consumer technology.
I suppose a strong enough EMP like signal could disrupt or damage one but who has that? And if I did am I willing to fry everything else around also?
And let’s say they can be jammed. Other than .mil, who has that capability? If you did, you can’t leave it on all the time (it’s a giant radio beacon demanding attention). So you have to have it and have enough warning to know you need to turn it on. And if you do, they send backup when the drones back off (you probably didn’t disable the whole swarm because if you waited that long you’re dead) or they lose contact with them. And if there is a swarm attacking odds are there is a stand-off recon drone higher up that you can’t see. Maybe it has an air to ground missile even.
Realize that these are military weapons not DJI drones. With effectively unlimited budgets behind them. They will be designed for RF silence so that other militaries can’t sense them that way, to operate in jammed environments (because our mil can and will be jamming, and will expect opfors to do so), and therefore will be/are (literally) overkill for any use against non-mil opposition.
I am positive that at least the US (and probably NATO by extension) and China are at or beyond what I just outlined, because it isn’t hard technically and it would be suicidal not to develop such an obvious and game-changing capability, along with countermeasures (I am guessing this will be one of the first practical applications of lasers, and least for defending vehicles or fixed locations - drones just aren’t that tough).
Well, yes, of course. It certainly isn’t a joke. A few ounces of C4 in a $1000 drone is a CHEAP guided missile.
Or just a few grams. Watch this. Well worth the 8 minutes but very disturbing because it seems almost inevitable.
Watch all the way to end, and realize this was made 3 years ago. “Fiction” but done as a prediction/warning.
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backwoodsshooter
there’s always a method to the madness
curious if you read the last part of my post?
but i will add, i don’t see why it wouldn’t work, the camera and mapping flight.
and you’d be surprise how little knowledge and equipment it takes to create and run a jammer.
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Yes, jammers are pretty simple if you know what you need to jam. But they still paint a big target on your location.
And we are talking .mil here primarily, so spread spectrum and freq hopping are things. Wide band jamming is possible but more power, bigger target, etc…
Radios are mostly software now, so other than being limited to frequencies that work ok with the physical antenna, it isn’t that hard to make them do fancy stuff.
To be effective, drones must have some sort of sensory input. Even drones with onboard control systems need to be responsive to their environment.
If they need external signals of some kind, either remote controlling signals or active guidance signals, then those can be jammed.
If they have facial recognition capability, then the visual sensors can be jammed or spoofed.
If they have infrared tracking capabilities, then those can be jammed or spoofed.
If they use sonic sensors to map their surroundings, then they can be jammed.
A ballistic drone isn't much of a threat. We have better systems to deliver credible force on target than blind drones that cannot respond to their environment.
The government developed an anti-drone gun back in 1956! Some scientist named Dr. Russell Marvin was involved. Knocked the targets right out of the sky. I think it used sound to destabilize the target until it crashed.
Now you are just changing the argument. Jamming is radio frequency stuff. Jamming a camera? Seriously? Other than a radar controlling a laser painting the drone to overload the camera (only if the camera is pointed at the laser), I have no idea how to do that. Do you?
A directional camera is not at all like, or jammable like, a radio with an omnidirectional (mostly) antenna.
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NCLivingBrit
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If I was fielding this, my first wave would use launched/air deployed unpowered drone shells/gliders on ballistic courses, armoured and hardened to jamming and EMP as much as is practical, using optical and non GPS navigation and would be programmed for terminal guidance to detonate as close to the emitters that are producing the jamming signal as possible.
Then you send in a larger wave of cheaper, unhardened powered agile drones to explode on the now less protected targets.
Then you send in a larger wave of cheaper, unhardened powered agile drones to explode on the now less protected targets.
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OP
Out of curiosity, where are you getting the 3YO date? If one links to the "NTC Lead 6 Twitter" it appears to have been posted on 11SEP 2022.
NTC Lead 6
@NTCLead6
·
Sep 11
At sunrise this morning a swarm of 40 quadcopters all equipped with cameras, MILES, and lethal munition capable launched in advance of 11th ACR’s attack on a prepared defense by 1AD. Drones will be as important in the first battle of the next war as artillery is today.
Yep. Easy to have 3 larger drones a mile away in 3 different directions triangulate the precise location of any transmitters (ham, drone RC, jammers, even the harmonics emitted by nearly all _receivers_) for targeting stand-off weapons, including optically/inertially navigated attack drones.
CarolinaColtCollector
It’s never a “War Crime” the first time.
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Buffleheads cruse at 90 or so, the stuffed one in my room wasn’t happy about it.
backwoodsshooter
there’s always a method to the madness
Ummm...yes, jamming a camera.
Light is just another part of the electromagnetic spectrum. Optical sensors are easily foiled and damaged with lasers. And yes, I do know how such is done, because lasers are most excellent for directed scanning. You don't have to maintain a tiny laser beam stead on a tiny optical sensor over a distance. You can pump out whatever power and frequences you need and scan the target with the laser.
In fact, we have laser tracking systems which do just that....scan and track.
And a "directional camera" isn't much use if it isn't pointable in use. That, in itself, makes it vulnerable to defensive laser technologies.
OP
No problem -- wasn't trying to bust your chops. I try not to get caught by old-news-cast-as-new-news so if I'd missed that in the OP, I wanted to know how.
I read the article as they've doing this for some time, perhaps now stepping things up. My stepson did a rotation through NTC in later 2019 (before Covid) and I don't recall him mentioning drone swarms.
Sure, but again changing the premises of the discussion. At least I thought this was about how the average Joe could try to defend against something like this - hence shotguns and relatively simple/cheap RF jammers. Nothing like what you are talking about is affordable by, available to, or buildable by average Joe, even though I understand they exist in US .mil context. Which kind of proves my point once again. They have drones we can’t stop and countermeasures than can stop any drones that aren’t .mil.
georgel
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And the ball is required to fly in a very small window, from which it gets hit...
Anti-drone drones. Coordinated to swarm and attack other drone and explode in contact or close proximity.
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Changing WHAT premisis of this discussion? The OP just posted a link about drones being used over Fort Irwin and it went from there.
How the "Average Joe" could defend is pretty darned limited on many military weapons systems. Certainly the average Joe would reasonably be expected to fair a bit better against a sudden drone attack than a sudden F-15 attack.
Drone use against citizens of the country would more likely be intelligence/coordination as opposed to actual physical attack anyway. There are other measures which can be used to counter such use which doesn't necessarily involve physically taking drones out.