Evolution

BatteryOaksBilly

BatteryOaksBilly

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Just thought I'd share this. First of all please accept it for what it is. It IS what I have decided to try for a while. It ISN'T something to try to sway any of you or something that I feel I have to Qualify. Just some food for thought after seeing Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn talking today about Keeping Skills Sharp on YT. PLEASE, watch this short video.
I have decided to change my personal sidearms for a while. I want to share with you what my Personal Evolution has been since I started carrying Legally in S.C. in 1976. If nothing else perhaps it will give some insight into the way Old Folks can rationalize things they want to do. my carry habits since 1976 are as follows:
1976...qualified with and carried for about 6 years a Colt 1911 of some variation. Always .45 ACP
1982ish....After being in touch with Evan Marshall I was convinced that I should Always carry
two guns. I carried 2 S&W J Frames. They were loaded with 160 Gr. Hard Cast SW.
1985ish....I carried a BHP with 115 Gr Ball and a J Frame with the above load
1992ish....I carried 2 Colt Agents with the same above load.
1996....I carried 2 G26s loaded with Ball.
2006...I carried 2 Charter Arms 44s loaded with 240 Gr. bullets loaded to 800 FPS
2007...Back to the Glock 26s
2015....Made the transition to two G43s...loaded with Ball
2018...until Now....2 Sig 365s or Sig 938s or 2 Ruger LCPs............ all with Ball
2021....2 Extremely Small .38 revolvers...9 ounces....Loaded with @Etruett .38 Special Loads.
230 Grain Full Wadcutters loaded to 800+ FPS. The mass and Velocity of .45 230 Ball.

The point of this is to try not to get locked into any One platform. Learn and Master to the best of Your abilities. Things I know:
1. The ONLY thing that matters in handgun ammo for personal protection is. Placement and Penetration. You must get to something Vital...Hydraulics [Pump] or Electrics [Brain-Spine]. A 250 pounder turned sideways requires Deep Penetration to get to something.
2. Your choice of protection should fit You. Don't worry about caliber. Do Not even Consider over penetration. This is not even a statistical blip.
3. What ever you choose..Try to get the same gun in .22. This so you can shoot it All the time. My Carry Every Step and Shoot Every Day is a lifestyle I have chosen. You can get to where you need to be if you will give yourself 3 minutes a day. Not necessary to be all at once. 15 second increments will be fine. Practice PRESENTATION above all else.
4. Practice 10 yards and IN. Shoot at any distance you wish for entertainment But practice for The Worst.....
5. Remember Dry Fire Is Practice....Live Fire Is Verification.

That's all from this Old Man...........................Talk amongst yourselves
 
...and then there's The Wizard. :oops:



Seriously, something that I can add that seems consistent with what Billy has said about not being locked into one platform. My father always tinkered with a gun as soon as he got it, changed the grips, the sights, the trigger... wanted to make it fit his style. I am the opposite. I like to think that I can shoot a gun the way it was designed; it doesn't have to be altered to suit me, rather I will do what it takes to shoot it well. It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools!
 
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Most of the time I carry some kind of Glock, G17, G19, G22, G42, G43. Sometimes I carry J frame 38 or a LCP as a second gun. Other times I carry 2 J frame 38's or 2 LCP's. I would like to practice and become proficient with a 1911 45 ACP so I can feel comfortable to carry it. But, I have carried guns without a manual safety for so long, it will take a lot of training/practice to remember to click off the safety when I draw.
 
Geezer said:
I have carried guns without a manual safety for so long, it will take a lot of training/practice to remember to click off the safety when I draw.
Click to expand...
Me too Pard...the Point and Press guns have about ruined me.
Back to two DA Revolvers for me.........for a while.
 
I tend to carry a gun based on comfort In the way I carry. seems I tend to go with my colt 25 it's old and fits great in my pocket but if I'm headed to a place whare I feel like there might be more of a threat then I bump it up to the colt mustang 380 I feel like for me it's a mind thing I shoot them both great thanks to the time and wisdom of my friend's in the great state of sc and a few from nc you no who you are I'm a northerner whose been living my best life in the south thank you and thanks for the hospitality hears my three things guns family freedom
 
