Francis Scott Key bridge in Baltimore taken out by a cargo ship last night.

Exspiravit said:
None of you conspiracy theorists noticed they deployed (and dragged) an anchor before they hit huh?
Click to expand...

I think the current theory isnt a suicidal crew but that they were cycling power and dropping anchor because the ship was suddenly under the control of an outside actor.

Anyway, next time a ship like this goes out of control, Buttgreg plans to get in front of it and let it plow into his cornhole.
 
Geezer said:
Was Francis Scott Key racist? Why did they take down his bridge?
Click to expand...
“Star-Spangled Banner” songwriter Francis Scott Key opposed abolitionists and free speech in his role as district attorney of the city of Washington. Francis Scott Key, songwriter of “The Star-Spangled Banner,” defended slavery and attacked the abolitionist movement.
 
Diablos said:
if this was an electric ship, this wouldn't have happened


View attachment 760696
Click to expand...
I can't even imagine the power draw an electric cargo ship would create to turn motors strong enough to push a metric sh!t-ton of cargo across the ocean. It would need its own nuclear reactor to create the electricity. Or there'd be no room for conex boxes as it would all be batteries.
 
9outof10mms said:
I can't even imagine the power draw an electric cargo ship would create to turn motors strong enough to push a metric sh!t-ton of cargo across the ocean. It would need its own nuclear reactor to create the electricity. Or there'd be no room for conex boxes as it would all be batteries.
Click to expand...
Yeah because we want folks who can't even maintain a Volvo Penta diesel running a nuclear reactor lol

Hassan, his betel nut and his three wrenches just aren't going to cut it.
 
maritime-executive.com

What Do You Do if a Hacker Takes Control of Your Ship?

You’re on the bridge, with the ship’s course shown on the digital display. But why is the ship continuing to turn west?Everything looks normal on the...
maritime-executive.com maritime-executive.com

What Do You Do if a Hacker Takes Control of Your Ship?​

NTNU is training mariners on how to respond to a cyberattack in progress​

Cyber exercise on bridge simulator


The ship is not behaving as it should. What's happening? Captain Odd Sveinung Hareide explains to the others on the bridge what he has done, what he is prioritizing right now and the next move.

Photo: Eli Anne Tvergrov, NTNU.
PUBLISHED MAR 19, 2023 2:50 PM BY GEMINI NEWS




[By Eli Anne Tvergrov]
 
9outof10mms said:
I can't even imagine the power draw an electric cargo ship would create to turn motors strong enough to push a metric sh!t-ton of cargo across the ocean. It would need its own nuclear reactor to create the electricity. Or there'd be no room for conex boxes as it would all be batteries.
Click to expand...

If only there was a way to harness the wind to get across the ocean. :rolleyes:

BlackGun said:
How in the world do those stacked containers stay onboard during transit. Looks sketchy to me.
Click to expand...

Short answer is that they don't always stay. I know they can be pinned to a trailer for transport. I'm assuming that same connection can be made between boxes.
 
Truss bridges are fracture critical. This means that if you take out one element of the truss, the entire system collapses.

I am not sure what systems they had in place to prevent vessel impact like protective fenders and dolphins but I am sure that bridge was not designed for impact like that. They should have had some type of physical barrier to prevent impact but clearly it wasn’t enough.

Newer bridges are designed for vessel impact loads with a no collapse criteria but even then, there is always a bigger ship than what was considered. We try to build ductility into the system these days much like we do for earthquakes.

I don’t know what happened with that ship. But I am not surprised that the bridge collapsed the way it did.

Trusses are older technology and just bad for stuff like this. I remember the Minnesota bridge collapse and we got lucky on the Tennessee/Arkansas bridge over the Mississippi.

If you want to see how newer technology is better at preventing collapse, google the I-70 bridge impact in Hayes Kansas back around 2006. A raised arm on a backhoe nearly cut the bridge in half and it didn’t collapse.
 
