So how do you old guys manage to shoot tight groups?

Red Marley

Red Marley

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This is a serious question. I'm talking about iron sights, no optics. Not extreme long range, say 100 yards. The rifle almost doesn't matter. By futzing around with glasses (diopter lenses on my shooting glasses) I can see the front sight OK, but when I do, an 8" target is just a fuzzy gray blob with undefined edges, almost entirely obscured by the front sight. How the heck do you put the sight in the same place twice?
 
The only other suggestion that I could make would be a set of match rifle type sights, using Gehmann adjustable irises, but that won't be cheap (around $500 for the sight bases and irises).

When shooting irons, I've always found it easiest on my aging the eyes to shoot the globe/diopter style where you align concentrinc circles.

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Can’t speak for others, but when I am shooting irons (rifle or handgun), my front sight is the only object in clear focus. Both the target and the rear sight appear blurred, to a degree, at the time of the shot.

If you are having issues with the front blade obscuring most of the bull, hold your sights off to either the right or left of the bull so you can see the entire gray “blob”. Line up the top of your front sight blade at the midway point between the top and bottom of the bull, then shift the rifle to where your sights are on the “blob”…this should get you adjusted for elevation.

Next, without moving the muzze of the rifle up or down, line up your front sight blade left/right, to where you have an equal amount of the “blob” showing on each side of the blade…this should give you the right windage.

Other than that, you could 1) try using a target with a larger aiming black. Personally, I’m not a big fan of doing this, because I like to keep the bull just as small as possible for the distance I’m shooting, but in your case, it may help and/or make a difference or 2) Find a front sight with a thinner blade.

Hope this helps.👍

I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer and there are folks on here who can explain things much clearer than me / can give better advice. Hopefully, they’ll chime in.
 
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Foist, ya must define a tight group.🤣 My expectations are less the older I get. My main criteria is did I hit the target.

The Gehmann sights are the best I have used. The various inserts for the front sight allow you to bracket the target rather that shooting at a dot.
 
Peep and globe sights set up for the target size you’re using + consistent cheek weld + consistent sling tension + laying with your NPOA oriented to the target = smallest groups.

All of the above, but a black front sight post sized appropriately for the target, held the same distance under the gray fuzzy ball = nearly as small groups.
 
Assuming your prescription is (not) in need of tweaking it’s always advisable to revisit fundamentals, ie
proper sight picture;
Front sight focus ALWAYS. The target SHOULD be slightly fuzzy and always out of focus and the rear sight ( peep) will all but disappear. With proper sight picture) the eye will automatically center the font sight within the rear aperture.
 
My father had glasses his whole life and struggled to see things forever. His doctor diagnosed him with diabetes and put him oh medication and his vision went to 20/20 without the glasses. This is the first time in 65 years that he doesn't need glasses to do anything. I never really thought about my vision being related to my health but he is proof they are connected. He's so excited he went and got a new driver's license with no restrictions on it. He can see targets farther that i can with my contacts now
 
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When I first started shooting handguns a lot, I was not impressed with my groups. A lot of questions like "where did that last two rds go". I knew I could do better. I kept practicing and I did get better. I went to the range and always on a weekday and there was usually no one there. If so, it was rifle shooters. I read and read and tried to copy what the pros were doing. I kept practicing and using different pistols I had collected. I got to where I could keep a pretty good group.
Then a friend wanted to go shooting with me. We went to the range; he brought a target stand. He set his targets at about 12 feet! OMG. I had a group on his stands that put 10 rds in 7 holes that looked like one large hole. All this time I had been practicing I had been putting my target on the 50-yard berm. I did not know you should practice at shorter distances. So maybe start shooting at 50 yards.
 
Red Marley said:
This is a serious question. I'm talking about iron sights, no optics. Not extreme long range, say 100 yards. The rifle almost doesn't matter. By futzing around with glasses (diopter lenses on my shooting glasses) I can see the front sight OK, but when I do, an 8" target is just a fuzzy gray blob with undefined edges, almost entirely obscured by the front sight. How the heck do you put the sight in the same place twice?
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Because one can't shoot well what one can't see well, my answer to your question is (unfortunately): without optics -- I DO NOT shoot tight groups at 100yds.

I just can't see well enough with irons, anymore. Instead of resisting/denying the truth of this, I simply use optics. It's what they're for (i.e. improving what can be seen and one's aim at such), after all...
 
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Thanks for all the replies; some were even helpful 😂. I should add that I have rifles with scopes and other enhanced sights, but what I'm interested in here is sighting in and shooting milsurp bolt actions and muzzleloaders, and I don't want to change the sights on them. I'll sight in at closer ranges and work on consistency. I enjoy open sights the most, but more than that I enjoy hitting what I'm shooting at!
 
Parker Hale Musketoon, 100yd, RCBS Hogdon, 43gr 3F Old Eynsford, RWS caps, beeswax/lard. Post and notch iron sights. And no, I haven't had great vision since my 20s when I was 20/10. Now I'm 20/25 in my dominant eye with an astigmatism and 20/30 in my other eye.