This gets back to it being the Indian and not the arrow. I would be respectful of Billy regardless of what he happens to be carrying at the moment. One of my favorite Instructors would tell us, this is the problem you have to solve. I'm going to show you what I think is the best way to solve it. You might find a better way for you, as long as you solve the problem.
Something else I learned is that in a real OMG moment, you're going to forget stuff, like safeties and you body isn't going to work right. That's one reason I don't recommend switching guns often, like daily or weekly. When it hits the fan your body is going to go for the gun IT remembers, because your brain is going to be tied up in the Oh God! moment. This is a hard point to get across, because people don't want to believe it..., until they've experienced it. The key is develop a habitual familiarity with the gun you carry. Train with it until it's second nature. The body can get confused if you're carrying a different gun every week, with a different manual of arms.
I have no problems with the effectiveness of a .38 revolver with wadcutters, especially the load he's talking about. A revolver is a dependable machine and may have certain advantages. If this is what Billy feels good about to solve the problem and he's effective, which I'm sure he is, more power to him. I have a slightly different take, but that's based on MY particular needs. Again, do what you want. But you have to solve the problem.

Now, to define the problem. Many don't actually understand the problems they should be trying to resolve. They have answers, but to the wrong problems...
 
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premise said:
6. Have enough ass or a good pair of suspenders to hold up breaches full of pistols.
šŸ˜„

Why the switch to .38 revolvers?
Click to expand...
Tiny, Light, Convenient, Familiar Platform....New 230 Grain Ammo. I am willing to Bet MY life on This New Ammo. I carry 2....NOT for capacity! The reason for always 2??? Murphy is Alive!
 
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Good stuff. I have carried a few different guns over the years, mostly Glocks, 19, 17, 43, 48, and a Taurus Titanium 38 for a few months (been many years ago on that one). I will not carry anything that I have to use a safety on. Point and press only for me. And ever since that dude got shot off of Old Concord Rd. years back, and the idgits blocked 85 (all within 5-7 miles of me, and the one road I travel daily for work) and started trying to yank people out of their cars, and setting stuff on fire from big rig trailers, I went from the 48 back to the 19 and have been there ever since, plus a AR pistol with me every where I go. I do practice presentation, sometimes daily, sometimes I might miss a day or two, but I still get it in. I also practice presentation and trigger press on a 5x5 inch target weekly with my Glock airsoft, from 12 feet away. All that has helped get me consistently down in the 1.4 to 1.5 second from concealment to one round to the head from 5 yards away, freestyle. Sometimes I can pull out a 1.3 something from concealment to one round to the head from three yards, ala the Wizard, which is my standard now for all things fast and accurate. Practice, then practice, then practice some more.

Sent from my T770B using Tapatalk
 
This is not original to me......A New shooter practices to Get shooting skills...A Good shooter practices to Hone his skills......A Master shooter practices a way of Life.

@Stick Man is one of our 2%ers. All get told.....only a few follow through.
 
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Thanks Billy. It's like the martial arts, taken very seriously, it becomes a way of life, and a journey. I take training very seriously. I don't really shoot much for fun anymore, but get satisfaction from doing drills and getting better, and seeing those results. And I thank you for all the advice, and new stuff you have taught/showed me. Like I've said before, that place you and RS have is a special place. It's not just the very nice range, but the vibe and wisdom/information that flows through there. I thank you sincerely for allowing me to be a part of that.
 
Twelve years of change, and Iā€™m not counting guns strictly for NPE/BUG purposes (an LCP that wouldnā€™t run and is long gone, and a P32 that does run and stuck around).

- SA Loaded (230 gr HST) to
- Glock 19 (124 gr HST) to
- Glock 35 (180 gr HST) to
- Glock 19 (124 gr HST) to
- Colt Commander (124 gr Golden Saber) to
- a pair of J-frames (3ā€ .357 and 1.875ā€ .38) to
- Sig P320-M17 (124 gr Punch)

The Sig, feature-wise, is an amalgamation of all my previous carry semi-autos. It has a shallow grip angle and a very positive thumb safety, but it also has a manageable 5lb striker trigger. The barrel length is ideal for leveraging the grip inward in a good AIWB holster. Benched, it is the most accurate carry gun Iā€™ve ever toted, holding an inch at 25 with the Punch 9mm from Federal.

It also came precut for the Romeo 1 Pro, which is a phenomenal carry optic (flicker-free and astigmatism friendly). Eyesight really forced my hand in this last stepā€”I sold the longer J-frame here because I could no longer resolve the irons. Itā€™s all red dots from here except pocket guns... which will get lasers.
 