Climberman said:
Trusses are older technology and just bad for stuff like this.
Click to expand...
While truss design is "old" (maybe a few hundred years, if that) compared to newer designs like cable suspension and/or stayed, they're certainly not inferior. Cable systems have their weak points, too. Cut a few critical lines or the main cable and see what happens.

Trusses and cables are the only way to span a large distance. Laws of physics catch up to a beam/girder design really quickly as they get longer and longer. A beam would be dozens or feet tall to support a free span like the Key bridge did. That gets so cumbersome in terms of size and weight to transport, build, and support, that the design kills itself. Trusses and cable designs allow for lightweight "airy" designs that span really long distances while holding disproportionate amounts of weight (i.e. traffic).

The Key bridge's failure was the loss of a pier which would have collapsed any type of bridge: cable suspension or stayed, girder, or truss. It's like if you're squatting 400 and I come kick your knee out--you're coming down whether you're a weekend warrior type in the gym or a world-class champion.
 
chiefjason said:
If only there was a way to harness the wind to get across the ocean.
Click to expand...
Duuuuude...*if* wind could even get a ship of that size going, it would take for-ev-er to get across the ocean with wind!

I'll try my hand at shipbuilding knowledge (based on a 5 minute Wikipedia degree!):
One of the largest wind-powered ships of the 1800's was the "super heavy frigate" such as the HMS Leander. It was 1,572 TN displacement (no idea how to get to an actual weight, fully loaded from that data) and had an estimated max speed of 13 kts using wind sails under load. The MV Dali (the ship that hit the bridge) is approximately 52,000 TN displacement and has a max speed of 22 kts using its screw under load of what is likely lightyears heavier than the old frigate.

...and now I've worked myself into a mental hole and have no idea where I was going with this...
Let's suffice it to say blowing a modern cargo ship across the ocean would be like one of those "strongman competition" guys pulling your rig down the highway with their teeth. Can it be done? Sure, but the cargo will be expired by the time it makes it to the loading dock!
 
Dali was 117000 tons loaded. For scale, that's 6 fully loaded freight trains smashing into a single pier.

* according to teh googals
 
Last edited:
Catfish said:
Dali was 117000 tons loaded. For scale, that's 6 fully loaded freight trains smashing into a single pier.

* according to teh googals
Click to expand...
Moving what? 6/7 knots in a harbor, maybe?
I don't think you could build a pylon or bumper that could stop that.
 
The prow of the ship hit that steel girder first, so it took the brunt of the force. But the ship stopped dead when it hit the concrete pylon below. You could certainly build a couple of those things underwater in front of and behind the bridge piers. Not sure how much that would cost but it clearly could stop a ship.
 
While it is possible and there are a boat load of terrorists who’d love to crash ships into US bridges I believe it would be easier to fly a plane into one. When you think of the logistics to gain control of a ship (getting someone in a position of authority) and then the actual physics behind steering one into action is way hard than just point and crash. These things are up to 150,000 to 200,000 ton behemoths that are made for open sea cruising not making quick turns, accelerating or stopping on a dime. Their engine (a 2,000+ plus diesel) does create a huge amount of power but it does not spool up in seconds … it’s camshaft is HUGE …

00E26E38-51A2-40D1-BC14-0A0CE34AC796.jpeg

… and it takes time to spool up along with all the 3 foot or so pistons in the engine to it is 100-150 rpm operating speed. The rudder also is a huge piece that does not swing fast either … it takes time also. The person at the wheel also does not just step on the gas and turn the wheel on the ship instantly … it is not a speed boat.

