Ken Hackathorn-The 1 to 5 drill

It's amazing to me how a bunch of supposedly like minded individuals can watch a video by a widely recognized and very longtime firearms instructor with far reaching credentials and get into such a pissing match.
 
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Me and my brother are setting up a range so we can practice for IDPA and I like Ken's methods. I'll try this drill when we are done. This should be fun. I'm thinking I should get my 12yo a 22 pistol to practice with. This should be good.
 
fieldgrade said:
It's amazing to me how a bunch of supposedly like minded individuals can watch a video by a widely recognized and very longtime firearms instructor with far reaching credentials and get into such a pissing match.
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Ken Hack athorn is a loser and knows nothing about defensive shooting. And anyone who likes him is a real stupid doo doo face
 
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I realize you’re just kidding. I’d surely hate for someone to draw down on the ole fella. He might not be the most accurate in the land but he is really fast and efficient. I’d run and zig zag before attempting a gunfight.
 
BlackGun said:
I’d run and zig zag before attempting a gunfight.
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Bingo.

I see several problems with this drill unless the object of the exercise is perfecting the drill itself. If that's your goal, go for it. But in order to improve your time and score, you have to do it over and over and over...and that's training whether we realize it or not.

Several years ago, I read an article in a law enforcement publication on this very subject. A event in the early 70s that brought about a change in police training was at the center of it.

A state trooper...can't remember the state, but it may have been Ohio or Illinois...was killed in a gunfight under very unusual circumstances. Witnesses said that the officer fired his revolver empty...dropped the brass into his hand and made a quarter turn to the right...and stood there looking at the ground as though he was searching for something while his killer walked up to within 10 feet of him and fired a single round into his head.

Investigators finally figured out what went wrong. On the police practice and qualification range, he had performed that series of moves hundreds of times to drop his brass into a bucket. When the flag flew, his programming wouldn't let him advance until he dropped his brass into a bucket...and he died where he stood...because the bucket wasn't there.

Be careful what you do repetitively.
 
John Travis said:
Bingo.

I see several problems with this drill unless the object of the exercise is perfecting the drill itself. If that's your goal, go for it. But in order to improve your time and score, you have to do it over and over and over...and that's training whether we realize it or not.

Several years ago, I read an article in a law enforcement publication on this very subject. A event in the early 70s that brought about a change in police training was at the center of it.

A state trooper...can't remember the state, but it may have been Ohio or Illinois...was killed in a gunfight under very unusual circumstances. Witnesses said that the officer fired his revolver empty...dropped the brass into his hand and made a quarter turn to the right...and stood there looking at the ground as though he was searching for something while his killer walked up to within 10 feet of him and fired a single round into his head.

Investigators finally figured out what went wrong. On the police practice and qualification range, he had performed that series of moves hundreds of times to drop his brass into a bucket. When the flag flew, his programming wouldn't let him advance until he dropped his brass into a bucket...and he died where he stood...because the bucket wasn't there.

Be careful what you do repetitively.
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The problem was that he used the weak hand to open the cylinder like a range ninja. Had he used his strong hand he'd still be alive today!
 
John Travis said:
Bingo.

I see several problems with this drill unless the object of the exercise is perfecting the drill itself. If that's your goal, go for it. But in order to improve your time and score, you have to do it over and over and over...and that's training whether we realize it or not.

Several years ago, I read an article in a law enforcement publication on this very subject. A event in the early 70s that brought about a change in police training was at the center of it.

A state trooper...can't remember the state, but it may have been Ohio or Illinois...was killed in a gunfight under very unusual circumstances. Witnesses said that the officer fired his revolver empty...dropped the brass into his hand and made a quarter turn to the right...and stood there looking at the ground as though he was searching for something while his killer walked up to within 10 feet of him and fired a single round into his head.

Investigators finally figured out what went wrong. On the police practice and qualification range, he had performed that series of moves hundreds of times to drop his brass into a bucket. When the flag flew, his programming wouldn't let him advance until he dropped his brass into a bucket...and he died where he stood...because the bucket wasn't there.

Be careful what you do repetitively.
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I think you are missing part of the drill. It is not to be run over and over again in the same session in order to improve your score. It is supposed to be run “cold”. You just got out of the car setup the targets and go for it. It is not about perfecting the drill it is a test or tool to guage your ability to address more than one target placing more than one shot into the target.

