I dunno about this whole optics on pistols fad, but I'm trying it

Jayne

Jayne

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I'm not really enjoying the experience so far of having an optic on my faithful G34, I went from being fairly competent with irons to shooting like a noob for just $350. Couple times I turned the dot off and just used the irons to make sure I really wasn't dreaming and that I can actually shoot.

I'm dumping shots low/left like I have zero trigger control, and fully expect someone to tell me to buy an apex trigger or some crap at any moment. Very frustrating.

My working theory is that the only time I look at the target when firing is on targets that are extremely close where trigger press doesn't matter. My brain says "well, if you're looking at the target now then I'm just going to slap this trigger even if it's 15 yards away because you're obviously not looking at the sights". Doesn't happen dryfire, only live when I'm thinking about other stuff.

Anyway, I'm giving it 6 months to see what happens. Going to run it in the IDPA match on Saturday, fully expect it to cost me significantly in overall standing since I really don't know what I'm doing. If it's really bad, maybe I'll just turn it off. No one will know I'm shooting CO with no O. :p

g34_optic_3.jpg
 
The first time I tried a RDS was on my Glock 19 like 3 years ago. I tried it for a few sessions and ended up going back to irons out of frustration. until this last week. Now I’m running one on me P365 and Canik. Took them both to the range twice, I’ve noticed if I think about it to much I end up trying to use my sights (co-witness). I have noticed if I focus on the target I have better success. I used to shoot with one eye closed? But with an optic it’s helped me keep both open.
 
Zeroed off a rest or by someone for sure competent?
Then yeah it's grip/trigger control. Why it appears with optic and not irons, assuming you haven't adjusted the irons to compensate I dunno, you're probably on to something with target focus making you sloppy, stop doing that, show all targets the appropriate respect. Optics are easy, and a great learning tool particularly in dry fire, much harder to deceive yourself.
 
What optic is that ? Looks small, but that is a long slide.
I was a die hard, only need iron sights on handguns guy until a little over a year ago.
Practice bringing it up and finding the dot, some dry fire practice at home will help a bunch.
Yes there is a certain amount of time you need to work on it to master it.
 
It gets better when you can finally stop looking at the dot. For a few years now I've had to use a special set of shooting glasses to be able to focus on the front sight. The dot has allowed me to shoot wearing the same glasses I wear every day everywhere. If you ponder that for 1.5 seconds you'll notice it's pretty darn important for EDC to be able to shoot with your EDC glasses.
 
The optic magnifies all issues with grip, trigger control etc. if you are going to stick with it i recommend training with an instructor who specializes in the dot. Dry fire is your friend with the dot. You tube has lots of helpful videos- scott jedlinski, mike pannone, sage dynamics and others

Just my helpful.2c
 
When I made the transition, I spent probably 2 months dry firing before I ever even fired a live round. That time spent to developing the muscle memory really paid off and when I finally shot actual rounds through it, it felt very natural and was very easy to do.

You really need to spend the time dry firing, trust me, it makes a world of difference.
 
Derek8404 said:
When I made the transition, I spent probably 2 months dry firing before I ever even fired a live round. That time spent to developing the muscle memory really paid off and when I finally shot actual rounds through it, it felt very natural and was very easy to do.

You really need to spend the time dry firing, trust me, it makes a world of difference.
Click to expand...
This is the way
 
Derek8404 said:
When I made the transition, I spent probably 2 months dry firing before I ever even fired a live round. That time spent to developing the muscle memory really paid off and when I finally shot actual rounds through it, it felt very natural and was very easy to do.

You really need to spend the time dry firing, trust me, it makes a world of difference.
Click to expand...
This ^^^
It’s a “soul destroyer” for sure. Like I said in another post, I almost quit the RDS and said “not for me”. Get organized, get disciplined, and get to work. You got this !!!!!!
 
Jmoser said:
Get a dot on a .22 plinker. Ammo savings will pay for it while you train.

Dry fire is great if you have something easy to recock but racking the slide every darn time just plain sucks.
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I do not disagree that a rds equipped rim fire gun could be a useful tool.

I do also believe that learning to acquire the dot when you present the pistol can be achieved without a single dry fire trigger press. Stick with it. If my simple brain can get this down you certainly can.
 
Jayne said:
I'm not really enjoying the experience so far of having an optic on my faithful G34, I went from being fairly competent with irons to shooting like a noob for just $350. Couple times I turned the dot off and just used the irons to make sure I really wasn't dreaming and that I can actually shoot.

I'm dumping shots low/left like I have zero trigger control, and fully expect someone to tell me to buy an apex trigger or some crap at any moment. Very frustrating.

My working theory is that the only time I look at the target when firing is on targets that are extremely close where trigger press doesn't matter. My brain says "well, if you're looking at the target now then I'm just going to slap this trigger even if it's 15 yards away because you're obviously not looking at the sights". Doesn't happen dryfire, only live when I'm thinking about other stuff.