The Dali did show a huge blast of smoke from what is likely a huge turbocharged 2 stroke diesel engine being rev’ed up as fast as possible but still it has to spin the up to 30 foot diameter 100 ton propeller … it ain’t instant (especially if asked to go in reverse in an emergency). Moves like this likely cause some cavitation (the water around the propeller and rudder in the case of ships like the Dali become almost aerated and cuts the force the rudder and propeller can apply) and loss of control. Also the Dali has several diesel generators that provide power for nab and control systems along with power for auxiliary systems for the ship and some cargo containers (refrigeration type units and such) that also could have rev’ed up after being offline … speculation there at best. All the above happened in a span of a couple minutes which is actually a very short period for a 1,000 foot 150,000+ ton ship. Maybe the people in control were just going for a good disruption in shipping and hit the jackpot … which I will not discount. However I still lean towards the idea a bunch of crap happened due to errors … both mechanical and human … aligned. Those along with panic and overreaction by captain and crew resulted in the worst outcome possible … but yeah it coulda been something else too.
 
I can't remember where I learned it (likely an old Discovery Channel video back when the channel had actual legit stuff to learn about--not Honey Boo-Boo's and ghosts), but the Sunshine Skyway bridge was rebuilt with protection that can withstand some level of ship collision. I found this in YouTube, obviously made to ride on the news of the Key Bridge news by a local Tampa, FL station.


The Sunshine Skyway's "dolphin" protectors can be seen here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/wtxvLsgRe9vhde2k6
They're about 350' in front of the piers for the main span:
2.png

So the bow of a ship couldn't stick over them and still tap the pier.

I bet you see a lot of these dolphins installed int he next few years in vulnerable locations.

Surprisingly, the Key Bridge did not have dolphins to protect it. The shapes you see just before it are powerline towers and their small barriers around them (which the Dali missed).
3.png
 
NCFubar said:
While it is possible and there are a boat load of terrorists who’d love to crash ships into US bridges I believe it would be easier to fly a plane into one. When you think of the logistics to gain control of a ship (getting someone in a position of authority) and then the actual physics behind steering one into action is way hard than just point and crash. These things are up to 150,000 to 200,000 ton behemoths that are made for open sea cruising not making quick turns, accelerating or stopping on a dime. Their engine (a 2,000+ plus diesel) does create a huge amount of power but it does not spool up in seconds … it’s camshaft is HUGE …

View attachment 760756

… and it takes time to spool up along with all the 3 foot or so pistons in the engine to it is 100-150 rpm operating speed. The rudder also is a huge piece that does not swing fast either … it takes time also. The person at the wheel also does not just step on the gas and turn the wheel on the ship instantly … it is not a speed boat.

The Dali did show a huge blast of smoke from what is likely a huge turbocharged 2 stroke diesel engine being rev’ed up as fast as possible but still it has to spin the up to 30 foot diameter 100 ton propeller … it ain’t instant (especially if asked to go in reverse in an emergency). Moves like this likely cause some cavitation (the water around the propeller and rudder in the case of ships like the Dali become almost aerated and cuts the force the rudder and propeller can apply) and loss of control. Also the Dali has several diesel generators that provide power for nab and control systems along with power for auxiliary systems for the ship and some cargo containers (refrigeration type units and such) that also could have rev’ed up after being offline … speculation there at best. All the above happened in a span of a couple minutes which is actually a very short period for a 1,000 foot 150,000+ ton ship.
Click to expand...
I didn't see one anywhere near as big as Dali, but sailing in the Mediterranean I got to watch one up close take a little bit to change course to give us on our little sailboat ROW while we were running about 13 knots with decent winds. I couldn't get a gauge on how fast they were moving, but just course correction took a significant amount of time.
The scale of those boats while you're sitting 4' off the water looking up at them was mind boggling.
 
Last edited:
A lot of the big container ships have a bulbous projection on the front of the hull, which is generally not visible when they are loaded. It's at least possible that's what did the most damage to the pier, since the visible hull seems to have **fairly** minor damage.

