Surplus military equipment going to the po po again

[noway2]

There are several links if you google the topic, but here is one: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-military-gear-local-police-forces/606065001/

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration Monday lifted a controversial ban on the transfer of some surplus military equipment to police departments whose battlefield-style response to rioting in a St. Louis suburb three years ago prompted a halt to the program.

The new plan takes effect immediately and fully rolls back an Obama administration executive order that blocked armored vehicles, large-caliber weapons, ammunition and other heavy equipment from being re-purposed from foreign battlefields to America's streets.

There were very few things that 0bama did that I approved of, but this was one of them. The police do NOT need this type of equipment. The claim, or rather ruse, is that it's needed to combat the riots and protests like Charlottesville, but anyone who is remotely awake knows damned well that this is an excuse and a lie. This is nothing but the "government" agents of force upping the arms race to maintain superiority over an increasingly restless population. Couple this with the increase in "civil" forfeiture, crack down on "drugs" and this "law and order" president and his lapdog Sessions are causing me to question their true motives.

There is a reason that you don't mix the military and the police because when you do, it's the People who quickly become the enemy.

 

[McDirkale]

I can tell you the interactions are getting more dangerous out here. But then again, maybe they should take away all weapons from police, nevermind that they are targeted right now.

Reading this is like reading someone saying the military in a war zone doesn't need equipment.

The world is becoming less nice everyday but the police, which I'm guessing you don't like from the post, go out there and deal with the things you criticize on a internet forum.

 

[McDirkale]

BTW, there's been 84 leo deaths this year so far, 146 last year, 141 in 2015, 151 in 2014, 127 in 2013, 140 in 2012, 183 in 2011 and 178 in 2010.

It's a cakewalk job. I could go on but it's not worth it.

 

[Chuckman]

I thought Obama threw the baby out with the bathwater. Some of it was fine; other stuff, less so.

I suppose at the end of the day I really don't care, but how many MRAPs does Mayberry PD really need?

 

[noway2]

I suppose at the end of the day I really don't care, but how many MRAPs does Mayberry PD really need?

I think the question that should be asked is why would they need an MRAP at all?

If things have degenerated that badly, it's time to call in the national guard.

 

[Chuckman]

I think the question that should be asked is why would they need an MRAP at all?

If things have degenerated that badly, it's time to call in the national guard.

I am on the fence with armor of any type. I know of situations where LEOs have needed it; time precluded calling the NG. I don't think every PD needs one, I could see it as a regional asset like EOD squads, regional HAZMAT, etc.

I am not a big fan of "because it's free" or "because we can," though.

 

[RedneckFur]

I can see some surplus equip going to departments. lights, bags, even firearms... (m9's, m4's, shotguns, etc)without big issue. But I think up-armored MRAPS, tanks, APC's, and big weapons suited to fighting an all out war is going too far.

 

[11B CIB]

BTW, there's been 84 leo deaths this year so far, 146 last year, 141 in 2015, 151 in 2014, 127 in 2013, 140 in 2012, 183 in 2011 and 178 in 2010.

It's a cakewalk job. I could go on but it's not worth it.

It's not a compulsory job. Don't like the risk? Take off the badge. There ARE good cops out there. But with ALL the wrong doing coming to light it's hard to justify giving more and more and more. Killing a homeowner in a wrong home no knock? Guess the MRAP didn't get the GPS package

 

[J R Green]

It's not a compulsory job. Don't like the risk? Take off the badge. There ARE good cops out there. But with ALL the wrong doing coming to light it's hard to justify giving more and more and more. Killing a homeowner in a wrong home no knock? Guess the MRAP didn't get the GPS package

I'm thinking you aren't so flippant about soldiers getting killed in the line of duty. That is voluntary too so F-em right?

 

[SPM]

Reading this is like reading someone saying the military in a war zone doesn't need equipment.

.

I'm thinking you aren't so flippant about soldiers getting killed in the line of duty. That is voluntary too so F-em right?

The difference between the police and the military is one is actually fighting a real war while the other only imagines it.

There's no war in the streets of America, much less a war on cops.

It simply doesn't exist. No data supports this view. In fact, it has never been safer to be a police officer in this country - and is safer now than it was in 1900.

There is not now, nor has there ever been a war on cops or a war on the streets.

It simply does not exist in reality.

The only place this silly notion lives is in the minds of police officers high on hero worship and propoganda and the defenders of the thin blue line that thinks they can do no wrong.