Geezer said:
Most of the time I carry some kind of Glock, G17, G19, G22, G42, G43. Sometimes I carry J frame 38 or a LCP as a second gun. Other times I carry 2 J frame 38's or 2 LCP's. I would like to practice and become proficient with a 1911 45 ACP so I can feel comfortable to carry it. But, I have carried guns without a manual safety for so long, it will take a lot of training/practice to remember to click off the safety when I draw.
Click to expand...

I learned after some range and dry fire practice that I am NOT good at drawing, manipulating the safety and firing a 1911. Thatā€™s why I havenā€™t carried one for a long time, and probably wonā€™t carry either of my 2 new ones very often. I am much better with my DA/SA guns. But that doesnā€™t mean there isnā€™t a time and place for them. Just have to practice for some level of proficiency, and have them handy when it makes sense. Besides 45ACP is fun and Godā€™s caliber. So there will all be a place for it.
 
CZfool68 said:
I am NOT good at drawing, manipulating the safety and firing a 1911
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I have seen Dozens of people here, I mean people that Carry a safety gun, when using it in an unfamiliar event FAIL to disengage their safety.

We have a drill here called The Guatamalan Steak House Shoot. The person sits at a table up close, just like eating. Their gun is under a cloth napkin on the table. When they are ready they put their hands on the table...BUZZER!!!! They snatch the cloth off and pick up their blaster and go to work......
Now.....I don't know how many of you have Ever picked your gun up off a table....righties will have the safety Down on the table.....it is awkward as Helll.
The point and shoot guns Rule in this drill.......

This drill was devised by Col. Cooper to prepare guards he was instructing in South America. This was the accepted way to go to Supper there....gun on table...personal Condition Yellow.
This and The El Prez were used extensively in his training in those areas.
 
Great Thread!!
For my half penny, I have always tried to be fluid in my pistol selections.
Comfort then Caliber. My personal caliber judgements were generally based on the weight of the weapon.
With all that said I have had many years of training with weapons and with people that are non-firearm associated.
Massive list of things which can be a weapon that anyone can train to be deadly with it.
If you train enough with any given weapon for a long enough period of time you are likely to be quite effective.
I have been told many times that some of the luck of the living is just preparation to a moment.
 
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DangerRuss said:
@BatteryOaksBilly and @Etruett - Do you have more info on those projectiles and load data? That sounds really interesting.
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It is a 230gr solid WC. Pretty sure I got them from Batman Bullets. Designed for Bowling pin shooting. There is a little data out there but most is showing about 600-700 FPS out of a 7-8ā€ barrel. Have not shot mine over a chrono, but with the research I did, Iā€™m satisfied these are 850+ out of s 2ā€. .There are a lot of 38 +P loads available with this velocity, but thatā€™s with a 110gr bullet. I will have To check the charge but itā€™s a healthy dose of 2400. Wouldnā€™t recommend prolonged shooting in s J frame, but itā€™s not designed as a Sunday afternoon Target load. Itā€™s a threat stopper. Personally Iā€™ll take a flat face bullet over a HP anytime for defense. Too many things can keep a HP from performing like clothing, leather and even Sheetrock. I plan on taking a few of these to my buddyā€™s junkyard soon. Curious how they do with glass and doors
 
Badman Bullets does indeed sell these. I just ordered two sample packs of them. That was all They had available in the 230gr. Iā€™d be interested in load data myself if you remember, @Etruett. Iā€™ve shot these at BOBā€™s in Jerryā€™s 340pd and they were a handful. I think theyā€™d be a great pd round, but not something youā€™d make a regular habit of shooting.

www.badmanbullets.com

38 Caliber and 357 Caliber 230 Grain WC Hard Cast Lead Bullets | Badman Bullets

Discover the benefits of our 38 caliber 357 Caliber 230 grain WC hard cast lead bullets
www.badmanbullets.com www.badmanbullets.com
 
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I started with a good old Glock 19. Carried 124-147 gr HSTs, or critical duty. Sometimes Gold Dots. Whatever is available.

I then carried a PCR and a P01 for a brief time before settling on a P-07. I liked the action and feel of it.

I always had a little J frame for those days I needed to pocket carry.

But after my Atlanta scare I changed things up. I am not good enough with a jframe, and I donā€™t have the time and ammo these days to get good. I also realized that there were times I was guilty of not carrying due to not wanting to strap on a holster and deal with it.

So, I picked up an lcp 2 and love it. Shot it enough to trust it, but still need to work on accuracy. When ammo prices come down on .380 thatā€™s my plan.