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Red, I too like @MacEntyre have always had great vision. About 2 years ago my groups started Opening Up...after Cataract surgery I am back to being 20 years old again. If you are limiting yourself to Irons, keep this in mind....For a man with a 32 inch sleeve, a .125 front sight on a pistol covers 17 INCHES at 50 yards...that grows to 22 inches when the light bars are included. That simply means that 2700 shooters Commonly shoot groups that are Optically IMPOSSIBLE....so don't beat Yosef up too bad.
 
Seems to me that a small diameter peep sight would help. It's the old pinhole camera effect that should greatly increase your field of focus. All the way to the target I doubt, but should make it somewhat clearer. Problem with looking through any small diameter hole is it only works in bright light. The brighter the light the smaller the hole can be and the smaller the hole the longer focus length you'll get.
 
Last month, I couldn't spell septuagenarian, now I are one. The only iron sights I can still see are the peep sights on my Garand. Those notch and post sights like on a Swedish Mauser are useless for me. Still, age and treachery can overcome youth and skill.
 
two77 said:
Last month, I couldn't spell septuagenarian, now I are one. The only iron sights I can still see are the peep sights on my Garand. Those notch and post sights like on a Swedish Mauser are useless for me. Still, age and treachery can overcome youth and skill.
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Have 'em checked...after cataract surgery.....A MIRICLE!!!
 
Dave951 said:
Parker Hale Musketoon, 100yd, RCBS Hogdon, 43gr 3F Old Eynsford, RWS caps, beeswax/lard. Post and notch iron sights. And no, I haven't had great vision since my 20s when I was 20/10. Now I'm 20/25 in my dominant eye with an astigmatism and 20/30 in my other eye.


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OK, great shooting, but I am interested in your technique (not equipment) that produces this result at 100 yards. Among the guns I'm working with is a P-H musketoon; I believe it will hit where it's aimed if the shooter can hold it on the same spot every time.
 
Shooting glasses tuned to focus on the front sight help me a lot. still cant shoot good groups but they helped me hit paper.
 
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BatteryOaksBilly said:
Red, I too like @MacEntyre have always had great vision. About 2 years ago my groups started Opening Up...after Cataract surgery I am back to being 20 years old again. If you are limiting yourself to Irons, keep this in mind....For a man with a 32 inch sleeve, a .125 front sight on a pistol covers 17 INCHES at 50 yards...that grows to 22 inches when the light bars are included. That simply means that 2700 shooters Commonly shoot groups that are Optically IMPOSSIBLE....so don't beat Yosef up too bad.
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Comparing yourself to @MacEntyre? Well, your eyes may be good but…. 🤣
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Red, I too like @MacEntyre have always had great vision. About 2 years ago my groups started Opening Up...after Cataract surgery I am back to being 20 years old again. If you are limiting yourself to Irons, keep this in mind....For a man with a 32 inch sleeve, a .125 front sight on a pistol covers 17 INCHES at 50 yards...that grows to 22 inches when the light bars are included. That simply means that 2700 shooters Commonly shoot groups that are Optically IMPOSSIBLE....so don't beat Yosef up too bad.
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Had lens implants in both eyes in 2013/14. Left eye no problem, right eye got an astigmatism lens. Great for a couple years then my right eye started going whacky again. Turns out that I developed another astigmatism in my right eye. If I look at a front post I see two of them slightly off center of each other. I just pick the post that I see the best. 🤪

The one doc I had gave me an optical oclluder and drilled a little bitty hole in the middle. It did help a little but its a pain to keep it centered on the glasses.
 
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Red Marley said:
OK, great shooting, but I am interested in your technique (not equipment) that produces this result at 100 yards. Among the guns I'm working with is a P-H musketoon; I believe it will hit where it's aimed if the shooter can hold it on the same spot every time.
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Alright, get some coffee and relax. The secret is there is no secret. You can't have technique without the gun and get what you're after and the reverse is true.

You mentioned a musketoon and black powder is my wheelhouse. There are two types of Parker Hale 'toons. One was made in Birmingham, we call those first gen. The others were assembled by Mario and Luigi from parts when EuroArms bought Parker Hale. Nearly every first gen I've seen can be made to shoot. Not so much with the spaghetti ones.

Now to load. Different guns shoot different minies to varying degrees of accuracy. There are some basic rules to follow. Minies MUST be cast from pure lead and sized to .001 under the MEASURED bore size. Powder must be real deal black, best you can get which currently is 3f Swiss accept no substitutes. Caps must be best you can get, currently RWS followed closely by Schuetzen. Lube must be from natural products that play nice chemically with black powder fouling and not some commercial concoction designed for round balls, 50/50 beeswax/lard works good with minies. Finally, be careful who you get advice from. Round ball guns are completely different critters and I have seen very few round ball guys who know their stuff on minies. There are those who will dispute what I've said but hey, go look again at the picture.