 

[rotorhead]

There are several links if you google the topic, but here is one: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-military-gear-local-police-forces/606065001/



There were very few things that 0bama did that I approved of, but this was one of them. The police do NOT need this type of equipment. The claim, or rather ruse, is that it's needed to combat the riots and protests like Charlottesville, but anyone who is remotely awake knows damned well that this is an excuse and a lie. This is nothing but the "government" agents of force upping the arms race to maintain superiority over an increasingly restless population. Couple this with the increase in "civil" forfeiture, crack down on "drugs" and this "law and order" president and his lapdog Sessions are causing me to question their true motives.

There is a reason that you don't mix the military and the police because when you do, it's the People who quickly become the enemy.

Agreed. It's about the one thing I liked that Obama did (the other was when he whacked Bin Laden).

I'm all for police having the means to protect themselves but these "weapons of war" have no place on our streets.

If the gubment is worried about all the excess equipment they can do what they always do with it: start some war in some shitty little region of the world and sell it off to the freedom fighters.

 

[DrPhudd]

BTW, there's been 84 leo deaths this year so far, 146 last year, 141 in 2015, 151 in 2014, 127 in 2013, 140 in 2012, 183 in 2011 and 178 in 2010.

It's a cakewalk job. I could go on but it's not worth it.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, LEO hommicides are about 5 times that many.

 

[WeepingAngel]

Agreed. It's about the one thing I liked that Obama did (the other was when he whacked Bin Laden).

I'm all for police having the means to protect themselves but these "weapons of war" have no place on our streets.

I'd like it if it wasn't a) at the end of his admin and b) only used as a stick to bend local police departments to his will (coincided VERY closely with DOJ investigating anything that smelled like "racism").

If it was a wholesale principled decision, I would agree. In the context it was applied, it was merely a lever for a Federal tyrant to influence local policies.

 

[11B CIB]

I'm thinking you aren't so flippant about soldiers getting killed in the line of duty. That is voluntary too so F-em right?

I was an infantryman. THE definition of a combat soldier. I didn't want anyone next to me that didn't WANT to be there; and there was something to be said about those who enlisted during wartime AS infantrymen, knowing what was coming. The MEN I served with also knew the risks. There are quite a few people I miss dearly, but they died doing what they loved and in some cases, they died so that others may live, and I will NEVER take that from them.

 

[noway2]

If it was a wholesale principled decision, I would agree. In the context it was applied, it was merely a lever for a Federal tyrant to influence local policies.

It can easily be argued that giving / selling them cheap military gear isn't much different. On another forum, a former cop made the statement that it is fun to dress up in battle rattle and go smash in people's doors in the middle if the night. Would you agree that getting fancy stuff like this is going to influence the local policies?

 

[Tjohnson]

I'm thinking you aren't so flippant about soldiers getting killed in the line of duty. That is voluntary too so F-em right?

That's got to be the most ignorant thing I've seen in quite some time.

A great number of occupations have hazards that come with the territory, and I think all of us hate to see someone injured or killed while performing the duties of their job. Doesn't matter if they're electricians, plumbers, carpenters, or cops.

But to compare any of those jobs listed above or any dozens of others to the men and women who have sacrificed their life for the betterment of our nation is low down and sorry.

 

[WeepingAngel]

It can easily be argued that giving / selling them cheap military gear isn't much different. On another forum, a former cop made the statement that it is fun to dress up in battle rattle and go smash in people's doors in the middle if the night. Would you agree that getting fancy stuff like this is going to influence the local policies?

Depends how it's used, and the decision is made - when the program started, no I don't think it was being used in a similar manner as there was MUCH less pressure from the federal government to coerce the actions of these agencies. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good policy, just not a coercive one.

My (only) point is this - whether or not PDs should have the "toys" is wholly immaterial to his decision making. Barry was fine with heavily armed, militarized police officers... up until they ran up against his ideological supporters. Then, and only then, was them having military equipment "problematic". It was a matter of his ideology getting smacked around by the very militarized apparatus he'd supported, not one of principle.

 

[noway2]

Anyone against this has never been on the wrong side of the tracks in South Florida. The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office definitely would benefit from an MRAP and lots of armor. Mini-mafiosos and wannabe Cartel leaders that stay under the radar of 3-letter Agencies end up falling in the laps of these guys all the time.

The " war on drugs" (and I say that dripping with disdain) was ginned up by Uncle Sugar. It is also an area that it shouldn't be involved. If it weren't for this "war" many of those cartel leaders and mini mafiosos wouldn't exist.

 

[noway2]

@WeepingAngel, I am opposed to cops having these items regardless of political ideology. As I've said elsewhere, the police are not arbiters of Liberty. They're the force arm of the politicians and these tools will be used against The People. There may be some "good" cops but it doesn't change what they are as an institution.

 

[Chuckman]

The only place this silly notion lives is in the minds of police officers high on hero worship and propoganda and the defenders of the thin blue line that thinks they can do no wrong.