Anyway, I'm giving it 6 months to see what happens. Going to run it in the IDPA match on Saturday, fully expect it to cost me significantly in overall standing since I really don't know what I'm doing. If it's really bad, maybe I'll just turn it off. No one will know I'm shooting CO with no O. :p

View attachment 639275
Click to expand...
I see your problem, it's the Glock 🤣. I had the same problem with a red dot on my AK. I was trying to find the red dot and use my lower cowitness irons and just couldn't get the hang of it.
 
Hang in there! Once you work out the nuances and it clicks for you... it's going to be a game changer!
It took me a ton of reps from holsters and dry fire to get the presentation confidence I needed.
 
@Jayne I'm about a year into experimenting with a RDS on a pistol and it really does come down to just putting in the dry fire and live fire reps as others have mentioned. Inside of 20yds I'm still faster and just as accurate with irons, but once I start taking shots out past 20yds my accuracy is much better with RDS. This is largely because I can get a more accurate sight picture. I went with the Holosun HE-507C-GR-ACSS Vulcan from Primary Arms. The Vulcan reticule really does make finding the dot much easier, especially when shooting from non-standard positions for any of those that were curious.

www.primaryarms.com

Holosun HE507C-GR-X2 Pistol Green Dot Sight - ACSS® Vulcan™ Reticle

DetailsThe Holosun HE507C-GR-X2-ACSS is a new generation of pistol red dot sight packed full of features like the multiple reticle system, solar failsafe, and shake awake technology to ensure your reflex sight is always operational when you need it. On top of the two battery-saving techniques...
www.primaryarms.com

1688591174205.png
 
Little practice session today, and it's improving. I'm still low but not as wickedly low/left as before. I've noticed that the dot isn't co-witnessing with the irons 'most of the time' which means the pistol is at some funky angle vs. what it should be. I think that's sending my shot low as I press the trigger and 'rotate' the gun down a bit. If I'm careful about my grip it doesn't happen (and consequently the dot lines up with the front iron instead of floating above it).

I did nothing static, everything was a table start followed by 2 rounds to the paper and a transition to 1 shot on steel, or moving into position and 2+1 or that followed by lateral movement and 2+1, etc. Trying to recreate match conditions where everything is being shot either right after coming into a position or right before leaving or after a transition. 10 yards I think, or maybe 9. Just tossed it next to the first plate rack at the range (someone will be along shortly to give me the proper distance. :) )

The 22 holes were running the same drills just with the TX22 with it's high mounted dot. I'm very happy with the rimfire+dot setup.

IMG_3871.jpg
 
Bunsen said:
@Jayne I'm about a year into experimenting with a RDS on a pistol and it really does come down to just putting in the dry fire and live fire reps as others have mentioned. Inside of 20yds I'm still faster and just as accurate with irons, but once I start taking shots out past 20yds my accuracy is much better with RDS. This is largely because I can get a more accurate sight picture. I went with the Holosun HE-507C-GR-ACSS Vulcan from Primary Arms. The Vulcan reticule really does make finding the dot much easier, especially when shooting from non-standard positions for any of those that were curious.

www.primaryarms.com

Holosun HE507C-GR-X2 Pistol Green Dot Sight - ACSS® Vulcan™ Reticle

DetailsThe Holosun HE507C-GR-X2-ACSS is a new generation of pistol red dot sight packed full of features like the multiple reticle system, solar failsafe, and shake awake technology to ensure your reflex sight is always operational when you need it. On top of the two battery-saving techniques...
www.primaryarms.com

View attachment 640483
Click to expand...
I really wish Holosun would put that outer ring on the other circle dot combos. I love it on the ACSS.
 
Derek8404 said:
When I made the transition, I spent probably 2 months dry firing before I ever even fired a live round. That time spent to developing the muscle memory really paid off and when I finally shot actual rounds through it, it felt very natural and was very easy to do.

You really need to spend the time dry firing, trust me, it makes a world of difference.
Click to expand...
I'm just starting down this road. I had a really hard time at first getting the dot into view when I present.

It got a little easier once I learned the key takeaway of what you just wrote-muscle memory.

My iron sights and red dot witness properly, so why doesn't the red dot show when I present? Too much of what I thought was pure muscle memory was relying on eye-hand coordination. Eyes focused on the front sight for irons, eyes focused on the target for red dot. It takes a lot of work to switch and I want to make the switch. The whole rationale for switching is because in an emergency, I want to be able to focus on the target, not the front sight. Changing focus from near to far and back again becomes harder as we get older.

It takes a fair amount of practice to develop the muscle memory needed for both irons and red dot to show on target when presenting at full speed. That practice must be with a purpose and understanding of what I'm trying to do, replace the muscle memory with a high reliance on eye-hand coordination with pure muscle memory independent of where my eyes are focused.

I'm not there yet, but I know what the objective is and how I have to train.
 
What's the rational behind co-witnessing irons? It seems counterproductive to put a front sight out there when you're trying to train the eye away from front-sight focus.
 