Now technique. The ignition process in a black powder gun is best defined as glacial speed. Any error in technique will be greatly magnified from a modern gun. In nearly every gun I've worked up, the best method for bench firing is straightforward. Sit as erect as possible imitating a standing posture, don't "hunker" down on the gun. Rest the back of your forward hand on the bag and grip the forearm in that hand. Rear hand at the same place every time on the wrist of the stock. Do not attempt to crush the stock in your hand. Trigger pull- one smooth quick motion to the rear. This is one place lots of noobs screw up and they will move the stock with the rear hand. KEEP your HEAD DOWN on the stock as the gun fires. You will be able to see your shot later. Finally, do not go to the spotting scope after each shot. You will subconsciously start to "chase" the group and it will open up. We'll cover offhand shooting later.

In the world of Muzzleloading, there are tons of variables in shooting. And just as in modern shooting, accuracy is all about recognizing and controlling the variables.

But hey, what do I know.....IMG_20190111_155832.jpg

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All good stuff Dave, thank you, but the problem I'm trying to solve is how to hold precisely on a fuzzy gray blob that's mostly covered by the front sight. I believe the rifle will put 'em where I aim it, but I don't believe I am consistently aiming at the same exact point on the blob!
 
Try making the shape of the blob part of your sight picture. You cant see a point, but you can see a shape. I do a pistol drill that consists of shooting at a blank backer. No holes, no marks. Just clean paper. You have to pick out center of mass on the shape and repeat that to get a good group. If you start chasing bullet holes the group opens up.
 
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Red Marley said:
All good stuff Dave, thank you, but the problem I'm trying to solve is how to hold precisely on a fuzzy gray blob that's mostly covered by the front sight. I believe the rifle will put 'em where I aim it, but I don't believe I am consistently aiming at the same exact point on the blob!
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if the target is fuzzy and has a consistent shape, you’re good. Just put the front sight in the same place in relation to the blob and you’re set. To the extent you can adjust your zero at all (with a rear sight elevator), you might find a six o’clock hold on a target of reasonable size and contrast is more consistent.

You might also try spray-on sight black or soot sight black to get more visible contrast from your front sight.

If you are group shooting for score or load development, you really do not want a zero that places your front sight directly over your point of impact. It’s too visibly “busy,” at least to me, in most lighting conditions. I have no clue how @Dave951 is getting such great results with such busy targets, but I can really only shoot black bulls on white paper with irons.

If it’s a high contrast target and it’s so blurry that it’s basically invisible, you need an optometrist or something like a Merit aperture on your glasses.

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That’s at 100 yards with a Remington 513-T and SK Rifle Match. Peep and globe setup. Lateral fliers were on me—I got tired in position and lacked consistency with my cheek weld. For reference, X-ring on a B8 is 1.695 inches.
 
Here’s another thing to consider. Many shooters only know the classic 6oclock sight picture. The problem with the 6oclock is that your point of impact will be a distance above your point of aim. If you have issues with target definition, that will absolutely affect your group size. My target might seem “busy” but with a “center” hold in my sight picture, I don’t have to compensate for impacts above the point of aim. I just center everything and shoot.

But as I said earlier, trigger technique and how you hold the rifle are critical for good groups with a muzzleloader. If you are benching it, hold it as I’ve described in your hand.
 
I can't speak to BP or ML, but Dave951 is exactly correct in terms of technique. A 6 o'clock hold for you might work well. You'll have plenty of white (paper) contrast under the bullseye to line your sights up and then raise the tip (just the tip; thats what she said) into the very bottom of the gray blob. You're concentrating on the tip of the front sight once you've lined it up. The rest is trigger control.
This may provide you the contrast you need to obtain a clearer sight picture. You just set your sights for a slightly higher POI and you'll be set, if you do everything else right. Check your NPA before every shot if you're looking for repeatable performance.
And, Battery Oaks is also right. Cataract surgery rocks for rifle vision, pistol iron sights not so much.
 
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As mentioned in the last few post, try a 6 o'clock hold. You're looking for a line of demarcation or edge. The center of a blob is not well defined. Primary focus is alignment of the gun and sights, target is last. If the sights are well aligned, then place the blob on top of the front sight. You'll have to determine where you feel the "edge" of the blob is. Try to determine a consistent edge, no matter how far from the "center" of the blob it is. Once you start shooting a consistent group, whereever that may be on the target, adjust your sights to center the group where you want it.

Many years ago, I was with a couple of PPC shooters a the range. I was watching them chew out the centers of B29 targets. They told me their method was to aim for the "neck" of the target, right were the shoulders came together, because it was easier to focus on. the big dark center of the target allowed for too much aiming error. Their front sights were modified to be just slightly more narrow than the neck at that range, so they wanted see just a little bit of the target on either side of the front sight. This aided in centering. Anyway, they optimized the visual sight picture and then regulated the impact to be inches lower at the center of the target.

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