Edit: wiki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbous_bow
 
Last edited:
From an article I read -

The ship is about 984 feet long – almost the length of three football fields. At the time of the crash, the Dali weighed 95,000 gross tons – or 213 million pounds –

I had read another that it was moving at about 9 mph. Not that fast until you try to stop that weight
 
This describes the Sunshine Skyway Collapse
Not a paywall, just close that pop up thing

www.tampabay.com

See historic photos from the Sunshine Skyway bridge disaster

On May 9, 1980, a freighter struck the bridge, killing 35 people in one of the worst disasters in Tampa Bay history.
www.tampabay.com www.tampabay.com

I hated driving on the new Sunshine Skyway tho - it is super narrow and you can feel it flex in the wind, while you were driving and of course FL drivers..
 
9outof10mms said:
Duuuuude...*if* wind could even get a ship of that size going, it would take for-ev-er to get across the ocean with wind!

I'll try my hand at shipbuilding knowledge (based on a 5 minute Wikipedia degree!):
One of the largest wind-powered ships of the 1800's was the "super heavy frigate" such as the HMS Leander. It was 1,572 TN displacement (no idea how to get to an actual weight, fully loaded from that data) and had an estimated max speed of 13 kts using wind sails under load. The MV Dali (the ship that hit the bridge) is approximately 52,000 TN displacement and has a max speed of 22 kts using its screw under load of what is likely lightyears heavier than the old frigate.

...and now I've worked myself into a mental hole and have no idea where I was going with this...
Let's suffice it to say blowing a modern cargo ship across the ocean would be like one of those "strongman competition" guys pulling your rig down the highway with their teeth. Can it be done? Sure, but the cargo will be expired by the time it makes it to the loading dock!
Click to expand...

It was a joke. On my end at least.

alpharius said:
Is anyone else amazed that the bridge was obliterated but the ship looks mostly fine?
Click to expand...

I’m not. Not that I’m an engineer at all. But you can’t build for all anticipated forces. Looking at the span on that bridge, remove an important load bearing part and the dominoes start to fall. Gotta wonder if that type of shearing force by impact was considered when it was built.

What is surprising is that no one thought it was a good idea to build protection around the piers of a bridge leading to a busy port.
 
9outof10mms said:
While truss design is "old" (maybe a few hundred years, if that) compared to newer designs like cable suspension and/or stayed, they're certainly not inferior. Cable systems have their weak points, too. Cut a few critical lines or the main cable and see what happens.

Trusses and cables are the only way to span a large distance. Laws of physics catch up to a beam/girder design really quickly as they get longer and longer. A beam would be dozens or feet tall to support a free span like the Key bridge did. That gets so cumbersome in terms of size and weight to transport, build, and support, that the design kills itself. Trusses and cable designs allow for lightweight "airy" designs that span really long distances while holding disproportionate amounts of weight (i.e. traffic).

The Key bridge's failure was the loss of a pier which would have collapsed any type of bridge: cable suspension or stayed, girder, or truss. It's like if you're squatting 400 and I come kick your knee out--you're coming down whether you're a weekend warrior type in the gym or a world-class champion.
Click to expand...

9outof10mms said:
While truss design is "old" (maybe a few hundred years, if that) compared to newer designs like cable suspension and/or stayed, they're certainly not inferior. Cable systems have their weak points, too. Cut a few critical lines or the main cable and see what happens.

Trusses and cables are the only way to span a large distance. Laws of physics catch up to a beam/girder design really quickly as they get longer and longer. A beam would be dozens or feet tall to support a free span like the Key bridge did. That gets so cumbersome in terms of size and weight to transport, build, and support, that the design kills itself. Trusses and cable designs allow for lightweight "airy" designs that span really long distances while holding disproportionate amounts of weight (i.e. traffic).