There are some ways you could randomize the drill better but it is what it is. A test or a tool in the tool box to access where you are. It is not the end all be all of training.

You could certainly add movement to the drill and adjust time scores accordingly.
 
wvsig said:
I think you are missing part of the drill. It is not to be run over and over again in the same session in order to improve your score. It is supposed to be run “cold”. You just got out of the car setup the targets and go for it. It is not about perfecting the drill it is a test or tool to guage your ability to address more than one target placing more than one shot into the target.

There are some ways you could randomize the drill better but it is what it is. A test or a tool in the tool box to access where you are. It is not the end all be all of training.

You could certainly add movement to the drill and adjust time scores accordingly.
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You are, of course, right. I am amazed how people can read the same thing or SEE the video and come to some of the conclusions they do. He says SPECIFICALLY only COLD attempts count.
 
It's a good drill. Our local drill here was popularized by experts in arms. You turn the target around, one guy yells "he's got a gun" and 8 guys empty the magazines in unison. We call it the Cop Drill.
 
BlackGun said:
It's a good drill. Our local drill here was popularized by experts in arms. You turn the target around, one guy yells "he's got a gun" and 8 guys empty the magazines in unison. We call it the Cop Drill.
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To do this correctly 78% of all rounds fired Must be AirBalls.
 
Hopefully come Saturday morning the H20 match director (and OP of this thread) will have about 100 of us running this drill as a stage. And everyone who shoots it will be shooting it cold.
 
wvsig said:
I think you are missing part of the drill. It is not to be run over and over again in the same session in order to improve your score. It is supposed to be run “cold”.
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All real world situations are "run cold."

And if you don't practice it, how do you improve or measure your progress? And if you practice it...that's training.

That's the purpose of a drill...to perfect a series of repetitive movements. Think Rifle Drill Team.

This drill has you standing on the X, firing a proscribed number of rounds...counting rounds even though he tells you not to...into multiple targets that you transition from left to right every time you do it...and shooting to slidelock and reloading...while still standing on the X.

Firing a gun empty is a stoppage no matter how you cut it...and in the heat of the exchange, you may not realize that the gun has stopped for up to several seconds. Go ahead and ask me how I know that.

I call these "Get killed drills" because that's probably how you'll wind up if the targets are shooting back and you default to what you've practiced...and odds are heavy that you will.

Jelly Bryce was one of the first to recognize the fatal flaw of standing on the X. He killed 19 men during his career, and he always sidestepped when the fight started while he was drawing...to get himself out of the line of fire. And...horror of horrors...he also made use of the FBI Crouch because he understood that crouching was a natural human stress response.

I see this "Get killed" thing happening during games.

The shooter steps to the line, puts his hands in the surrender position and waits for an audio signal to start. Another version of standing there looking for the bucket.
 
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John Travis said:
All real world situations are "run cold."

And if you don't practice it, how do you improve or measure your progress? And if you practice it...that's training.

That's the purpose of a drill...to perfect a series of repetitive movements. Think Rifle Drill Team.

This drill has you standing on the X, firing a proscribed number of rounds...counting rounds even though he tells you not to...into multiple targets that you transition from left to right every time you do it...and shooting to slidelock and reloading...while still standing on the X.

Firing a gun empty is a stoppage no matter how you cut it...and in the heat of the exchange, you may not realize that the gun has stopped for up to several seconds. Go ahead and ask me how I know that.

I call these "Get killed drills" because that's probably how you'll wind up if the targets are shooting back and you default to what you've practiced...and odds are heavy that you will.

Jelly Bryce was one of the first to recognize the fatal flaw of standing on the X. He killed 19 men during his career, and he always sidestepped when the fight started while he was drawing...to get himself out of the line of fire. And...horror of horrors...he also made use of the FBI Crouch because he understood that crouching was a natural human stress response.

I see this "Get killed" thing happening during games.

The shooter steps to the line, puts his hands in the surrender position and waits for an audio signal to start. Another version of standing there looking for the bucket.
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And, Jelly Bryce was looking all good and dapper while he returned fire. LOL
 
"Get killed drills" Hahahaha. Awesome.
 