You make it seem as if it is a binary choice. While I agree with your assertion ("It simply doesn't exist. No data supports this view. In fact, it has never been safer to be a police officer in this country - and is safer now than it was in 1900."), your conclusion isn't backed up with data.

 

[Meckmeister]

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, LEO hommicides are about 5 times that many.

I'm confused, which is normal these days. But does that mean homicides by cops or against cops? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[SPM]

You make it seem as if it is a binary choice. While I agree with your assertion ("It simply doesn't exist. No data supports this view. In fact, it has never been safer to be a police officer in this country - and is safer now than it was in 1900."), your conclusion isn't backed up with data.

Then by all means, show some data.

EDIT: For what it's worth, the graph above is from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund - hardly an anti-cop source.

 

[Chuckman]

Then by all means, show some data.

EDIT: For what it's worth, the graph above is from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund - hardly an anti-cop source.

By conclusion, I meant this assertion: "The only place this silly notion lives is in the minds of police officers high on hero worship and propoganda and the defenders of the thin blue line that thinks they can do no wrong."

The stats are solid.

 

[Djstorm100]

Can CFF make a police organization so we can cash in on these things? Then give them to community members? I need a MRAP for protesters M35 or a M923 are cheaper.

 

[DrPhudd]

I'm confused, which is normal these days. But does that mean homicides by cops or against cops? I'll hang up and listen.

Homicides by cops against us peons
It is actually hard to find good data, as law enforcement is not real big on reporting those numbers. The data varies depending on who you ask but everything I could find says they are winning the game without tanks...

 

[Meckmeister]

Thanks. I know reporting of any stats like this is arbritrary, especially reporting going through a government agency.

 

[Average Joe]

Killing a homeowner in a wrong home no knock?

What incident was this? I remember a post about a home owner getting shot and killed awhile back. It was when it first happened and there was a lot of unknowns at the time. I would like to go back and see what details have changed or been found as fact.

 

[Average Joe]

@WeepingAngel, I am opposed to cops having these items regardless of political ideology. As I've said elsewhere, the police are not arbiters of Liberty. They're the force arm of the politicians and these tools will be used against The People. There may be some "good" cops but it doesn't change what they are as an institution.

So the root of your problem is the politicians that make the laws the police enforce?

 

[Average Joe]

That's got to be the most ignorant thing I've seen in quite some time.

A great number of occupations have hazards that come with the territory, and I think all of us hate to see someone injured or killed while performing the duties of their job. Doesn't matter if they're electricians, plumbers, carpenters, or cops.

But to compare any of those jobs listed above or any dozens of others to the men and women who have sacrificed their life for the betterment of our nation is low down and sorry.

I don't believe that @JR Green meant the comment to disrespect to anyone who has fought for and/or died for our Country. I took it that he was making the connection that our military is all volunteer, just like law enforcement. No one wants our military to be under equipped but others felt its ok for law enforcement to be under equipped. He was just pointing out the double standard.

 

[SPM]

I don't believe that @JR Green meant the comment to disrespect to anyone who has fought for and/or died for our Country. I took it that he was making the connection that our military is all volunteer, just like law enforcement. No one wants our military to be under equipped but others felt its ok for law enforcement to be under equipped. He was just pointing out the double standard.

It's not a gosh darned double standard.

Domestic police not having armor (as in vehicles) isn't under equipping law enforcement. They aren't warfighters.

This idea that LE needs to be equipped to fight ISIS, the Taliban or al Qaida is absurd.

 

[Average Joe]

It's not a gosh darned double standard.

Domestic police not having armor isn't under equipping law enforcement. They aren't warfighters.

This idea that LE needs to be equipped to fight ISIS, the Taliban or al Qaida is absurd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

Above is the very example you say doesn't exist (that they do not need specialized military gear). There are other situations that some not all military equipment is useful to protect officers and citizens. If you would like to have a civil conversation about it I will be happy to do so. There is no reason to cuss in a post with me. I have not nor would disrespect anyone with a different opinion from mine.

 

[Chuckman]

So I would respectfully ask, where is the line? Can we take away body armor, because, you know, the mil had it first? How about semi-automatic handguns? What about the M998?

I am not calling for militarization of the police

It's not a gosh darned double standard.

Domestic police not having armor (as in vehicles) isn't under equipping law enforcement. They aren't warfighters.

This idea that LE needs to be equipped to fight ISIS, the Taliban or al Qaida is absurd.

Been to Miami? Detroit? South central Los Angeles? I think a regional agency with an armored vehicle is a good idea. I think it is a better idea is to have up-armored patrol cars.

I didn't know that Hummers equated to fighting the Taliban. I didn't know that getting Surplus in force was the same as fighting Isis.