The Key bridge's failure was the loss of a pier which would have collapsed any type of bridge: cable suspension or stayed, girder, or truss. It's like if you're squatting 400 and I come kick your knee out--you're coming down whether you're a weekend warrior type in the gym or a world-class champion.
Click to expand...
But with truss spans, if you kick one guy’s knee out, he falls down and the guy next to him, and the guy next to him and the guy next to him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NKD
9outof10mms said:
One of the largest wind-powered ships of the 1800's was the "super heavy frigate" such as the HMS Leander. It was 1,572 TN displacement (no idea how to get to an actual weight, fully loaded from that data) and had an estimated max speed of 13 kts using wind sails under load. The MV Dali (the ship that hit the bridge) is approximately 52,000 TN displacement and has a max speed of 22 kts using its screw under load of what is likely lightyears heavier than the old frigate.
Click to expand...

That 1572 is tons burthen or BM (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Builder's_Old_Measurement), not displacement.

HMS Leander (1813) was a spar deck frigate built as a response to the US Navy's famous (and large) spar decked Constitution; President; and United States. The "spar" deck could be viewed essentially as (i) a widening of the gangways connecting the forecastle and quarterdeck or, equivalently, (ii) a "closing of the waist." In any case, the point being to allow arming of heavy (32 or 42-lb carronades along most of the length of the uppermost decking. To compare:

HMS Leander: 26x42-lb carronades + 4x24-lb carronades on the forecastle. 30 x 24-lb long guns on the main deck.

Compare with a more 'standard' 18 pounder frigate of the RN at the time:

HMS Thetis (late Napoleonic Wars configuration of the Leda Class): 14x32-lb carronades on QD; 2x9-lb long guns + 2x32-lb carronades on FC; and 28x18-lb long guns on main deck. Oh, and about 1086 BM.

N.B. Divide by two to get the numbers on any one side of the ship.
 
Last edited:
Climberman said:
But with truss spans, if you kick one guy’s knee out, he falls down and the guy next to him, and the guy next to him and the guy next to him.
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter what type of bridge span system is in use--knock out a pier and the bridge is coming down. Zero chance of any type of bridge surviving the fall as they're just not designed for the slew of forces that pull and push on the bridge when it become distorted. It was designed and built for one standing position with loads in known locations. Once the bridge is distorted and loaded differently than designed, it's toast.

Failure of a structure quickly becomes exponential...incomprehensible, even...like when the World Trade Towers collapsed. They were designed to remain upright--load running straight up and down with a little bit of lateral load form wind and seismic activity. Once a few beams buckled and allowed the building to distort into a configuration other than its original shape, they fell like a house of cards.

The Key bridge's individual members saw loads never dreamed up when they were twisted, bent, pinched, etc. At they point they all became wet noodles. There's not a design in the world--even if the whole thing was made of carbon fiber--that could withstand that sort of impacting and resulting loading.
 
Wow, those china guys are working. Not being a real fan of most windmill ideas . This actually looks like a very good idea to me.
:)
 
Jmoser said:
Click to expand...

Like solar, wind, and other “green” initiatives, it doesn’t come close to delivering the efficiency of fossil fuel-based energy. Reduces diesel consumption by 1/5…or 20%. That’s not nothing, but it’s likely giving all she’s got for that tech. And it ain’t enough.
 
Button Pusher said:
I wonder if they can use barges to ferry the hazmat vehicles over the water after the structures are dismantled and the water clear.
Click to expand...
Hazmat can get around on 695 the other side of Baltimore. Just can't go through the tunnels. 695 is a loop. Only a small portion if it is out. That bridge "only" carried something like 12,000 vehicles a day. Not insignificant but not a huge number compared to the rest of the traffic there. It's getting the freight out of the port right now that's a problem. Other incoming cargo has been diverted to Virginia and NY. I'm sure some will go to Charleston and Savannah as well.

As far as fuel - Dali has on board 1.8 million gallons of diesel fuel. Guess the mileage isn't great.
 
Diablos said:
if this was an electric ship, this wouldn't have happened
Click to expand...
Amazingly, it is not a diesel electric ship, like a locomotive... instead the fixed pitch propeller on it's single shaft is coupled to the diesel main engine. That's pretty low tech propulsion for a ship built in 2015.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom