If your AR pistol becomes a SBR

An issue I have is this: a friend of mine, who really isnt a gun guy, decided he needed/wanted another AR. He was able to grab two lowers from Atlas Firearms in winston, so I was like "Cool, thats a great start."

But he is toying with the idea of an AR pistol because he really likes the concept and would fit his needs. I own two, that I built myself and I love them. But for a new guy coming onto the scene, I am having a hard time being encouraging. I personally dont even know where to start with any of the NFA stuff, so even things like "Oh, its no big deal, its just a form 1"...well...what is a form 1? Where do I get one? Where do I send it? I know none of this stuff, which is >exactly< the reason I went with an AR pistol in the first place. It was easy and avoided all of the ATF mumbo jumbo.

So now I have this newbie who is like "Sweet! I have some lowers! I want to build an AR pistol!" and I find myself like "Whoa tiger, pump the breaks...I dont know what the ATF is going to decide, and I dont know how to even start to help you with it..."

This is a place in my "gun guy" life that I am irritatingly ignorant. Is telling him "Just build another carbine/rifle" for now the best option? Or am I being overly cautious.
 
TSConver said:
A stripped lower legally is an other. If it was transferred as a pistol your ffl is an idiot.
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I wasn’t there when he bought them, and doesn’t remember what the Atlas guy wrote. So, who knows.


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gunbelt said:
Not a dam thing but keep it loaded & ready to repel .Gov thugs. They may find me dead in a bunker, but I'll be covered in brass.
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I love you Ole Pard.....we'll be 2 old Bastards on the 6 oc news that they can use as examples of "why we don't Need these weapons".
 
bigfelipe said:
All I want to know is do any of you really have my back when I make said decision..?
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if only you were closer...

well crap i thought i was being funny but somebody beat me to it.

but seriously.... if you were closer. im in the middle of yuppieland (aka clemmons)
 
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CarolinaColtCollector said:
Pistol or other.
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If it was an AR receiver, whether stripped, complete with a brace, complete with a stock, or anywhere in between...it’s an Other. Not a handgun or a long gun.
 
And an FFL marking the 4473 incorrectly doesn’t change what it is/was. If you’re having to deal with a 4473, you ought to have a receipt that shows it was a receiver.

nothing wrong with buying a complete lower, with a stock, and building a pistol...as long as you remove the stock before attaching the upper the first time
 
Did the ATF do something recently that made "making" SBRs more difficult or did I misinterpret something?
 
James said:
Did the ATF do something recently that made "making" SBRs more difficult or did I misinterpret something?
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No.

There’s just some ongoing discussions about whether braced AR pistols need to be considered NFA firearms. Nothing has actually changed in the industry. One manufacturer (Q) was told to stop making one of their models, and some other discussion around two more models they offer (models of pistols, not braces). The big concern is one of them comes with an SBA3 brace.
 
CarolinaColtCollector said:
I don’t know if my humor was caught...

The joke was, if a brace makes me a felon, I’m just going to put a stock on it.

The ATF needs to be abolished and someone needs to turn it into a store that sells what’s in the name.
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Yes .. why the discrimination against treading on alcohol and tobacco!!
Grandma wouldn't have died of mouth cancer if the ATF had enforced some arbitrary snuff tobacco opinion.....


Lol

DS
 
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James said:
Did the ATF do something recently that made "making" SBRs more difficult or did I misinterpret something?
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Basically....besides Q (maker of honeybadger pistol) being singled out....the ATF is looking to restrict certain "pistols" from IMPORTATION.
Because of this Possible IMPORTATION rejection and ATF saying those pistols are NFA items...... people are going crazy .
The ATF is explicitly ignoring a Presidential Executive order (to stop regulations) because they are left over Obama people and don't like the current president.


DS
 
Remember, if you first make your build as a rifle, you can never make a pistol. if you start as a pistol, you can make it a rifle and back as you please. If they change pistol to AOW, never admit you had a pistol and make it a rifle.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
Remember, if you first make your build as a rifle, you can never make a pistol. if you start as a pistol, you can make it a rifle and back as you please. If they change pistol to AOW, never admit you had a pistol and make it a rifle.
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And if you attached the upper, before attaching the stock...you first made a pistol. 😎
 
I want to sit down and have a beer with whoever makes the rules at the ATF. You would figure the entity would have at least 1 person there that might attempt to defend our rights and offer some sanity.
 
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CarolinaColtCollector said:
I want to sit down and have a beer with whoever makes the rules at the ATF. You would figure the entity would have at least 1 person there that might attempt to defend our rights and offer some sanity.
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Would probably have better luck finding a car enthusiast at the DMV. 🤣
 
Combat Diver said:
ATF can't even make up its mind on if either they are SBRs or AOWs.

CD
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I'll preface this by saying I don't like any of these laws/rulings/interpretations and I think they are all unconstitutional.