I currently just have it loaded with FMJ rounds because thatā€™s what I had, but I also feel that in .380 a JhP might not have the gas to penetrate as I want. Times change and I get to test out more ā€œself defenseā€ rounds I may change.

As was mentioned up stream, itā€™s kinda everyoneā€™s own salvation they need to seek. Some people can change guns every day of the week and thatā€™s fine. But some need to just find what works and stick with it.

While it may be blaspheme to my CZ brethren, I may even go back to the Glock 19. I shot it a lot back in the day, and was pretty darn good with it. So if I get a chance to put the two beside one another I may switch back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
B00ger said:
I started with a good old Glock 19. Carried 124-147 gr HSTs, or critical duty. Sometimes Gold Dots. Whatever is available.

I then carried a PCR and a P01 for a brief time before settling on a P-07. I liked the action and feel of it.

I always had a little J frame for those days I needed to pocket carry.

But after my Atlanta scare I changed things up. I am not good enough with a jframe, and I donā€™t have the time and ammo these days to get good. I also realized that there were times I was guilty of not carrying due to not wanting to strap on a holster and deal with it.

So, I picked up an lcp 2 and love it. Shot it enough to trust it, but still need to work on accuracy. When ammo prices come down on .380 thatā€™s my plan.

I currently just have it loaded with FMJ rounds because thatā€™s what I had, but I also feel that in .380 a JhP might not have the gas to penetrate as I want. Times change and I get to test out more ā€œself defenseā€ rounds I may change.

As was mentioned up stream, itā€™s kinda everyoneā€™s own salvation they need to seek. Some people can change guns every day of the week and thatā€™s fine. But some need to just find what works and stick with it.

While it may be blaspheme to my CZ brethren, I may even go back to the Glock 19. I shot it a lot back in the day, and was pretty darn good with it. So if I get a chance to put the two beside one another I may switch back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I carry a LCPII as a backup, and carry ball in it. I wouldn't trust a JHP to penetrate enough. Kelly carries a G-42 with solids in it also.

Sent from my T770B using Tapatalk
 
georgel said:
This gets back to it being the Indian and not the arrow. I would be respectful of Billy regardless of what he happens to be carrying at the moment. One of my favorite Instructors would tell us, this is the problem you have to solve. I'm going to show you what I think is the best way to solve it. You might find a better way for you, as long as you solve the problem.
Something else I learned is that in a real OMG moment, you're going to forget stuff, like safeties and you body isn't going to work right. That's one reason I don't recommend switching guns often, like daily or weekly. When it hits the fan your body is going to go for the gun IT remembers, because your brain is going to be tied up in the Oh God! moment. This is a hard point to get across, because people don't want to believe it..., until they've experienced it. The key is develop a habitual familiarity with the gun you carry. Train with it until it's second nature. The body can get confused if you're carrying a different gun every week, with a different manual of arms.
I have no problems with the effectiveness of a .38 revolver with wadcutters, especially the load he's talking about. A revolver is a dependable machine and may have certain advantages. If this is what Billy feels good about to solve the problem and he's effective, which I'm sure he is, more power to him. I have a slightly different take, but that's based on MY particular needs. Again, do what you want. But you have to solve the problem.

Now, to define the problem. Many don't actually understand the problems they should be trying to resolve. They have answers, but to the wrong problems...
Click to expand...
You gotta get your butt to BO! Holler at me weā€™ll go even if itā€™s just for an afternoon. Cause I know your next trip will be longer!
 
I used to think all guns were the same. Had a glock 17 gen 2 police trade in that i could paint pictures with and assumed all glock 17s would work. Switched to a gen 3 and quickly found out that those finger groves really messed up my point of aim. I learned after that that is best for me to use one model/caliber and practice until i was hopefully as good as i was with that gen2. I have a few different guns, but i carry and practice with the same model in the hopes that if the time comes i can move around without needing to think about anything other than saving my life and the lives around me.
 
Gunbelt said:
You gotta get your butt to BO! Holler at me weā€™ll go even if itā€™s just for an afternoon. Cause I know your next trip will be longer!
Click to expand...
I was actually down there a few weeks ago for a brief visit. Working on scheduling for another. ;)
 
@BatteryOaksBilly, to your first point....

Of course, real life is dynamic, but we react as we train. Iā€™ll do the Bill drill, the Wizard drill, the Mozambique drill, etc.... I can accomplish all of these with competence. Wow, I beat par time on every drill! I have the mechanics but what about the decision making?