 

[11B CIB]

What incident was this? I remember a post about a home owner getting shot and killed awhile back. It was when it first happened and there was a lot of unknowns at the time. I would like to go back and see what details have changed or been found as fact.

There have been quite a few in the last year alone

 

[J R Green]

So I would respectfully ask, where is the line? Can we take away body armor, because, you know, the mil had it first? How about semi-automatic handguns? What about the M998?

I am not calling for militarization of the police


Been to Miami? Detroit? South central Los Angeles? I think a regional agency with an armored vehicle is a good idea. I think it is a better idea is to have up-armored patrol cars.

I didn't know that Hummers equated to fighting the Taliban. I didn't know that getting Surplus in force was the same as fighting Isis.

He just against the mis-appropriation of military culture.

 

[SSgt75]

I am not against the government getting rid of military surplus. You can find lots of it on Midway, Natchez, Sportsman's Guide websites as well as other places around the net. Make it available to anyone who wants to buy it at market value. I'd love a good Ma-Deuce and about 10,000 rounds at yard sale prices. maybe parking an M1-A Abrams tank in my front yard would slow down the idiots that think a gravel road is a race track. How about some MRAPs on Gunbroker? If it's good enough for the police, it's good enough for us Patriots. (Or should be).

 

[Tjohnson]

I don't believe that @JR Green meant the comment to disrespect to anyone who has fought for and/or died for our Country. I took it that he was making the connection that our military is all volunteer, just like law enforcement. No one wants our military to be under equipped but others felt its ok for law enforcement to be under equipped. He was just pointing out the double standard.

I'm making the connection that every job in America is volunteer! Doesn't matter what profession you choose, the point is you CHOOSE it for yourself. The only reason I personally believe military deaths matter more than others is that the occupation they are serving is the more important than all the others, i.e. the work they do benefits literally every person in the country. Whereas if a cop does exceptionally well, those in his jurisdiction may benefit.

ETA: Do not read this as me being anti-cop, I'm just anti-cop thinks he's comparable to military.

 

[SPM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

Above is the very example you say doesn't exist (that they do not need specialized military gear). There are other situations that some not all military equipment is useful to protect officers and citizens. If you would like to have a civil conversation about it I will be happy to do so. There is no reason to cuss in a post with me. I have not nor would disrespect anyone with a different opinion from mine.

I'm sorry, I thought civil conversation was tossed to the wind whenever you introduce your straw man as the position of the opposing viewpoint.

And yes, I cuss. A lot sometimes. Get over it.

He just against the mis-appropriation of military culture.

Shhhh..... it's not nice to interrupt when the adults are having a conversation.

 

[Average Joe]

I'm making the connection that every job in America is volunteer! Doesn't matter what profession you choose, the point is you CHOOSE it for yourself. The only reason I personally believe military deaths matter more than others is that the occupation they are serving is the more important than all the others, i.e. the work they do benefits literally every person in the country. Whereas if a cop does exceptionally well, those in his jurisdiction may benefit.

ETA: Do not read this as me being anti-cop, I'm just anti-cop thinks he's comparable to military.

Valid point, you are correct about the amount of people that are effected by both professions. I do not believe your statement is anti-cop. Also for the record I do not believe being a officer makes me anymore important than anyone else. I pride myself on being a servant to my community, not its master.

 

[Elenaidan]

I can tell you the interactions are getting more dangerous out here. But then again, maybe they should take away all weapons from police, nevermind that they are targeted right now.

Reading this is like reading someone saying the military in a war zone doesn't need equipment.

The world is becoming less nice everyday but the police, which I'm guessing you don't like from the post, go out there and deal with the things you criticize on a internet forum.

Well brother. I may be in the opposite camp. I think we should arm every law abiding person to the teeth and let them handle the scum affecting their communities. Evil persist when we do nothing and look away. I am thankful for the Po Po. I want them trained and prepared. Their lives are every bit as important as my own. I will support them in every way when they need to defend themselves. Unfortunately that same grace is often not returned to those of us who are not charged with peace keeping from the Local gov, State, or Feds. I have had friends and family murdered by evil people. SO I say use what you need to meet the threat. If that means riot gear, up-armored trucks, or other items. So long as there is a proven need I am good with it.

On the other side of that coin is when you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So we should all be equal. If you can have it, we should have it.

 

[Average Joe]

I'm sorry, I thought civil conversation was tossed to the wind whenever you introduce your straw man as the position of the opposing viewpoint.

And yes, I cuss. A lot sometimes. Get over it.



Shhhh..... it's not nice to interrupt when the adults are having a conversation.

No worries, I really do enjoying opposing points of view. It makes me research and think about my values and beliefs.

Straw man, is that from a sovereign point of view or beliefs?