That said, from a purely logical standpoint and given the legal definition of a pistol (designed to be fired with one hand, etc.) it is really hard to argue that something like an 11" Galil ACE 7.62 NATO "pistol" is designed to be fired with one hand. If it has a brace then maybe that argument can be made it is a pistol, but certainly not without one, and IWI sells it both ways. Logically a braceless pistol of that size/weight/cartridge really makes more sense as an AOW than a pistol.

Then we have the braces. Everyone knows they are stocks in everything but name. How many folks do you suppose buy said braces to actually use a braces as opposed to using them as "not stocks." I don't like it but I understand why, given current definitions and interpretations, BATFE is waffling about some of the braces actually being stocks.

BATFE definitely should not have the power to approve something and then later say "just kidding, now you are a felon." Unfortunately as it stands right now they do. I figured this was coming eventually, especially after the "you can shoulder a brace, wait no you can't, well actually you can" debacle of a couple years ago. When all that started I had quite a few braced pistols. I've been slowly SBRing them over the last couple of years every time I had a spare $200. Efiling made that a lot easier (and quicker).

I'm down to one braced pistol now. Last time I was at THSF I had it engraved because I'll eventually SBR it. I already had machineguns and suppressors before braces became a thing at all. I can't be anymore on the list than I already am, so I lose nothing other than $200 for registering my last remaining AR "pistol." So that is what I will do.

On the other hand, I can't blame anyone who isn't already on the list and chooses not to comply. Hopefully this will all turn out to be a big nothing. However, given how the election results are going I suspect we are in for more BATFE shenanigans in the future not less.
 
B00ger said:
An issue I have is this: a friend of mine, who really isnt a gun guy, decided he needed/wanted another AR. He was able to grab two lowers from Atlas Firearms in winston, so I was like "Cool, thats a great start."

But he is toying with the idea of an AR pistol because he really likes the concept and would fit his needs. I own two, that I built myself and I love them. But for a new guy coming onto the scene, I am having a hard time being encouraging. I personally dont even know where to start with any of the NFA stuff, so even things like "Oh, its no big deal, its just a form 1"...well...what is a form 1? Where do I get one? Where do I send it? I know none of this stuff, which is >exactly< the reason I went with an AR pistol in the first place. It was easy and avoided all of the ATF mumbo jumbo.

So now I have this newbie who is like "Sweet! I have some lowers! I want to build an AR pistol!" and I find myself like "Whoa tiger, pump the breaks...I dont know what the ATF is going to decide, and I dont know how to even start to help you with it..."

This is a place in my "gun guy" life that I am irritatingly ignorant. Is telling him "Just build another carbine/rifle" for now the best option? Or am I being overly cautious.
Click to expand...

B00ger said:
I wasn’t there when he bought them, and doesn’t remember what the Atlas guy wrote. So, who knows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

BigWaylon said:
If it was an AR receiver, whether stripped, complete with a brace, complete with a stock, or anywhere in between...it’s an Other. Not a handgun or a long gun.
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BigWaylon said:
And an FFL marking the 4473 incorrectly doesn’t change what it is/was. If you’re having to deal with a 4473, you ought to have a receipt that shows it was a receiver.

nothing wrong with buying a complete lower, with a stock, and building a pistol...as long as you remove the stock before attaching the upper the first time
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Tell him to build a pistol with a brace. The stripped lower was most likely transferred as other because that is what a stripped lower should be transferred as. Even if it wasn't as @BigWaylon pointed out a paperwork error does not change the "true" designation of the item being transferred. Even if they transferred it marked rifle is it is a stripped lower and is still other until you build it in to something which changes its designation. Which is why I say build a pistol.

You can take a stripped lower and make it into a pistol by putting a pistol upper on it. You can put a pistol brace on that pistol if you want to. You can then take that pistol and turn it into a rifle, by putting a 16" barreled upper on it and then convert it back to a pistol putting the original pistol upper back on it. So Pistol>Rifle>Pistol is ok. http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Once you take that stripped lower and make it a rifle by putting a barreled upper on it with a rifle stock it is a rifle for ever. If the barrel length is over 16" you have rifle. If it is 14.5" or under without a pinned muzzle device it is a SBR wich without the proper paperwork is a no-go. Unlike going from a Pistol>Rifle you cannot go from rifle to pistol. If you put a 11.5" barrel on that rifle you have made a SBR even if you put a pistol brace on it.

So you friend will have more flexibility by building a pistol. As of today the brace is legal and the lower becomes a pistol. If braces become SBRs because of some arbitrary letter from the ATF then he can remove the pistol barrel replace it with a rifle barrel and he is good to go. He can even leave the brace on it or switch to a rifle stock. If the issue is later settled as a matter of law vs a opinion letter allowing braces again on pistols he can convert back.
 
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