Letā€™s say the shit hits the fan and I have to make things happen. What is your take on engaging the threat? I agree that nailing the computer ends fights now and nailing the hydraulics ends them soon. How do you approach ending the fight ā€œright nowā€?
 
Etruett said:
It is a 230gr solid WC. Pretty sure I got them from Batman Bullets. Designed for Bowling pin shooting. There is a little data out there but most is showing about 600-700 FPS out of a 7-8ā€ barrel. Have not shot mine over a chrono, but with the research I did, Iā€™m satisfied these are 850+ out of s 2ā€. .There are a lot of 38 +P loads available with this velocity, but thatā€™s with a 110gr bullet. I will have To check the charge but itā€™s a healthy dose of 2400. Wouldnā€™t recommend prolonged shooting in s J frame, but itā€™s not designed as a Sunday afternoon Target load. Itā€™s a threat stopper. Personally Iā€™ll take a flat face bullet over a HP anytime for defense. Too many things can keep a HP from performing like clothing, leather and even Sheetrock. I plan on taking a few of these to my buddyā€™s junkyard soon. Curious how they do with glass and doors
Click to expand...
Ooh, I want to go.....
 
Iā€™ve carried a G30SF for the first 2 years and then in switched to a G19 for the past 20 years, I have had smaller guns like a G43, G26 and a sub nose that I carried a dozen times, but they never stayed long.
 
Stick Man said:
I carry a LCPII as a backup, and carry ball in it. I wouldn't trust a JHP to penetrate enough. Kelly carries a G-42 with solids in it also.

Sent from my T770B using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I keep a LCP around but loaded with Cor-Bon 80gr DPX bullets. Solid copper at ~1050fps
 
Glock 22 -> Glock 26 -> Glock 27 -> Kahr CM9 -> Glock 43 -> Glock 19/MR920.

Guess it makes sense, I went from full-size, to a variety of sub-compacts then settled on compact.

I generally do not carry NPE (a sin, I know, but frankly I avoid them at all costs anyways) so the potential printing of the G19 doesn't bother me.

I'll eventually pick up some snubnose revolvers and small .32/.380s for pocket carry, but not a priority these days.
 
Gaston said:
I generally do not carry NPE (a sin, I know, but frankly I avoid them at all costs anyways) so the potential printing of the G19 doesn't bother me.
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, are you referring to a Non Permissive Environment?
That was a standard term on a site I used to be a part of. But, I don't see or hear it used much elsewhere.
 
georgel said:
Just to clarify, are you referring to a Non Permissive Environment?
That was a standard term on a site I used to be a part of. But, I don't see or hear it used much elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Warrior talk?
 
Carry glocks. Usually a basic 42. No reason to upgrade or change everything. Have carried other guns, including a small 1911. Safety/no safety/Da/SA is fine. Glock style striker guns are best for me for carry.

IMO, if you want to really improve, competition will do it better than anything else. Table start? Practiced with pistols, shotguns, and rifles in different conditions. Because they happen all the time in matches. In competition you will be faced with every shooting scenario you could possibly imagine. Because itā€™s very good shooters designing shooting scenarios to challenge the very best shooters. It induces stress and thereā€™s no cheating yourself.

It humbles you and really exposes your weaknesses for all the world to see. Which I think scares a lot of people off.
 
Etruett said:
It is a 230gr solid WC. Pretty sure I got them from Batman Bullets. Designed for Bowling pin shooting. There is a little data out there but most is showing about 600-700 FPS out of a 7-8ā€ barrel. Have not shot mine over a chrono, but with the research I did, Iā€™m satisfied these are 850+ out of s 2ā€. .There are a lot of 38 +P loads available with this velocity, but thatā€™s with a 110gr bullet. I will have To check the charge but itā€™s a healthy dose of 2400. Wouldnā€™t recommend prolonged shooting in s J frame, but itā€™s not designed as a Sunday afternoon Target load. Itā€™s a threat stopper. Personally Iā€™ll take a flat face bullet over a HP anytime for defense. Too many things can keep a HP from performing like clothing, leather and even Sheetrock. I plan on taking a few of these to my buddyā€™s junkyard soon. Curious how they do with glass and doors
Click to expand...
Any other powders tried? I'd love to try some with HP-38, or AA #5, Titegroup, or Universal if any of those would work. 700-800 fps velocity would be good, kinda like a 45 ACP
 
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