Catfish said:
What's the rational behind co-witnessing irons? It seems counterproductive to put a front sight out there when you're trying to train the eye away from front-sight focus.
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It's for when your battery dies or the electronics fail on the red dot
 
Bunsen said:
It's an exclusive co-branding with Primary Arms for now since they own the patents on all the ACSS reticules.
Click to expand...
But Primary Arms doesn’t have the huge outer ring on any of their reticles, so I’m not sure why that would come into play.
 
Jayne said:
Little practice session today, and it's improving. I'm still low but not as wickedly low/left as before. I've noticed that the dot isn't co-witnessing with the irons 'most of the time' which means the pistol is at some funky angle vs. what it should be. I think that's sending my shot low as I press the trigger and 'rotate' the gun down a bit. If I'm careful about my grip it doesn't happen (and consequently the dot lines up with the front iron instead of floating above it).

I did nothing static, everything was a table start followed by 2 rounds to the paper and a transition to 1 shot on steel, or moving into position and 2+1 or that followed by lateral movement and 2+1, etc. Trying to recreate match conditions where everything is being shot either right after coming into a position or right before leaving or after a transition. 10 yards I think, or maybe 9. Just tossed it next to the first plate rack at the range (someone will be along shortly to give me the proper distance. :) )

The 22 holes were running the same drills just with the TX22 with it's high mounted dot. I'm very happy with the rimfire+dot setup.

View attachment 641332
Click to expand...

Should take your sights off.
 
Guy I shoot with suggested this and to my surprise... it works. Put a piece of tape over the front of the optic and shoot (or dry fire). It forces target focus and re-inforces two eyes open shooting. Turned out to be a great training hack.
 
Catfish said:
Guy I shoot with suggested this and to my surprise... it works. Put a piece of tape over the front of the optic and shoot (or dry fire). It forces target focus and re-inforces two eyes open shooting. Turned out to be a great training hack.
Click to expand...

Been trying that, it does keep me from reverting to the irons since I can't see the front any longer.
 
Jmoser said:
Get a dot on a .22 plinker. Ammo savings will pay for it while you train.

Dry fire is great if you have something easy to recock but racking the slide every darn time just plain sucks.
Click to expand...
I got a Taurus G3C that has re-strike capability *and* I got a good quality laser cartridge (3 rings plus multi-thousand hit rated replaceable switch).
No need to rack the slide on each shot.

I use an old cellphone with some software ... it reads a printed target with its camera and announces hit scoring, PLUS I have a Mantis-X.

Completely catapults the utility of dry firing from 'a good idea' to "really, this is better than being at the range."
 
Supermatch said:
But Primary Arms doesn’t have the huge outer ring on any of their reticles, so I’m not sure why that would come into play.
Click to expand...
Not to sidetrack this thread but the original image I posted is of the ACSS Vulcan reticule with the 250 MOA outer circle that assists in centering the dot when you can't find it in the sight window when misaligned. Was that not what you were referencing by outer ring? The ACSS Vulcan is exclusively Primary Arms, they co-branded with Holosun to offer it in the the 507 and 509 RDS.



pr.primaryarms.com

PRIMARY ARMS® OPTICS RELEASES NEW CO-BRANDED HOLOSUN HE509 ENCLOSED MINI REFLEX SIGHT WITH ACSS® VULCAN® RETICLE

Primary Arms Optics has released a new co-branded optic in partnership with Holosun: the HE509 Enclosed Mini Reflex Sight with ACSS® Vulcan® reticle.
pr.primaryarms.com pr.primaryarms.com
1688885773039.png
 
gc70 said:
After mastering a dot, how easy is it to go back to irons?
Click to expand...

I'm hoping it's like an automatic vs. a manual transmission, or the whole 'grip angle' nonsense. Once you learn both your brain just does the right thing when needed.
 
Bunsen said:
Not to sidetrack this thread but the original image I posted is of the ACSS Vulcan reticule with the 250 MOA outer circle that assists in centering the dot when you can't find it in the sight window when misaligned. Was that not what you were referencing by outer ring? The ACSS Vulcan is exclusively Primary Arms, they co-branded with Holosun to offer it in the the 507 and 509 RDS.



pr.primaryarms.com

PRIMARY ARMS® OPTICS RELEASES NEW CO-BRANDED HOLOSUN HE509 ENCLOSED MINI REFLEX SIGHT WITH ACSS® VULCAN® RETICLE

Primary Arms Optics has released a new co-branded optic in partnership with Holosun: the HE509 Enclosed Mini Reflex Sight with ACSS® Vulcan® reticle.
pr.primaryarms.com pr.primaryarms.com
View attachment 641955
Click to expand...
Yes. I didn’t think the 250 MOA outer ring was part of the patent, but that doesn’t appear to be the case.
 
It's really hared to explain until you have that "ah-ha" moment, but after years of focusing on the front sight, you really have to practice focusing on the target and looking through the dot at the target.

It is hard to convince yourself not to stare at that bright dot, but instead just lay it over the target. It does not have to be in the center of the window for a hit at speed. Takes a while to "re-train".
 
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