I find that using my weak side thumb to hit the slide release helps stabilize the gun for reacquiring my strong hand grip. Just as visually looking into the magwell helps with insertion of the new mag, looking for the slide release helps me find it. A well designed slide release might be a little quicker to find by feel with the strong hand thumb, but tenths of seconds won't make much difference in my IDPA scores at this point, especially if my strong hand thumb fumbles the release once during the competition.

In any self-defense shootout situation, I hope I'm behind cover by the time I have to reload any of the hi-cap mags I carry. If I haven't eliminated a threat after 21 rounds of 9mm JHP I carry in my P320 Tacops, I have more problems than even a half-second time saved on reloading will solve!
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
We are Cooper-Hackathorn-Taylor disciples. All of their drills are based on "COLD" tries. This is a good one. This and The Wizard will keep you busy. When you get to where you can clean these 2 "COLD" on demand, people will walk way around you and tip their hats.[see..that last right there is an attempt at humor]
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We could run this on the el prez targets now since the redecoration. It calls for 6 yard separation anyway.
 
Re: how to release the slide.

An acquaintance and instructor who spent several years with Special Ops troops at Ft. Bragg, training them and helping them improve technique, told me that the U.S. Military long ago changed it's handgun training, and using the slide stop is the method of choice.

The change came about during the first few years of combat in Afghanistan and Iraq, when a lot of troops found their guns not going properly (fully) into battery following the slide being released. Part of the problem may have been due to the fact that the climate and environment often made it necessary for those using the handguns to wear gloves (due to the cold or because of the ough, heavily graveled rocky terrain).

While I've got 15 handguns, only one or two of them allow me to easily release the slide using my strong hand thumb -- and as one of the videos shows, that may not always be a good idea. The handover method (called "slingshotting" in one of the vides), COULD, with a Beretta M9 (or any gun with the safety/decocker leaver on the slide, lead an unintended decocking of the weapon. The US training was changed, but I'm not sure that unintentional decocking alone led to the change.

The old argument that slingshotting a slide was a gross motor, while using the slide release was a fine motor skill was disproved in combat, and by folks who studied the methods more closely They're both fine motor skills -- and if you don't release the slide cleanly using either the old "slingshot" (grasping/pinching the slide from the rear) or the hand0ver release, the slide is still not always going to go cleanly into battery.

As shown in the earlier videos here, using the off hand to release the slide is potentially a more efficient technique, requiring less hand and arm travel, and not necessarily slower. And. when competing, or facing someone shooting at you, you don't have to move the gun as far away from a potential target or attacker.

When I was shooting competitively, I got to the point that I used the off hand and several fingers like a small claw as I finished inserting the mag, to release the slide. The way shown in the videos, using the offhand thumb AFTER the hand has returned to the normal "support" or shooting position makes more sense, and is obviously a more efficient technique than the one I used.

Using the old slingshot technique, in which you grasp (pinch) the rear of the slide like you do the pocket of a slinghot (with a pellet or rock loaded in it) just doesn't make sense -- as you have to position both the gun and the offhand to get it where you can bring proper forces to bear on the gun and slide. And while you're doing that, the gun is much farther away from the target/attacker.

Using the handover method with other guns may be work well -- just not with a Beretta 92/M9.
 
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I actually spoke to Vickers about this. He only uses support hand slide release on 1911s. He uses his strong hand for Glocks. Mainly because for “him” it’s easier to activate the support hand on a 1911.
 
John Travis said:
I call these "Get killed drills" because that's probably how you'll wind up if the targets are shooting back and you default to what you've practiced...and odds are heavy that you will.

The shooter steps to the line, puts his hands in the surrender position and waits for an audio signal to start. Another version of standing there looking for the bucket.
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I don't understand why some of these "competitive" shooters can't have the forethought to make up drills of their own instead of repeating the same stuff stuff every time you shoot, weekend after weekend. If you practice the same routine then it becomes just that, routine and when suddenly faced with something different you may/will freeze.

I agree with @John Travis, the biggest error I see repeated is standing on the X way too long, assuming that you ever move off it..This ain't the opening of Gunsmoke in Dodge at high noon....
 
We try to do something different all the time. Different, or a variation of a drill that we did before. Anyone can stand still and shoot at a stationary target X yards away. Shooting from cover, around obstacles, from a moving vehicle, making a transaction at an ATM, seated in a car, are just some of the different scenarios that we have done and continue to do. I have learned a lot from these.
 
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